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Author Topic: Lightning Network ideal for in-game currency in MMO games?  (Read 339 times)
Kprawn
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April 17, 2018, 03:44:58 PM
Merited by suchmoon (1)
 #1

Do you think the Lightning Network is fast and cheap enough to be used as a in-game currency within some of these MMO

games? When will we see our first game with Lightning Network payments? The popular MMO games have millions of users

and millions of daily transactions. Do you think the LN is ready for that kind of adoption? The whole idea with the LN is to

remove the micro transactions and to do them off-chain and MMO games are a ideal target for that. What do you think?

 
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April 17, 2018, 05:45:10 PM
 #2

I think the LN is definetely a good way for realizing such a MMO currency system.

But i doubt wether this is what game publisher want.
They could simply use a centralized system (e.g. buy ingame currency with btc) to earn more from people who aren't even going to spend every last 'cent'.
It is definetely more lucrative for them to realize it that way than using a decentralized system.

At the current state the LN is not ready yet. It is still in beta and still has to be proven stable and secure before it is going to be used for 'mainstream' payments.

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April 17, 2018, 05:46:45 PM
 #3

1. If on-chain fees which used to open/close channel and refill balance isn't too high ($.1 or less), i think LN is fast and cheap for in-game currency or micro-transaction.
2. The real question is finding developer who wants to implement LN on their online games and find out which online game community who would use Bitcoin in LN layer.
3. IMO, I think LN isn't ready since there aren't any friendly LN wallet which can help user on unexpected cases such as can't find route and too low balance/fee where most user can't understand.
4. Great idea. I don't see any big problem for user if they only sent bitcoin (one-way) since that means they don't need to online 24/7 (or use 3rd party services) to see whether other peer try to cheat by broadcast earlier HLTC.

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April 17, 2018, 06:53:33 PM
 #4

LN transactions are incredibly fast, from what I've seen it takes under one minute to get your transaction to be confirmed.
If this were implemented on MMO, the currency should arrive by the time the player closes their payment window.

2. The real question is finding developer who wants to implement LN on their online games and find out which online game community who would use Bitcoin in LN layer.
I doubt any AAA company would implement this on their games, unless its part of the game's theme (Watch Dog 3?)
It would take an indie developer whose willing to experiment with LN and implement it all-together.

3. IMO, I think LN isn't ready since there aren't any friendly LN wallet which can help user on unexpected cases such as can't find route and too low balance/fee where most user can't understand.
LN itself are still new, it is understandable that no friendly wallet exists, but as the technology matured, there will be LN Wallet popping out.
It just takes time.
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April 17, 2018, 09:04:12 PM
 #5

Do you think the Lightning Network is fast and cheap enough to be used as a in-game currency within some of these MMO

games? When will we see our first game with Lightning Network payments? The popular MMO games have millions of users

and millions of daily transactions. Do you think the LN is ready for that kind of adoption? The whole idea with the LN is to

remove the micro transactions and to do them off-chain and MMO games are a ideal target for that. What do you think?
Honestly, I think it will be a good idea because with this Lightning Network, people can make quick payments without waiting their transactions to be confirmed, I bet that sooner few new games will start to use the LN in-game.

Currently, i used bitrefill to recharge my phone using bitcoin, I am surprised that this site use the Lightning Network, I got my fund within few seconds, it's really amazing.
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April 17, 2018, 09:42:55 PM
 #6

I think the LN is definetely a good way for realizing such a MMO currency system.

But i doubt wether this is what game publisher want.
They could simply use a centralized system (e.g. buy ingame currency with btc) to earn more from people who aren't even going to spend every last 'cent'.
It is definetely more lucrative for them to realize it that way than using a decentralized system.

At the current state the LN is not ready yet. It is still in beta and still has to be proven stable and secure before it is going to be used for 'mainstream' payments.

I could well imagine a game that did build itself around a decentralised currency becoming a monstrous success. It would instantly open itself up to a whole new breed of players and spawn a thriving in game economy that would morph into something truly transformative.

Current game developers are pretty dim to discount this as a selling point. Then again they could still act as gatekeepers and have undue influence over players and their ability to earn and trade. They'd wield far too much power.

We'll probably have to wait until there are open source and collectively hosted and maintained artificial environments before the potential is there, but when it is it's going to be amazing to witness.

