Is Bitcoin a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme & what are the ramifications?

[Hawker]

I don't know if anyone noticed but if you post in Anonymint's threads, he edits your posts to suit his argument.  Normally I have no regrets about posting but since he is messing about I will delete my replies in his thread and post here.

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Bitcoin was created by idealists who want to offer an alternative to fiat currency.  As such, its not fraudulent so can't ever be considered a Ponzi scheme.

"A pyramid scheme is an unsustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

Bitcoin is already a working currency.  So its not any more unsustainable than any other project and as such it can't ever be considered a Pyramid scheme.

[AnonyMint]

I can't edit your posts. There is no button for me Edit on a post of another user.

You say you are programmer but you don't even know how a forum works?

[Hawker]

A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed. Do not continue posting in this topic if the topic-starter has requested that you leave.

You can create a new topic if you are unsatisfied with this one. If the topic-starter is scamming, post about it in Scam Accusations.

You really are all over the place aren't you?  From Ponzi to replacing fiat to strange cartels that will take over governments.

Fiat currency is used to pay taxes.  So fiat currency won't be replaced and won't go away - ever. 

Given that, we are left with the interesting question of what the future of Bitcoin is.  To me, it seems clear that it will continue to be used for drugs and gambling as it works for both.  No matter how much better an altcoin is, users won't change from what they are used to which is Bitcoin.

So Bitcoin is not a Ponzi as its not fraudulent.  Its not a pyramid scheme as it will carry on working as a currency pretty well forever and has no danger of collapse.  The ramifications of what this Internet currency will evolve into are an interesting social experiment.  I know you want a lot more - if you find an altcoin that does what you want, please do let me know

That seems like you editting my replies to me.  And since I have no interest in your doing so, I prefer to post my rebuttal in its own thread.

[AnonyMint]

I deleted it because you completely ignored the points you had lost in the debate and I sent you a PM explaining why I felt you were insincere in debate and thus trolling. I only wrote that in PM.

Delete is not Edit. Two different buttons on a forum.

[Hawker]

Every time you are about to answer to Anonymint it is better to just no do it and read (or reread) this.

Winner.

[Hawker]

Winner.

And yet I answer...

If we agree with this, we can ask ourselves if Bitcoin falls in one of those categories :
1. Ponzi scheme
2. Pyramid scheme
3. Economic bubble

My opinion (*) :
1. No (even Anonymint agrees).

2. No. The system can work without new participants. It worked 3 years ago (you could buy pizzas), it still works today (you can buy a lot more stuff), it will still work tomorrow whatever the exchange rate is.

3. Yes, probably. People are putting great expectations in Bitcoin and maybe not all of them will be fulfilled (the first one being an always increasing price).


(*) : we can only have opinions here.
Most of the debate is about "is Bicoin a fraud ?".
You can not just yell "fraud". ; you have to prove that :
- someone (with a name and address) is doing something illegal in his country of residence,
- and that he is doing it on purpose.

I don't think we are qualified to judge option 3 - the economic bubble.

"the efficient-market hypothesis (EMH), or the joint hypothesis problem, asserts that financial markets are "informationally efficient". In consequence of this, one cannot consistently achieve returns in excess of average market returns on a risk-adjusted basis, given the information available at the time the investment is made." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

The market tells us a Bitcoin has great value based in all the info the market has.  We can only guess the future.  Personally I think that if Bitcoin only were used for drugs and for gambling worldwide, its grossly undervalued.  But if the efficient-market hypothesis is correct, we are all only guessing.

[AnonyMint]

Winner.

And yet I answer...

If we agree with this, we can ask ourselves if Bitcoin falls in one of those categories :
1. Ponzi scheme
2. Pyramid scheme
3. Economic bubble

My opinion (*) :
1. No (even Anonymint agrees).

No I don't agree that ponzi requires a central con man. I think the definition only says that later investors fund earlier and no intrinsic value.

2. No. The system can work without new participants. It worked 3 years ago (you could buy pizzas), it still works today (you can buy a lot more stuff), it will still work tomorrow whatever the exchange rate is.

No it can't. I refuted that in spades:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=340686.msg3663722#new

3. Yes, probably. People are putting great expectations in Bitcoin and maybe not all of them will be fulfilled (the first one being an always increasing price).

Much worse than that. Nearly all will lose everything. And they will lose their freedom too. Mark my word.

(*) : we can only have opinions here.
Most of the debate is about "is Bicoin a fraud ?".
You can not just yell "fraud". ; you have to prove that :
- someone (with a name and address) is doing something illegal in his country of residence,
- and that he is doing it on purpose.

All the people saying Bitcoin is a good investment are a fraud.

When everyone is destroyed, then they will all agree it is a fraud and start pointing fingers.

Enjoy your freedom in the meantime and prepare for a long time behind bars soon.

