Is Bitcoin a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme & what are the ramifications?

[TheBorg]

Bitcoin is an experiment that is working atm, generating money and value, but that value is determined only by the usage and that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable, if that changes it will break down like any Ponzi scheme or Pyramid....

[AnonyMint]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

[TheBorg]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

Well you can trace it to some degree to a point of origin ( address ), but you don't know who is the owner of that address, as in name, DoB, and so on...

[AnonyMint]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

Well you can trace it to some degree to a point of origin ( address ), but you don't know who is the owner of that address, as in name, DoB, and so on...

In most cases the NSA and the "Club" do know this. They can get it from your ISP and IP address or by correlating emails, spends with credit card from same IP, etc, etc, etc.

You have to be both expert and lucky for that not to be increasingly the case.

[TheBorg]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

Well you can trace it to some degree to a point of origin ( address ), but you don't know who is the owner of that address, as in name, DoB, and so on...

In most cases the NSA and the "Club" do know this. They can get it from your ISP and IP address or by correlating emails, spends with credit card from same IP, etc, etc, etc.

You have to be both expert and lucky for that not to be increasingly the case.

VPNs, new email address that is used only for bitcoins, you can make fake documents ( PS ) and use them to create accounts and send them if you are asked for them, open bank account on a fake document and so on...If you have nothing to hide, as in, you trade it just for sole purpose to make money, then that doesn't concern you, but if you are selling drugs, guns, sex and so on, then well, you will probably be smart enough not to give away your real identity.

[AnonyMint]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

Well you can trace it to some degree to a point of origin ( address ), but you don't know who is the owner of that address, as in name, DoB, and so on...

In most cases the NSA and the "Club" do know this. They can get it from your ISP and IP address or by correlating emails, spends with credit card from same IP, etc, etc, etc.

You have to be both expert and lucky for that not to be increasingly the case.

VPNs, new email address that is used only for bitcoins, you can make fake documents ( PS ) and use them to create accounts and send them if you are asked for them, open bank account on a fake document and so on...If you have nothing to hide, as in, you trade it just for sole purpose to make money, then that doesn't concern you, but if you are selling drugs, guns, sex and so on, then well, you will probably be smart enough not to give away your real identity.

So then we agree that the anonymity in Bitcoin is not mainstream, so it has nothing to do with the price valuation. I don't think investors could justify such huge projections of currency value if only illegal markets are to be the norm.

[ex-trader]

I cannot reply in the other thread for some reason, but here's my take.

I think Bitcoin shares characteristics of many things discussed as follows:

Ponzi -20% (there are no central divs/payouts, but the earlier investors get rich from new investors money)
Pyramid - 20% (nothing is being sold, but it does require ever greater new entrants to keep price momentum)
Greater Fool - 10% (as above needs new investors willing to pay ever higher prices on no intrinisc value)
Facebook - 50% (buy it now because it will be big and then it'll somehow be worth what we've paid for it and more)

- I bought BTC and sold them and made a profit. I am like 99% of BTC buyers and have no interest in BTC for transactions. It's simply a means to make a short-term profit.

The reality is that now the vast majority of BTC buyers are like me and of the recent new buyers almost all of them are (or are there seriously people who believe the chinese are buying BTC to spend them).

I have been making the same point about lack of real transactions for a long time and no-one ever has an answer. As has been detailed it simply doesn't work for most normal transactions (too slow/too volatile in price/lack of recourse for buyer) as follows in comparisons:

vs cash/cards in person - too slow, I can pass someone banknotes in a shop and we are done in 5 seconds, I cannot wait 10mins to 2 hours for the BTC to pass

vs credit cards on-line - there is no price-saving and I lose the right to protection I have with cards and on-line is where I need protection most

vs Western Union etc for money transfer - I might be able to save money on fees, but I don't know what the currency will be valued at when it arrives

I keep asking for stats on real transaction on Bitcoins (ie buying legal goods/services) and guess what where aren't any and no-one wants to dig too deep because the truth is painful.

Also look at this forum, this forum is the pinnacle of Bitcoin users, the best educated and almost every thread is about mining and price speculation.

[TheBorg]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

Well you can trace it to some degree to a point of origin ( address ), but you don't know who is the owner of that address, as in name, DoB, and so on...

In most cases the NSA and the "Club" do know this. They can get it from your ISP and IP address or by correlating emails, spends with credit card from same IP, etc, etc, etc.

You have to be both expert and lucky for that not to be increasingly the case.

