Does not it bother anyone that BTC value increasing too fast?

[DeathAndTaxes]

It amazes me how short sighted people can be.

Well it is easy to be "short sighted" when pushing an agenda. 

[goose20]

It may be time to accept the fact that Bitcoin is not about anything other than making as much money hoarding and speculating as possible.  Everything else is just sales market pitch to get more people buying in, to swell the bubbles and feed those at the top of the pyramid. Most everyone else is going to be bagholders, sooner or later.  This is a rerun with fancier coding.  I guess I should just say, "thanks" and make sure I don't get caught holding one of those bags.   

Wow. Someone still living in reality. I'm impressed. Not too many left on this forum. After all, hope spring is eternal.

I like your comments Coinseeker. Must be hard to make such comments with so many people having such a bullish view on this 'currency'.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Yes it worries me a lot. Only speculators and short-term hoarders like bubbles, merchants generally hate them and I am one.

Rise in value is welcome as masses adopt the currency, but that rise has to be no more than 5% per year. Otherwise, it encourages hoarding and greatly discourages trading (which is, you know, the whole point of currency). And when a bubble pops Bitcoin will receive another dosage of negative press which will offset it's mainstream adoption again. In the end it's merchants who accept Bitcoin, that can make it a currency, not speculators, and merchants will not accept it, if it's jumping in value so wildly.

The volume on the exchanges is paper thin, and all it takes is one guy with a 1000 BTC suddenly deciding to liquidate his holdings, and then all this greed of hoarders, that you see on the boards here, will be replaced with fear and then - another crash, long-term damaging Bitcoin once again.

If a merchant is accepting bitcoins as payment, and uses a payment provider like BitPay, not one satoshi is either gained nor lost due to having the fiat equivalent sent to their banking institute, if that's the way they have sales set up through BitPay, oppose to having them sent to another address in the merchant's control. If the later, then BitPay wouldn't necessarily be needed, with the exception of having a better interface in place.

Your concern is valid if paid via bitcoins to your wallet address and waiting hours/days to convert, otherwise a $100 sale puts $100, sans the ~1% fee, into your bank account, usually within 24 hours. It works the same way as if using PayPal, but without a 3.9% + $.35 fee structure or fear of chargebacks.

~TMIBTCITW

[Morbid]

its highly likely that what we are seeing now is bunch of people investing on the hype without knowing much of bitcoin history. they probably still doubt its legitimacy and afraid of it going down. but then we have bunch of experienced users who seen it all and sitting on cash. once exchanges dry out and markets become very tiny and vulnerable (and expensive) all you will need is a whale dumping their coins bringing price down. in panic we will have bunch of newbs selling in panic of collapse. as we go down the experienced users will be watching closely to pick up on threshold price they are comfortable with. therefore earlier users will want it lower than later users as they came into game as the price was relatively high already. i believe we will be crashing, though times are different. more and more people are gaining trust in bitcoins nowdays therefore recovery will be almost instant with another bubble forming. fun times.

[Morbid]

by the way. where would i find info on how much different exchanges hold? or maybe total number of how much they sell/buy. that will truly indicate to us how weak those exchanges are at the moment and when wales are highly likely to sell. it seems the quicker we go up, the more people start hoarding, the less bitcoins get to the market. we need slow, stable growth for this to succeed. so maybe less media exposure would serve us better at this given moment to gain international credibility as a solid investment. It could be that bitcoin is being attacked in such way so public is being encouraged to pump it and then get burned - as result abandoning this idea. since negative coverage didn’t work much – now the tactic has been changed.

[windjc]

It may be time to accept the fact that Bitcoin is not about anything other than making as much money hoarding and speculating as possible.  Everything else is just sales market pitch to get more people buying in, to swell the bubbles and feed those at the top of the pyramid. Most everyone else is going to be bagholders, sooner or later.  This is a rerun with fancier coding.  I guess I should just say, "thanks" and make sure I don't get caught holding one of those bags.   

Wow. Someone still living in reality. I'm impressed. Not too many left on this forum. After all, hope spring is eternal.

I like your comments Coinseeker. Must be hard to make such comments with so many people having such a bullish view on this 'currency'.