People change when they go from feeling good, rich to feeling angry, poor.

None of you have a gf or wife? You don't see how irrational women can be? Men are like that when they get fucked over with money.

[Hawker]

...snip...

None of you have a gf or wife? You don't see how irrational women can be? Men are like that when they get fucked over with money.

Seriously?

[AnonyMint]

...snip...

None of you have a gf or wife? You don't see how irrational women can be? Men are like that when they get fucked over with money.

Seriously?

women or men?

[Hawker]

...snip...

None of you have a gf or wife? You don't see how irrational women can be? Men are like that when they get fucked over with money.

Seriously?

women or men?

The notion that women are irrational all the time while men are only "like that" over money.  Is that your belief?

[AnonyMint]

...snip...

None of you have a gf or wife? You don't see how irrational women can be? Men are like that when they get fucked over with money.

Seriously?

women or men?

The notion that women are irrational all the time while men are only "like that" over money.  Is that your belief?

Not exactly. I am just saying that men will turn real nasty when they don't have money for that is their entire identity these days. They don't get women without it also.

I was using the irrationality of women as an example of how men will behave when they are really pissed off. Women tend to get pissed off about daily things such as when you don't give them some of your time. Men tend to get pissed off about dick strategy things. Being poor is going to be very hard on western men. They are not used to it.

I am used to it. I lived in Nipa hut and ate only rice and bananas when I wrote coolpage.com for million users. No problem for me. I can code any where.

[Hawker]

...snip...

The notion that women are irrational all the time while men are only "like that" over money.  Is that your belief?

Not exactly. I am just saying that men will turn real nasty when they don't have money for that is their entire identity these days. They don't get women without it also.

I was using the irrationality of women as an example of how men will behave when they are really pissed off. Women tend to get pissed off about daily things such as when you don't give them some of your time. Men tend to get pissed off about dick strategy things. Being poor is going to be very hard on western men. They are not used to it.

I am used to it. I lived in Nipa hut and ate only rice and bananas when I wrote coolpage.com for million users. No problem for me. I can code any where.

You aren't helping yourself here.  Really, not helping yourself at all.

[AnonyMint]

...snip...

The notion that women are irrational all the time while men are only "like that" over money.  Is that your belief?

Not exactly. I am just saying that men will turn real nasty when they don't have money for that is their entire identity these days. They don't get women without it also.

I was using the irrationality of women as an example of how men will behave when they are really pissed off. Women tend to get pissed off about daily things such as when you don't give them some of your time. Men tend to get pissed off about dick strategy things. Being poor is going to be very hard on western men. They are not used to it.

I am used to it. I lived in Nipa hut and ate only rice and bananas when I wrote coolpage.com for million users. No problem for me. I can code any where.

You aren't helping yourself here.  Really, not helping yourself at all.

Women are rational within their home-community building goals. But their priorities seem quite irrational to a man at times, because our priorities are more competitive.

However, I probably don't speak for westerners any more, as men have become women there in some cases. We joke about that in the developing world where men are still men.

The women are happier here, because we let them be women. Not like all the birth control, abortion, equal crap in the west.

Sorry I am not a socialist. We will not agree.

[Hawker]

...snip...

The notion that women are irrational all the time while men are only "like that" over money.  Is that your belief?

Not exactly. I am just saying that men will turn real nasty when they don't have money for that is their entire identity these days. They don't get women without it also.

I was using the irrationality of women as an example of how men will behave when they are really pissed off. Women tend to get pissed off about daily things such as when you don't give them some of your time. Men tend to get pissed off about dick strategy things. Being poor is going to be very hard on western men. They are not used to it.

I am used to it. I lived in Nipa hut and ate only rice and bananas when I wrote coolpage.com for million users. No problem for me. I can code any where.

You aren't helping yourself here.  Really, not helping yourself at all.

Women are rational within their home-community building goals. But their priorities seem quite irrational to a man at times, because our priorities are more competitive.

However, I probably don't speak for westerners any more, as men have become women there in some cases. We joke about that in the developing world where men are still men.

The women are happier here, because we let them be women. Not like all the birth control, abortion, equal crap in the west.

Sorry I am not a socialist. We will not agree.

If the belief that women are as capable of rational behaviour as men is your definition of socialism, you have every reason to apologise for not being a socialist.

[AnonyMint]

...snip...

The notion that women are irrational all the time while men are only "like that" over money.  Is that your belief?

Not exactly. I am just saying that men will turn real nasty when they don't have money for that is their entire identity these days. They don't get women without it also.

I was using the irrationality of women as an example of how men will behave when they are really pissed off. Women tend to get pissed off about daily things such as when you don't give them some of your time. Men tend to get pissed off about dick strategy things. Being poor is going to be very hard on western men. They are not used to it.