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April 18, 2018, 07:03:58 AM
Merited by suchmoon (1)
 #7

I think these game developers are more focussed on "selling" their own game tokens than having to deal with Bitcoin and it's capped coins. Just imagine if you had the ability to create tokens, by just editing and configuring a few parameters in your own database. <Infinite supply of tokens>

You also do not have to worry about spam attacks and confirmation delays. Your main focus is just to protect your proprietary database and the generation of the game tokens. <not getting hacked>

The Payments are handled by Banks and PayPal, so you do not have to protect a wallet or cold storage. The tax implications are also easy, because the payment services are dealing with the complexity of currency conversion. You also deal with something that are already defined as a currency. <Not like Bitcoin that are not accepted as a currency in most countries>

Is the LN capable of handling that kind of volume? Nobody knows, because it is still experimental technology.  Huh 


 
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April 18, 2018, 07:46:36 AM
 #8

I think these game developers are more focussed on "selling" their own game tokens than having to deal with Bitcoin and it's capped coins. Just imagine if you had the ability to create tokens, by just editing and configuring a few parameters in your own database. <Infinite supply of tokens>

You also do not have to worry about spam attacks and confirmation delays. Your main focus is just to protect your proprietary database and the generation of the game tokens. <not getting hacked>

The Payments are handled by Banks and PayPal, so you do not have to protect a wallet or cold storage. The tax implications are also easy, because the payment services are dealing with the complexity of currency conversion. You also deal with something that are already defined as a currency. <Not like Bitcoin that are not accepted as a currency in most countries>

Is the LN capable of handling that kind of volume? Nobody knows, because it is still experimental technology.  Huh 

I think the largest volume MMO games have been seen to be suitable for Ethereum-based token transactions - and that's a lot less than the capacity of LN. Of course, Cryptokitties and now POWH are showing that on-chain transacting isn't going to be good for games who don't want to annoy players with delays and spiking fees.

You're right though, most MMORPGs now are reliant on the same in-game currency models (expanding them as the only way to attain customer loyalty). Player attrition is the focus of their attentions but if LN could be used to facilitate that, I don't see why games wouldn't want to implement it. They don't always have to deal with complicated US regulations too... there are quite willing markets in Latin America (2nd fastest growing gamer community).

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April 18, 2018, 08:04:32 AM
 #9

Remember that before Steam was accepting Bitcoin as a mode of payment but there comes a time where they pull off Bitcoin in their system and that is because of expensive transactions as well as their volatility. Now that the "expensive" part is solve there is still volatility left to handle. This businesses care more about getting their full cut done but when Bitcoin starts falling down from 20,000$ it looks like they it is not achievable for them. Remember they are still basing their games off the dollar and sometimes they are getting lesser after the payment is done. This is what other businesses have to risk if they want to accept cryptocurrencies as a mode of payment.

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April 18, 2018, 12:25:59 PM
Merited by suchmoon (1)
 #10

Remember that before Steam was accepting Bitcoin as a mode of payment but there comes a time where they pull off Bitcoin in their system and that is because of expensive transactions as well as their volatility. Now that the "expensive" part is solve there is still volatility left to handle. This businesses care more about getting their full cut done but when Bitcoin starts falling down from 20,000$ it looks like they it is not achievable for them. Remember they are still basing their games off the dollar and sometimes they are getting lesser after the payment is done. This is what other businesses have to risk if they want to accept cryptocurrencies as a mode of payment.

Except that merchants like Steam didn't *really* accept Bitcoin. They merely used a third-party payment processor that accepted Bitcoin. Lots of merchants claim the same, but never actually see a single satoshi or even ever hold a Bitcoin wallet. They get everything fully settled in fiat - had they been accepting actual Bitcoins since 2016, they'd probably have been so rich just from holding BTC.

Like you said, though, they should be basing everything on BTC now if they really want to step away from fiat.

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April 18, 2018, 01:34:34 PM
 #11

Now that the "expensive" part is solve there is still volatility left to handle. This businesses care more about getting their full cut done but when Bitcoin starts falling down from 20,000$ it looks like they it is not achievable for them. Remember they are still basing their games off the dollar and sometimes they are getting lesser after the payment is done. This is what other businesses have to risk if they want to accept cryptocurrencies as a mode of payment.

The in game earnings are the domain of the players, not the service provider. They'll always charge in dollars as that's what their outgoings are too.