VPNs, new email address that is used only for bitcoins, you can make fake documents ( PS ) and use them to create accounts and send them if you are asked for them, open bank account on a fake document and so on...If you have nothing to hide, as in, you trade it just for sole purpose to make money, then that doesn't concern you, but if you are selling drugs, guns, sex and so on, then well, you will probably be smart enough not to give away your real identity.

So then we agree that the anonymity in Bitcoin is not mainstream, so it has nothing to do with the price valuation. I don't think investors could justify such huge projections of currency value if only illegal markets are to be the norm.

Cannabis is illegal in my country, so the price is high if you wanna buy it and you will get a jail ( probably ), in Holland it's legal, you can trade it, buy in coffee shops, smoke in the street. Apply that to bitcoin, only the larger part is sued for that "illegal" stuff and the rest for normal trade. Price is dictated by many things, in this case one of those things is the need to buy something you can't in relative security.

[niothor]

Please stop quoting peoples with yellow buttons. It makes the ignore feature useless.

[AnonyMint]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

Well you can trace it to some degree to a point of origin ( address ), but you don't know who is the owner of that address, as in name, DoB, and so on...

In most cases the NSA and the "Club" do know this. They can get it from your ISP and IP address or by correlating emails, spends with credit card from same IP, etc, etc, etc.

You have to be both expert and lucky for that not to be increasingly the case.

VPNs, new email address that is used only for bitcoins, you can make fake documents ( PS ) and use them to create accounts and send them if you are asked for them, open bank account on a fake document and so on...If you have nothing to hide, as in, you trade it just for sole purpose to make money, then that doesn't concern you, but if you are selling drugs, guns, sex and so on, then well, you will probably be smart enough not to give away your real identity.

So then we agree that the anonymity in Bitcoin is not mainstream, so it has nothing to do with the price valuation. I don't think investors could justify such huge projections of currency value if only illegal markets are to be the norm.

Cannabis is illegal in my country, so the price is high if you wanna buy it and you will get a jail ( probably ), in Holland it's legal, you can trade it, buy in coffee shops, smoke in the street. Apply that to bitcoin, only the larger part is sued for that "illegal" stuff and the rest for normal trade. Price is dictated by many things, in this case one of those things is the need to buy something you can't in relative security.

I wouldn't invest in Bitcoin is this illegal use was the dominant justification.

If drugs become mainstream, I will move away from society. That is once reason I moved away from the USA and stay away from Thailand (even though they have strict drug laws, they seem to attract too many foreigners who use them).

I understand and support individual freedom, and maybe drugs are going to become extremely widespread now with Bitcoin, and so maybe that is a wise investment.

However, I am hoping society will continue to fight drugs harshly as they do here in Asia for the most part with life and death sentences.

So I guess I will choose to remain ignorant of such a market, and assume it will remain insignificant.

Note I am not in favor of forcing all countries to be harsh on drugs. I have a friend from NL and he was doing drugs recreationally all his life. Unfortunately now he is dying of Leukemia, probably as a side-effect of the drug use. Well I guess he enjoyed his life. We all have to die someday.

[johnyj]

Most of the people come to the bitcoin world need to first understand why fiat money is the biggest ponzi scheme, and then they will have a better understanding why bitcoin appreciate so fast

It is not bitcoin who is appreciating, it is the fiat money whose value is dropping dramatically. At first people would accept the fact that the value of their goods measured by fiat money will also drop against bitcoin, but later they will realize that it is only fiat money's value dropping, so they will raise the fiat money price of their goods/services eventually

[knarzo]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

Well you can trace it to some degree to a point of origin ( address ), but you don't know who is the owner of that address, as in name, DoB, and so on...

In most cases the NSA and the "Club" do know this. They can get it from your ISP and IP address or by correlating emails, spends with credit card from same IP, etc, etc, etc.

You have to be both expert and lucky for that not to be increasingly the case.

VPNs, new email address that is used only for bitcoins, you can make fake documents ( PS ) and use them to create accounts and send them if you are asked for them, open bank account on a fake document and so on...If you have nothing to hide, as in, you trade it just for sole purpose to make money, then that doesn't concern you, but if you are selling drugs, guns, sex and so on, then well, you will probably be smart enough not to give away your real identity.

So then we agree that the anonymity in Bitcoin is not mainstream, so it has nothing to do with the price valuation. I don't think investors could justify such huge projections of currency value if only illegal markets are to be the norm.

Cannabis is illegal in my country, so the price is high if you wanna buy it and you will get a jail ( probably ), in Holland it's legal, you can trade it, buy in coffee shops, smoke in the street. Apply that to bitcoin, only the larger part is sued for that "illegal" stuff and the rest for normal trade. Price is dictated by many things, in this case one of those things is the need to buy something you can't in relative security.