I am used to it. I lived in Nipa hut and ate only rice and bananas when I wrote coolpage.com for million users. No problem for me. I can code any where.

You aren't helping yourself here.  Really, not helping yourself at all.

Women are rational within their home-community building goals. But their priorities seem quite irrational to a man at times, because our priorities are more competitive.

However, I probably don't speak for westerners any more, as men have become women there in some cases. We joke about that in the developing world where men are still men.

The women are happier here, because we let them be women. Not like all the birth control, abortion, equal crap in the west.

Sorry I am not a socialist. We will not agree.

If the belief that women are as capable of rational behaviour as men is your definition of socialism, you have every reason to apologise for not being a socialist.

We completely disagree.

Women are women. And men are men.

Women are rational yes, but not strategically rational. They base their decisions more on emotions of the small group centered around home and family which is very rational in terms of their evolutionary strategy.

If you deny this, you deny nature. Which most westerners do now deny nature. But the payback is coming 2016ish. Western civilization will collapse.

[AnonyMint]

Actually my closest confidant on all matters I write about here is a very very rational and high IQ female. So I should qualify my statement by saying not all females. But my confidant is exceptionally rare.

I am not putting down women. I love seeing them happy doing what feels most natural to them. And those like my confidant who are capable of strategic thought with me, wow I am grateful to God for such diversity.

What I resent is this feminism and socialism that tells us everything is fair. Bullshit. Everything is a competition. Even women are competing for what they want, it just so happens their priorities are more in the home+locale realm usually, but not all of course.

We push women in the west to be like men. And push men to be like women. This messes up the evolutionary strategy of women, which is hypergamy.

Men have a different strategy which is "I will have sex with anything".

here is a reference on this where I learned a lot:

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3000

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4934

[RodeoX]

Calling bitcoin a ponzi is soooo 2010.  

[Hawker]

...snip...

The notion that women are irrational all the time while men are only "like that" over money.  Is that your belief?

Not exactly. I am just saying that men will turn real nasty when they don't have money for that is their entire identity these days. They don't get women without it also.

I was using the irrationality of women as an example of how men will behave when they are really pissed off. Women tend to get pissed off about daily things such as when you don't give them some of your time. Men tend to get pissed off about dick strategy things. Being poor is going to be very hard on western men. They are not used to it.

I am used to it. I lived in Nipa hut and ate only rice and bananas when I wrote coolpage.com for million users. No problem for me. I can code any where.

You aren't helping yourself here.  Really, not helping yourself at all.

Women are rational within their home-community building goals. But their priorities seem quite irrational to a man at times, because our priorities are more competitive.

However, I probably don't speak for westerners any more, as men have become women there in some cases. We joke about that in the developing world where men are still men.

The women are happier here, because we let them be women. Not like all the birth control, abortion, equal crap in the west.

Sorry I am not a socialist. We will not agree.

If the belief that women are as capable of rational behaviour as men is your definition of socialism, you have every reason to apologise for not being a socialist.

We completely disagree.

Women are women. And men are men.

Women are rational yes, but not strategically rational. They base their decisions more on emotions of the small group centered around home and family which is very rational in terms of their evolutionary strategy.

If you deny this, you deny nature. Which most westerners do now deny nature. But the payback is coming 2016ish. Western civilization will collapse.

Oh, Western society will collapse in 2016.  Since you are telling the future Mr. Nature, tell me something useful; what will the winning UK Lottery Number be tonight?

[Hawker]

Actually my closest confidant on all matters I write about here is a very very rational and high IQ female. So I should qualify my statement by saying not all females. But my confidant is exceptionally rare.

I am not putting down women. I love seeing them happy doing what feels most natural to them. And those like my confidant who are capable of strategic thought with me, wow I am grateful to God for such diversity.

What I resent is this feminism and socialism that tells us everything is fair. Bullshit. Everything is a competition. Even women are competing for what they want, it just so happens their priorities are more in the home+locale realm usually, but not all of course.

Of course you are not putting women down.  Why should they trouble their pretty little heads with such nonsense as Bitcoin when they could be working on a production line sewing clothes for us real men?

 

[AnonyMint]

Actually my closest confidant on all matters I write about here is a very very rational and high IQ female. So I should qualify my statement by saying not all females. But my confidant is exceptionally rare.

I am not putting down women. I love seeing them happy doing what feels most natural to them. And those like my confidant who are capable of strategic thought with me, wow I am grateful to God for such diversity.

What I resent is this feminism and socialism that tells us everything is fair. Bullshit. Everything is a competition. Even women are competing for what they want, it just so happens their priorities are more in the home+locale realm usually, but not all of course.

We push women in the west to be like men. And push men to be like women. This messes up the evolutionary strategy of women, which is hypergamy.

Men have a different strategy which is "I will have sex with anything".

here is a reference on this where I learned a lot:

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3000

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4934