The "reality" is the world is changing. And as much as some, like yourself, want to criticize the rise of price of BTC on speculation, all new technology is, to some great degree, speculative. That's why venture capitalists are called venture capitalists.

What's gets me is the shortsightedness of this viewpoint. First of all, it assumes that BTC's great value is in its ability to be (or not be) a viable worldwide currency. There is not necessarily a great argument that indeed BTC's greatest possibility is as a currency to begin with.

But EVEN if that is true, to assume that a decentralized currency could be have price stability when it is but a few years old, is ridiculous. It's like screaming at a baby for not being able to do calculus. It just does not make sense.

[tvbcof]

its highly likely that what we are seeing now is bunch of people investing on the hype without knowing much of bitcoin history. they probably still doubt its legitimacy and afraid of it going down. but then we have bunch of experienced users who seen it all and sitting on cash. once exchanges dry out and markets become very tiny and vulnerable (and expensive) all you will need is a whale dumping their coins bringing price down. in panic we will have bunch of newbs selling in panic of collapse. as we go down the experienced users will be watching closely to pick up on threshold price they are comfortable with. therefore earlier users will want it lower than later users as they came into game as the price was relatively high already. i believe we will be crashing, though times are different. more and more people are gaining trust in bitcoins nowdays therefore recovery will be almost instant with another bubble forming. fun times.

I'm a little doubtful that experienced users will be buying on crashes in great quantity.  Many of them probably have a lot of BTC and are feeling over-extended due to the price rise.  That's the boat I'm in.  I'm selling but not buying even though my confidence in the solution is as high as it ever has been (in terms of getting rich...not necessarily in terms of politics.)  The next collapse will see me switching from sell mode to hold mode, but it would take a fall to below $2.00 in the absence of any defect to turn me into a buyer again.  I'll be shocked to see that.

Of course some experienced users might be traders and willing to play the markets, but I am sure that a lot of them are not.

[windjc]

its highly likely that what we are seeing now is bunch of people investing on the hype without knowing much of bitcoin history. they probably still doubt its legitimacy and afraid of it going down. but then we have bunch of experienced users who seen it all and sitting on cash. once exchanges dry out and markets become very tiny and vulnerable (and expensive) all you will need is a whale dumping their coins bringing price down. in panic we will have bunch of newbs selling in panic of collapse. as we go down the experienced users will be watching closely to pick up on threshold price they are comfortable with. therefore earlier users will want it lower than later users as they came into game as the price was relatively high already. i believe we will be crashing, though times are different. more and more people are gaining trust in bitcoins nowdays therefore recovery will be almost instant with another bubble forming. fun times.

I'm a little doubtful that experienced users will be buying on crashes in great quantity.  Many of them probably have a lot of BTC and are feeling over-extended due to the price rise.  That's the boat I'm in.  I'm selling but not buying even though my confidence in the solution is as high as it ever has been (in terms of getting rich...not necessarily in terms of politics.)  The next collapse will see me switching from sell mode to hold mode, but it would take a fall to below $2.00 in the absence of any defect to turn me into a buyer again.  I'll be shocked to see that.

Of course some experienced users might be traders and willing to play the markets, but I am sure that a lot of them are not.

If you have tens of thousands of coins, this makes sense.  I mean if BTC were to reach a 100 billion dollar market cap one day, there might not be much difference for the average person whether they have $250 million or $75 million. So selling a majority of your holding at price points that allows you to have the lifestyle you want now, while mitigating your long term risk in case bitcoin goes down the rabbit hole, makes sense.

I, for one, like the idea of large bitcoin holders selling the majority of their coins over time. I think it provides more liquidity and allows the exchanges and other future agents of trade to give us correct valuations, instead of people always screaming speculation from the rooftops.

[dominicwin]

At the moment, over the course of the lifetime of me selling my BTC, I am way way way into profit. Now I have started to gather up BTC again and I strongly believe now the prices for BTC we are seeing increasing are nowhere near a plateau.

[tvbcof]

If you have tens of thousands of coins, this makes sense.  I mean if BTC were to reach a 100 billion dollar market cap one day, there might not be much difference for the average person whether they have $250 million or $75 million. So selling a majority of your holding at price points that allows you to have the lifestyle you want now, while mitigating your long term risk in case bitcoin goes down the rabbit hole, makes sense.

