Is Bitcoin a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme & what are the ramifications?

[knarzo]

Ok i see. You saw what drugs do to people and you did what? Watched them fall?
And the good old MJ to blame. Nice. Tell that jamaicans. They are all on heroine

"Social issues are best left to the local community to decide" Ah mkay. Now i understand why a lot of people here often disagree with you. You should expand your horizon a bit imho.

Huh?  

I did not write that watched someone fall without attempting any rescue.

Oic you like MJ. Okay but we don't tolerate that here. Don't come here, you will end up dead. And don't breath that nor bring your smelly clothes near me, as I don't want that chemical going inside me.

I don't choose to live in Jamaica. I choose to live in a city that is drug-free. Okay they like MJ there. Okay you think it is good.

Every person can choose which community they like to live in. Vote with your feet (migrate).

Why would libertarians disagree with allowing a local community to decide?

Because you are all socialists? And druggies too?

Ok got it And every person can choose which drugs to take. Else there would be no demand for them right? Anyway. We'd not get far with this discussion.

And i'm not a socialist

You can choose which drug you want, but not in a community which has voted to not allow them. You will need to migrate to one that does.

If the community loses the technological ability to control that, then that will no longer be true. In which case, I will live away from society if there are druggies around.

Hope that is clear.

I put a P.S. in my prior comment that I think it makes it easier for us if we segregate by preferences. But technology will decide if the community has this power or not.

As far as I can see the community will retain this power, because drugs are tangible and can be discovered in shipping with better technology for sensors.

Isn't it safer for you to move to a community that allows MJ than deal with blackmarket and danger of going to jail.

As i said above. I do agree with you in some cases. But drugs have always been and always will be. No matter how hard they will be prosecuted. That's a fact. Proven by history.

And i do live in safe community (with "druggies" around) where i do not have to lock my door. Not even at night.
Thanks for assuming that i do drugs. Stop thinking in boxes. It can affect your mental health.

PS No need for a blackmarket here. A variety of drugs would grow. You'd just need to step out and grab them.

I didn't assume you do drugs. Why do you assume I assume? Watch those boxes you sling around, they come back and hit you.

1st) Oic you like MJ. Okay but we don't tolerate that here. Don't come here, you will end up dead. And don't breath that nor bring your smelly clothes near me, as I don't want that chemical going inside me.

2nd) Isn't it safer for you to move to a community that allows MJ than deal with blackmarket and danger of going to jail.

I think we'll not manage to get consensus here. No offense.

[1713520938]

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[AnonyMint]

Where I wrote "you", I was thinking "druggies". I said I didn't bother to exclude you, because I felt you were being impolite also.

I think the point you were trying to make to me is that drugs are big business and will always be?

I wrote upthread that if drugs will be the major use of the coin, I am not interested in the coin.

I don't think drugs are the biggest business, and don't need to be the major use of money. I sure hope not.

I have a broader vision for decentralized money than just drugs.

Afaik, drug use is much higher in the Caucasian and Latin American countries than in the East and SE Asian countries. I didn't verify it by googling stats.

[knarzo]

I think the point you were trying to make to me is that drugs are big business and will always be?

As long as people will be repressed by moralists and their view of what is "right" to them - yes. It's just a shelter for the desperate (ab)users and they will not stop seeking for it. Which closes the circle for me. Decriminalise the users and a lot of problems will be gone.

[AnonyMint]

I think the point you were trying to make to me is that drugs are big business and will always be?

As long as people will be repressed by moralists and their view of what is "right" to them - yes. It's just a shelter for the desperate (ab)users and they will not stop seeking for it. Which closes the circle for me. Decriminalise the users and a lot of problems will be gone.

Honestly I am conflicted on this issue. My minanarchist values hate to have government dictating to people. I would love absolute freedom. Yet I can only conclude logically that absolute freedom is another form of a jail.

It is simply impossible for people to do whatever they want and not impact on others in the community. Thus each community has to decide how tolerant or strict it wants to be. Thus at least we have a diversity of community types to choose one that best matches our individual choices about tradeoffs.