I wouldn't invest in Bitcoin is this illegal use was the dominant justification.

If drugs become mainstream, I will move away from society. That is once reason I moved away from the USA and stay away from Thailand (even though they have strict drug laws, they seem to attract too many foreigners who use them).

I understand and support individual freedom, and maybe drugs are going to become extremely widespread now with Bitcoin, and so maybe that is a wise investment.

However, I am hoping society will continue to fight drugs harshly as they do here in Asia for the most part with life and death sentences.

So I guess I will choose to remain ignorant of such a market, and assume it will remain insignificant.

Note I am not in favor of forcing all countries to be harsh on drugs. I have a friend from NL and he was doing drugs recreationally all his life. Unfortunately now he is dying of Leukemia, probably as a side-effect of the drug use. Well I guess he enjoyed his life. We all have to die someday.

You are agains't drug use? Do you know a place on earth where every person is "clean"? Drugs have always been and always will be. And as i read most of your threads and posts i thought that people with an higher iq are able to see the konnex why the US (and other cons) called a war on drugs. If drugs would be decriminalised worldwide the drugcartels (cia,etc) would lose a big amount of their income. And if that money would not be spent on prohibition, lawenforcment, jails (which is getting quite a profitable branch in europe) but on education we would have a lot less problems.
And Leukemia, probably as a side-effect of the drug use? Mkay.. Which drug exactly?

[AnonyMint]

that as far as we know, bitcoins are untraceable

That is already known to false in most cases.

Well you can trace it to some degree to a point of origin ( address ), but you don't know who is the owner of that address, as in name, DoB, and so on...

In most cases the NSA and the "Club" do know this. They can get it from your ISP and IP address or by correlating emails, spends with credit card from same IP, etc, etc, etc.

You have to be both expert and lucky for that not to be increasingly the case.

VPNs, new email address that is used only for bitcoins, you can make fake documents ( PS ) and use them to create accounts and send them if you are asked for them, open bank account on a fake document and so on...If you have nothing to hide, as in, you trade it just for sole purpose to make money, then that doesn't concern you, but if you are selling drugs, guns, sex and so on, then well, you will probably be smart enough not to give away your real identity.

So then we agree that the anonymity in Bitcoin is not mainstream, so it has nothing to do with the price valuation. I don't think investors could justify such huge projections of currency value if only illegal markets are to be the norm.

Cannabis is illegal in my country, so the price is high if you wanna buy it and you will get a jail ( probably ), in Holland it's legal, you can trade it, buy in coffee shops, smoke in the street. Apply that to bitcoin, only the larger part is sued for that "illegal" stuff and the rest for normal trade. Price is dictated by many things, in this case one of those things is the need to buy something you can't in relative security.

I wouldn't invest in Bitcoin is this illegal use was the dominant justification.

If drugs become mainstream, I will move away from society. That is once reason I moved away from the USA and stay away from Thailand (even though they have strict drug laws, they seem to attract too many foreigners who use them).

I understand and support individual freedom, and maybe drugs are going to become extremely widespread now with Bitcoin, and so maybe that is a wise investment.

However, I am hoping society will continue to fight drugs harshly as they do here in Asia for the most part with life and death sentences.

So I guess I will choose to remain ignorant of such a market, and assume it will remain insignificant.

Note I am not in favor of forcing all countries to be harsh on drugs. I have a friend from NL and he was doing drugs recreationally all his life. Unfortunately now he is dying of Leukemia, probably as a side-effect of the drug use. Well I guess he enjoyed his life. We all have to die someday.

You are agains't drug use? Do you know a place on earth where every person is "clean"? Drugs have always been and always will be. And as i read most of your threads and posts i thought that people with an higher iq are able to see the konnex why the US (and other cons) called a war on drugs. If drugs would be decriminalised worldwide the drugcartels (cia,etc) would lose a big amount of their income. And if that money would not be spent on prohibition, lawenforcment, jails (which is getting quite a profitable branch in europe) but on education we would have a lot less problems.
And Leukemia, probably as a side-effect of the drug use? Mkay.. Which drug exactly?

Social issues are best left to the local community to decide. The mayor where I lives shoots all the druggies and the snatches. Therefore our city is rated one of the safest in the world. He says if you don't like it, you can leave. He invites criminals to come here to die.

There is no BS a war on drugs here in this city, because they just execute with no trial and no nonsense. Druggies get 3 warnings, they must either leave, stop, or die. I am contented with this.

I've seen personally what drugs do to people I care about. Start with a simple drug like maryjane then it escalates to heroine. Thank God that person is off of it now.