You ^nailed _it on all counts with respect to my situation (with fuzz for exact numbers.)

I, for one, like the idea of large bitcoin holders selling the majority of their coins over time. I think it provides more liquidity and allows the exchanges and other future agents of trade to give us correct valuations, instead of people always screaming speculation from the rooftops.

True indeed.  Since my first real exposure to Bitcoin, a really big problem in my mind was the GINI index.  I've yet to figure out a solution to that, and suspect that there basically is none.  But certain things could help.

Early on I was drawn to Bitcoin because I hypothesized that if large holders abused their situation, the small holders could in theory revolt simply by changing software.  In this way Bitcoin is vastly superior to gold.  This is why the GINI thing bugs me.  That is to say, maybe I am right

I was buying down into late 2011.  At that time I honestly felt that I was playing a valuable role by soaking up excess liquidity in a time of significant crisis.  I ended up with far more BTC than I expected to have.  Of course my primary desire was to get rich, but if I can both get rich and buffer out some of the volatility at the same time, I'm happy to oblige.

[beetcoin]

it definitely concerns me. like everyone, i don't know how much of it is attributed to actual utility of BTC vs. speculation. and also like most, i suspect that its growth has been due more to speculation than utility, although utility has improved a great deal within the past few months.

[Ibian]

Define "too fast".

[DobZombie]

Everything will be fine ...

Don't jinx it!

[rogue13]

This is the best explanation I have come across so far. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHUPPYzzZrI

[mootinator]

...deflation prevents spending...

...and that's why nobody ever bought a computer. They're always getting cheaper and more powerful so everyone is still waiting to buy one.

[AuroraHF]

There is a big game maybe bigger than btc? Somehow value rising continuously. This never been happen before. I see that everybody happy with that. But this a baloon and when it is end damage maybe bigger than expections. Everybody speaking about bitcoin on tv, on newspapers etc. Many people investing to bitcoin. Many people will loose their thrust after that big fall.

What you thing? Someone trying to kill Bitcoin forever?

I think once this bubble pops the people will make more bubbles! In general people like bubbles. 

Bubbles are pretty awesome.

Generally I'm not too worried, I'm just going to sell my BTC now and wait for a correction so I can purchase again.

[lightfoot]

As you're watching this bubble, check out the "stupidity forum", specifically Ebay. When old BFL FPGA units go from selling for $70 to $150+ for an 800 MH unit, you know people are being stupid.

When Crock Erupters go from $8 to $20+, you know people are being stupid.

Mining contracts? Yep, stupid.

Myself? I picked up 4 bfl chips for about $100 and am putting them on my $169.00 Jally. Got two on, hashing 16gh now. One more tomorrow, one more after I drop $20 for a set of heat sinks for the FETs.

Smart. 18gh or 800mh or 1.8gh. Where do you spend your $120?

C

[Coinseeker]

What the hell do you expect dude?

Your arguments suggest no open source decentralized currency could ever be effective, because there is no way in hell you are going to give people the opportunity to invest in an open limited technology that is also a potential useful currency and NOT have MASSIVE fluctuations and volatility in its adoption phase.

I mean you are arguing against Bitcoin as a currency because of it's price volatility.

Then just go promote fiat. Or a centralized Ripple currency or ask Google to make Google coins. Because there is absolutely positively no way around the fact that disruptive technologies grow exponentially and with exponential growth you WILL have extreme volatility for months and years.

It amazes me how short sighted people can be.

And currency is only 1 of a myriad of potential globally disruptive aspects of the btc technology. Amazing.

It's not about being short sighted, it's just the belief that deflationary currency is not going to work.  Aside from the fact It just doesn't solve any of the world's monetary problems, it looks at government as if it's the main problem and that to me is the short sighted aspect of Bitcoin.  We still have a currency that is controlled by few and is easily manipulated so, even IF Bitcoin were to somehow replace the dollar, nothing changes but the names on the mansions.  Since most currency isn't created by the government, it's created by banks in the form of bank credits, every time you take out a loan, Bitcoin doesn't change anything.  Because you still have a system that can not create enough currency to pay back the interest.  You might as well go back to the gold standard because it would be just as effective.  Meaning, not at all.  