Thus I conclude that "Decriminalise the users" every where is much less freedom than "let the communities decide".

One rule for every where is very intolerant, even if you think it is a rule of tolerance.

Minanarchy is much more freedom than anarchy.

[Buffer Overflow]

@AnonyMint

So Branson is publicly promoting a ponzi/pyramid now is he? Putting his whole reputation on the line. Really?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101220710

I think not. If that is not proof enough for you Bitcoin is legit, than you are beyond help.

Well I guess that wraps that up. Bitcoin not a ponzi/pyramid. The end.

[Adrian-x]

Bitcoin was created by idealists who want to offer an alternative to fiat currency.  As such, its not fraudulent so can't ever be considered a Ponzi scheme.

WTF, you are projecting.
Idealists are more likely adopting Bitcoin because they want an alternate to Fiat currency.

Its value is created by idealists because they are prepared to invest in it, the herd that buys in for a quick buck fit your projection that's why we have bubbles, (or runs on the bank)


Re: Is Bitcoin a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme & what are the ramifications?
Neither, it's a P2P risk distribution virus and it will spread, think of it as a distributed socialised savings insurance.   You can buy back in whenever you like Your question is FUD!.

[AnonyMint]

Putting his whole reputation on the line. Really?

You constructed a strawman argument. Congrats.

[MoonShadow]

Putting his whole reputation on the line. Really?

You constructed a strawman argument. Congrats.

I would say that it was an appeal to authority...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

[AnonyMint]

Putting his whole reputation on the line. Really?

You constructed a strawman argument. Congrats.

I would say that it was an appeal to authority...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

The point is Branson did not stake his reputation, thus a strawman. He only said it is a neat or interesting innovation. I also think proof-of-work is a cool innovation. That is not staking my reputation on Bitcoin.

[Buffer Overflow]

The point is Branson did not stake his reputation, thus a strawman. He only said it is a neat or interesting innovation. I also think proof-of-work is a cool innovation. That is not staking my reputation on Bitcoin.

This is the official link: http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/bitcoins-in-space

Observe the quote from Branson:

For people who can afford to invest a little in bitcoins, it’s worth looking into.

Not proof as such, but c'mon would be really put his head in a noose?

Fortunately Hawker made this an open discussion thread so this catastrophic blow to your ponzi claim can be freely talked about. In contrast, your thread was locked down so you could carefully control what information was shown with an iron fist. This post would of been quickly deleted as soon as possible.

Right, I'm off now to cook up a nice humble pie and your going to eat in right in front of us. 

[AnonyMint]

I can speculate on whether Branson as a member of the elite (Bilderberger, CFR member, etc) is playing ball as he has been perhaps told to. Or perhaps he really believes in Bitcoin. But he isn't here in these forums down in the trenches. And he doesn't see what I see technically.

So let him end up as another Bitcoin idiot. Fine with me. I'd love to slay his ass if he puts his net worth in Bitcoin. But of course he isn't that stupid and so isn't endorsing it for himself, rather encouraging the greater fools who I am about to teach a lesson in market dynamics.

The thread was closed because all the key arguments had been made and argued. I am one man against 100+ butt hurt Bitcoin zealots who are unable to read the thread before they post and were posting either redundant arguments or spamming the thread with "you are wrong, because you are wrong" 0-information non-arguments.

I will go post a link from that thread to this one, so all your posts are acknowledged.

Ain't No Future In Yo Frontin, "Shine it up good".

[Buffer Overflow]

I can speculate on whether Branson as a member of the elite (Bilderberger, CFR member, etc) is playing ball as he has been perhaps told to. Or perhaps he really believes in Bitcoin. But he isn't here in these forums down in the trenches. And he doesn't see what I see technically.

So let him end up as another Bitcoin idiot. Fine with me. I'd love to slay his ass if he puts his net worth in Bitcoin. But of course he isn't that stupid and so isn't endorsing it for himself, rather encouraging the greater fools who I am about to teach a lesson in market dynamics.