Yeah there are still some drug use, but very, very minimal where I am. I like being around these simple people and not all addicted on coffee and chemicals like westerners. Just purely natural, not even any make-up. I prefer life very close to nature. I prefer women who eat the head and eyeballs of the fish and don't say "ew". Meaning I look down on aristocrats and people who can't "rough it".

[Hawker]

Guys please don't feed the troll.

[knarzo]

Ok i see. You saw what drugs do to people and you did what? Watched them fall?
And the good old MJ to blame. Nice. Tell that jamaicans. They are all on heroine

"Social issues are best left to the local community to decide" Ah mkay. Now i understand why a lot of people here often disagree with you. You should expand your horizon a bit imho.

[AnonyMint]

Ok i see. You saw what drugs do to people and you did what? Watched them fall?
And the good old MJ to blame. Nice. Tell that jamaicans. They are all on heroine

"Social issues are best left to the local community to decide" Ah mkay. Now i understand why a lot of people here often disagree with you. You should expand your horizon a bit imho.

Huh?  

I did not write that watched someone fall without attempting any rescue.

Oic you like MJ. Okay but we don't tolerate that here. Don't come here, you will end up dead. And don't breath that nor bring your smelly clothes near me, as I don't want that chemical going inside me.

I don't choose to live in Jamaica. I choose to live in a city that is drug-free. Okay they like MJ there. Okay you think it is good.

Every person can choose which community they like to live in. Vote with your feet (migrate).

Why would libertarians disagree with allowing a local community to decide?

Because you are all socialists? And druggies (at least MJ-users) too?

P.S. i consider even chocolate and sugar to be drugs. I don't consume them. Not even soda pop. I consume only naturally sweet fruits when I want sweet. That doesn't make me better than you. Just different. And I don't want to associate in person with people who consume these chemicals, because I don't like the influence and I don't like what it does to their behavior and demeanor, etc.. Therefore I  think we can't live in the same local community. It is better for us to have separate communities. Socialists think we must all tolerate each other. I disagree with that. I don't have to tolerate you and you don't have to tolerate me. Separate is better.

[knarzo]

Ok i see. You saw what drugs do to people and you did what? Watched them fall?
And the good old MJ to blame. Nice. Tell that jamaicans. They are all on heroine

"Social issues are best left to the local community to decide" Ah mkay. Now i understand why a lot of people here often disagree with you. You should expand your horizon a bit imho.

Huh?  

I did not write that watched someone fall without attempting any rescue.

Oic you like MJ. Okay but we don't tolerate that here. Don't come here, you will end up dead. And don't breath that nor bring your smelly clothes near me, as I don't want that chemical going inside me.

I don't choose to live in Jamaica. I choose to live in a city that is drug-free. Okay they like MJ there. Okay you think it is good.

Every person can choose which community they like to live in. Vote with your feet (migrate).

Why would libertarians disagree with allowing a local community to decide?

Because you are all socialists? And druggies too?

Ok got it And every person can choose which drugs to take. Else there would be no demand for them right? Anyway. We'd not get far with this discussion.

And i'm not a socialist

[AnonyMint]

Ok i see. You saw what drugs do to people and you did what? Watched them fall?
And the good old MJ to blame. Nice. Tell that jamaicans. They are all on heroine

"Social issues are best left to the local community to decide" Ah mkay. Now i understand why a lot of people here often disagree with you. You should expand your horizon a bit imho.

Huh?  

I did not write that watched someone fall without attempting any rescue.

Oic you like MJ. Okay but we don't tolerate that here. Don't come here, you will end up dead. And don't breath that nor bring your smelly clothes near me, as I don't want that chemical going inside me.

I don't choose to live in Jamaica. I choose to live in a city that is drug-free. Okay they like MJ there. Okay you think it is good.

Every person can choose which community they like to live in. Vote with your feet (migrate).

Why would libertarians disagree with allowing a local community to decide?

Because you are all socialists? And druggies too?

Ok got it And every person can choose which drugs to take. Else there would be no demand for them right? Anyway. We'd not get far with this discussion.

And i'm not a socialist

You can choose which drug you want, but not in a community which has voted to not allow them. You will need to migrate to one that does.

If the community loses the technological ability to control that, then that will no longer be true. In which case, I will live away from society if there are druggies around.

Hope that is clear.

I put a P.S. in my prior comment that I think it makes it easier for us if we segregate by preferences. But technology will decide if the community has this power or not.

As far as I can see the community will retain this power, because drugs are tangible and can be discovered in shipping with better technology for sensors.

Isn't it safer for you to move to a community that allows MJ than deal with blackmarket and danger of going to jail.