Decentralization only solves one issue, but people who don't have it, still have to come get it from those who do, so it's the same bullshit.  It's funny you mention Ripple because since our freedom is our ability to issue our own currency, Ripple is the closest thing I see to providing a sustainable monetary system, as being beholden to a bunch of rich Bitcoiners is not monetary freedom.  It's the same slavery we have now, just to a different group of people.  

But it is an experiment...so prove me wrong and every other economist that says deflationary currency won't work.  Do it but as the bubble grows bigger and more and more people hoard, it looks less and less likely.  That's not ideology, that's just math.

[Melbustus]

...Since most currency isn't created by the government, it's created by banks in the form of bank credits, every time you take out a loan, Bitcoin doesn't change anything. ...

Bailouts via new money that devalues existing money can't happen in bitcoin. Fractional reserve would still happen, obviously, but leverage would be a lot less because there's no implicit lender of last resort. Consumers would cause bank-runs MUCH sooner than 100:1 leverage. The system would be less susceptible to long-run extreme tail-risk and moral hazard.

...and every other economist that says deflationary currency won't work.  Do it but as the bubble grows bigger and more and more people hoard, it looks less and less likely.  That's not ideology, that's just math.

It's hard for people to think outside of the plane on which they've lived their entire lives. We've all grown up under a monetary system where supply expands by mandate (ie, the Fed's long-run 2% inflation target). In that context, deflation is bad, yes. But it's bad primarily because it's not the norm; it's unexpected when it happens, people *continue* to know that overall the economy is INflationary, so they hoard *while* it's deflationary due to their future expectations of the return to the mean.

That's very different than an economy where there currency is credibly *guaranteed* to be deflationary in the long-run and where the *exact curve* of money supply dynamics is perfectly known to all economic participants. In such case, people's core demand/supply curves take over and they can allocate capital optimally according to their own preferences, without having to worry about whether the *current* money supply dynamics are out-of-whack wrt long-term expectations. That entire calculus just goes away. Thus no harmful "hoarding".

Again, it's tough for people to intuit this, given the monetary norms of the past century. Thus I'll cut "every other economist" some slack for another few years.

[Coinseeker]

Bailouts via new money that devalues existing money can't happen in bitcoin. Fractional reserve would still happen, obviously, but leverage would be a lot less because there's no implicit lender of last resort. Consumers would cause bank-runs MUCH sooner than 100:1 leverage. The system would be less susceptible to long-run extreme tail-risk and moral hazard.

Less susceptible is still a system that will fail, just at a slower rate.  Which will force bailouts or it will all come tumbling down.  Why?  Because Bitcoin does not prevent banks from creating new money, since the money is just numbers on the banks balance sheet.  Just as if everyone used gold as currency, it wouldn't matter.  Fractional reserve banking can "print" as much money as it wants.  Run on the banks won't happen as long as people keep borrowing, which they are sure to do.

It's hard for people to think outside of the plane on which they've lived their entire lives. We've all grown up under a monetary system where supply expands by mandate (ie, the Fed's long-run 2% inflation target). In that context, deflation is bad, yes. But it's bad primarily because it's not the norm; it's unexpected when it happens, people *continue* to know that overall the economy is INflationary, so they hoard *while* it's deflationary due to their future expectations of the return to the mean.

That's very different than an economy where there currency is credibly *guaranteed* to be deflationary in the long-run and where the *exact curve* of money supply dynamics is perfectly known to all economic participants. In such case, people's core demand/supply curves take over and they can allocate capital optimally according to their own preferences, without having to worry about whether the *current* money supply dynamics are out-of-whack wrt long-term expectations. That entire calculus just goes away. Thus no harmful "hoarding".

Again, it's tough for people to intuit this, given the monetary norms of the past century. Thus I'll cut "every other economist" some slack for another few years.

I've read countless arguments for and against deflationary currency like Bitcoin.  Maybe what you say will prove to be true and maybe not.  One thing is for sure, it's merely an untested theory.  Beyond that, it's the bigger problem that concerns me and if there is not a 100% solution to that, the system will fail, regardless if what you believe, proves to be true or not.  I'm not against Bitcoin, I just don't think it solves the problems, so while you're talking about thinking outside the box, maybe someone would like to deal with the global banking cartel, because just creating a currency free from government, isn't going to accomplish that.