But you're also right. I'm sure many a player would go squealing to them. That's why it makes more sense to create something from scratch by the players and for the players who understand what the deal is from the start.

If a corporate game included crypto they'd rapidly find themselves becoming some sort of exchange and that's a head ache no one needs.

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April 18, 2018, 03:15:04 PM
 #12

Now that the "expensive" part is solve there is still volatility left to handle. This businesses care more about getting their full cut done but when Bitcoin starts falling down from 20,000$ it looks like they it is not achievable for them. Remember they are still basing their games off the dollar and sometimes they are getting lesser after the payment is done. This is what other businesses have to risk if they want to accept cryptocurrencies as a mode of payment.

The in game earnings are the domain of the players, not the service provider. They'll always charge in dollars as that's what their outgoings are too.

But you're also right. I'm sure many a player would go squealing to them. That's why it makes more sense to create something from scratch by the players and for the players who understand what the deal is from the start.

If a corporate game included crypto they'd rapidly find themselves becoming some sort of exchange and that's a head ache no one needs.

Well using one Crypto currency that can be used on all the different MMORPGs might be a advantage for both the players

and the developers. The exchanges already exist for Bitcoin, so there are no new untested services needed. I think it would

be great to use my bitcoins in every MMORPGs I play. You can farm bitcoins in the one game and use them in other games,

where farming is not possible.  Smiley

 
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April 19, 2018, 07:04:42 AM
 #13

I think these game developers are more focussed on "selling" their own game tokens than having to deal with Bitcoin and it's capped coins. Just imagine if you had the ability to create tokens, by just editing and configuring a few parameters in your own database. <Infinite supply of tokens>

You also do not have to worry about spam attacks and confirmation delays. Your main focus is just to protect your proprietary database and the generation of the game tokens. <not getting hacked>

The Payments are handled by Banks and PayPal, so you do not have to protect a wallet or cold storage. The tax implications are also easy, because the payment services are dealing with the complexity of currency conversion. You also deal with something that are already defined as a currency. <Not like Bitcoin that are not accepted as a currency in most countries>

Is the LN capable of handling that kind of volume? Nobody knows, because it is still experimental technology.  Huh 

I think the largest volume MMO games have been seen to be suitable for Ethereum-based token transactions - and that's a lot less than the capacity of LN. Of course, Cryptokitties and now POWH are showing that on-chain transacting isn't going to be good for games who don't want to annoy players with delays and spiking fees.

You're right though, most MMORPGs now are reliant on the same in-game currency models (expanding them as the only way to attain customer loyalty). Player attrition is the focus of their attentions but if LN could be used to facilitate that, I don't see why games wouldn't want to implement it. They don't always have to deal with complicated US regulations too... there are quite willing markets in Latin America (2nd fastest growing gamer community).

You have brought up a very good point here. In a way, these game developers wants to force people to use their in-game currency or token, to prevent them from leaving. They need something that would keep people playing the same game and not jumping from one game to the next.

So, if they used Bitcoin as a "default" currency in all games, people will jump from the one game to the next and they might lose players.

I think it would be quite the opposite though, because a wider target market will attract more Bitcoiners to games that accept it as a in-game currency. < I personally like the convenience of using one currency for all my games >

You made a very cool statement there.  Wink

 
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April 21, 2018, 02:52:44 PM
 #14

I think it will be really cool if in-game-currency uses bitcoin,
Instead of getting 500 Gold, gamers can get 500 Satoshi
Then items can be purchased with Satoshi
Then the millionaire in-game also become millionaire in reality lol!

The dream...

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April 21, 2018, 09:07:24 PM
 #15

I think it will be really cool if in-game-currency uses bitcoin,
Instead of getting 500 Gold, gamers can get 500 Satoshi
Then items can be purchased with Satoshi
Then the millionaire in-game also become millionaire in reality lol!

The dream...