[knarzo]

Ok i see. You saw what drugs do to people and you did what? Watched them fall?
And the good old MJ to blame. Nice. Tell that jamaicans. They are all on heroine

"Social issues are best left to the local community to decide" Ah mkay. Now i understand why a lot of people here often disagree with you. You should expand your horizon a bit imho.

Huh?  

I did not write that watched someone fall without attempting any rescue.

Oic you like MJ. Okay but we don't tolerate that here. Don't come here, you will end up dead. And don't breath that nor bring your smelly clothes near me, as I don't want that chemical going inside me.

I don't choose to live in Jamaica. I choose to live in a city that is drug-free. Okay they like MJ there. Okay you think it is good.

Every person can choose which community they like to live in. Vote with your feet (migrate).

Why would libertarians disagree with allowing a local community to decide?

Because you are all socialists? And druggies too?

Ok got it And every person can choose which drugs to take. Else there would be no demand for them right? Anyway. We'd not get far with this discussion.

And i'm not a socialist

You can choose which drug you want, but not in a community which has voted to not allow them. You will need to migrate to one that does.

If the community loses the technological ability to control that, then that will no longer be true. In which case, I will live away from society if there are druggies around.

Hope that is clear.

I put a P.S. in my prior comment that I think it makes it easier for us if we segregate by preferences. But technology will decide if the community has this power or not.

As far as I can see the community will retain this power, because drugs are tangible and can be discovered in shipping with better technology for sensors.

Isn't it safer for you to move to a community that allows MJ than deal with blackmarket and danger of going to jail.

As i said above. I do agree with you in some cases. But drugs have always been and always will be. No matter how hard they will be prosecuted. That's a fact. Proven by history.

And i do live in safe community (with "druggies" around) where i do not have to lock my door. Not even at night.
Thanks for assuming that i do drugs. Stop thinking in boxes. It can affect your mental health.

PS No need for a blackmarket here. A variety of drugs would grow. You'd just need to step out and grab them.

[AnonyMint]

Ok i see. You saw what drugs do to people and you did what? Watched them fall?
And the good old MJ to blame. Nice. Tell that jamaicans. They are all on heroine

"Social issues are best left to the local community to decide" Ah mkay. Now i understand why a lot of people here often disagree with you. You should expand your horizon a bit imho.

Huh?  

I did not write that watched someone fall without attempting any rescue.

Oic you like MJ. Okay but we don't tolerate that here. Don't come here, you will end up dead. And don't breath that nor bring your smelly clothes near me, as I don't want that chemical going inside me.

I don't choose to live in Jamaica. I choose to live in a city that is drug-free. Okay they like MJ there. Okay you think it is good.

Every person can choose which community they like to live in. Vote with your feet (migrate).

Why would libertarians disagree with allowing a local community to decide?

Because you are all socialists? And druggies too?

Ok got it And every person can choose which drugs to take. Else there would be no demand for them right? Anyway. We'd not get far with this discussion.

And i'm not a socialist

You can choose which drug you want, but not in a community which has voted to not allow them. You will need to migrate to one that does.

If the community loses the technological ability to control that, then that will no longer be true. In which case, I will live away from society if there are druggies around.

Hope that is clear.

I put a P.S. in my prior comment that I think it makes it easier for us if we segregate by preferences. But technology will decide if the community has this power or not.

As far as I can see the community will retain this power, because drugs are tangible and can be discovered in shipping with better technology for sensors.

Isn't it safer for you to move to a community that allows MJ than deal with blackmarket and danger of going to jail.

As i said above. I do agree with you in some cases. But drugs have always been and always will be. No matter how hard they will be prosecuted. That's a fact. Proven by history.

And i do live in safe community (with "druggies" around) where i do not have to lock my door. Not even at night.
Thanks for assuming that i do drugs. Stop thinking in boxes. It can affect your mental health.

PS No need for a blackmarket here. A variety of drugs would grow. You'd just need to step out and grab them.

I didn't assume you do drugs. Why do you assume I assume? Watch those boxes you sling around, they come back and hit you.

Rather I didn't bother to exclude you so as to be impolite as I felt you were to me.

Just because there will always be drugs, doesn't mean a community can't drastically reduce their use.

There are no significant drugs where I am.

Safe is not enough, I don't want the presence of druggies near to me.

Growing is very dangerous here. Buying from growers is the blackmarket.

What is your point? Are you trying to say it is futile to crackdown on drugs? That is obviously false where I live.

Obviously lies such as War on Drugs don't work, because they are lies. The CIA is running the drugs.

Seems you think freedom is an absolute. I don't. I am a realist.