The problem is, if this becomes mainstream and all MMOs start to use Bitcoin, then the price will skyrocket and in the end 1

Satoshi might end up costing you $1. Yes, it will be good for investors/hoarders like us, but it will be pretty expensive for the

millions of gamers out there. The gamers hate us already, because we are buying all the GPUs for Crypto mining.  Roll Eyes

 
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April 21, 2018, 09:10:43 PM
 #16

The problem is, if this becomes mainstream and all MMOs start to use Bitcoin, then the price will skyrocket and in the end 1

Satoshi might end up costing you $1. Yes, it will be good for investors/hoarders like us, but it will be pretty expensive for the

millions of gamers out there. The gamers hate us already, because we are buying all the GPUs for Crypto mining.  Roll Eyes

Pricing would have to remain in the day's dollar value I presume otherwise the whole thing would seize up. I don't know where that would leave you if you wanted to offload an item that was suddenly massively valuable in BTC terms if you'd paid peanuts in satoshis a few months back.

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April 22, 2018, 01:02:31 AM
 #17

Do you think the Lightning Network is fast and cheap enough to be used as a in-game currency within some of these MMO

games? When will we see our first game with Lightning Network payments? The popular MMO games have millions of users

and millions of daily transactions. Do you think the LN is ready for that kind of adoption? The whole idea with the LN is to

remove the micro transactions and to do them off-chain and MMO games are a ideal target for that. What do you think?


Game designers create in-game currency and economy for way more reasons than just transactions speed/fees, the point of in-game money is to reward players for playing the game and game companies obviously can't reward players with real money, because it will be unsustainable and attract botters. What developers can do is to simply use Bitcoin as one of their payment methods and then allow players to sell their in-game items/currency on in-game market for Bitcoin. But they will still have to fight with bots, because bots easily ruin game experience for honest players, and in the end games succeed or fail basing on their quality, not some flashy features like blockchain and cryptocurrencies. It also might be the case that it's not profitable for game companies to allow p2p real money market, for example Blizzard have scrapped their real-money auction house in Diablo 3, and Valve made most Dota 2 items untradable.

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April 22, 2018, 01:08:48 AM
 #18

Do you think the Lightning Network is fast and cheap enough to be used as a in-game currency within some of these MMO

games? When will we see our first game with Lightning Network payments? The popular MMO games have millions of users

and millions of daily transactions. Do you think the LN is ready for that kind of adoption? The whole idea with the LN is to

remove the micro transactions and to do them off-chain and MMO games are a ideal target for that. What do you think?


Game designers create in-game currency and economy for way more reasons than just transactions speed/fees, the point of in-game money is to reward players for playing the game and game companies obviously can't reward players with real money, because it will be unsustainable and attract botters. What developers can do is to simply use Bitcoin as one of their payment methods and then allow players to sell their in-game items/currency on in-game market for Bitcoin. But they will still have to fight with bots, because bots easily ruin game experience for honest players, and in the end games succeed or fail basing on their quality, not some flashy features like blockchain and cryptocurrencies. It also might be the case that it's not profitable for game companies to allow p2p real money market, for example Blizzard have scrapped their real-money auction house in Diablo 3, and Valve made most Dota 2 items untradable.

What kind of havoc can bots get up to? Presumably the really obvious and odious ones can be nuked with ease.

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April 22, 2018, 01:32:11 AM
 #19


What kind of havoc can bots get up to? Presumably the really obvious and odious ones can be nuked with ease.

If you are using Bitcoin as your in-game currency, you will be just giving away free money to botters. If in-game currency can be traded for Bitcoin on p2p market, then bots will also do a lot of damage, they will crash the price of in-game currency so honest players won't be able to get proportionally rewarded for their time spent and the game will overall feel like pay to win, which most players hate. And bots can't be nuked, you can ban some, but there will always be more and more, especially if they bring quick returns.

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April 22, 2018, 03:14:32 AM
Merited by Thirdspace (1), athanz88 (1)
 #20

Not as an in-game currency, that's a horrible idea even if LN became free of transaction charge.
Lightning Network can be used as a payment method to purchase in-game credits an alternative of credit cards and game cards.

The best candidate of all the cryptocurrency-related technology we have now for in-game currency is: Smart Contract - Tokens.
Potentially, it can make the in-game economy hack-proof, hyper inflation-proof and duplication-proof.
Too-much-proof but imagine if an item like a Rare Sword can be limited to 20 units represented by a token with a hard cap of 20, the same limitation can be applied in the game's currency using another token (Initial supply will be distributed among NPC traders).
The problem is trading them, it's going to be slow, so the whole game must act like an exchange when it comes to trading items and currency, nothing is traded onchain within the game, but the items can be traded outside the game if they requested to take it out (withraw).

LN however, can't be used as part of a game's economy.

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