The thread was closed because all the key arguments had been made and argued. I am one man against 100+ butt hurt Bitcoin zealots who are unable to read the thread before they post and were posting either redundant arguments or spamming the thread with "you are wrong, because you are wrong" 0-information non-arguments.

I will go post a link from that thread to this one, so all your posts are acknowledged.

That now thread is defunct because of censorship. Any OP with an ounce of common sense would of locked it and buried it.

For someone so 100% sure of Bitcoins impending doom you do spend an unnatural amount of time on this forum. I can only come to the conclusion it's some fruitless bizarre attempt to lower the price so you can hoover up some cheaper coins. Or it might be this:

I am going to destroy BitCON (there is no light, it is fatally doomed as it lacks distribution) and you will buy from me.

Good luck with that. 

[bitcon]

those at the top of pyramid schemes usually stay there. in bitcoin you can step down from the top in trade for fiat and someone else takes your place.

[johnyj]

those at the top of pyramid schemes usually stay there. in bitcoin you can step down from the top in trade for fiat and someone else takes your place.

There is always a motivation to climb the ladder to reach the top, even totally unnecessary 

[MoonShadow]

Right, I'm off now to cook up a nice humble pie and your going to eat in right in front of us. 

I'm pretty sure the Union of Government FUDders has a clause against eating humble pie while at work.

[pjviitas]

I can speculate on whether Branson as a member of the elite (Bilderberger, CFR member, etc) is playing ball as he has been perhaps told to. Or perhaps he really believes in Bitcoin. But he isn't here in these forums down in the trenches. And he doesn't see what I see technically.

So let him end up as another Bitcoin idiot. Fine with me. I'd love to slay his ass if he puts his net worth in Bitcoin. But of course he isn't that stupid and so isn't endorsing it for himself, rather encouraging the greater fools who I am about to teach a lesson in market dynamics.

The thread was closed because all the key arguments had been made and argued. I am one man against 100+ butt hurt Bitcoin zealots who are unable to read the thread before they post and were posting either redundant arguments or spamming the thread with "you are wrong, because you are wrong" 0-information non-arguments.

I will go post a link from that thread to this one, so all your posts are acknowledged.

Ain't No Future In Yo Frontin, "Shine it up good".

Is this guy for real?

Sounds to me like he is tripping on Ritalin.

[MoonShadow]

I can speculate on whether Branson as a member of the elite (Bilderberger, CFR member, etc) is playing ball as he has been perhaps told to. Or perhaps he really believes in Bitcoin. But he isn't here in these forums down in the trenches. And he doesn't see what I see technically.

So let him end up as another Bitcoin idiot. Fine with me. I'd love to slay his ass if he puts his net worth in Bitcoin. But of course he isn't that stupid and so isn't endorsing it for himself, rather encouraging the greater fools who I am about to teach a lesson in market dynamics.

The thread was closed because all the key arguments had been made and argued. I am one man against 100+ butt hurt Bitcoin zealots who are unable to read the thread before they post and were posting either redundant arguments or spamming the thread with "you are wrong, because you are wrong" 0-information non-arguments.

I will go post a link from that thread to this one, so all your posts are acknowledged.

Ain't No Future In Yo Frontin, "Shine it up good".

Is this guy for real?

Sounds to me like he is tripping on Ritalin.

He might be, but only because he's really 14 years old, pretending to be some uber coder trying to convince everyone he alone has discovered the Great Bitcoin Flaw (tm).

[Zarathustra]

...snip...

The notion that women are irrational all the time while men are only "like that" over money.  Is that your belief?

Not exactly. I am just saying that men will turn real nasty when they don't have money for that is their entire identity these days. They don't get women without it also.

I was using the irrationality of women as an example of how men will behave when they are really pissed off. Women tend to get pissed off about daily things such as when you don't give them some of your time. Men tend to get pissed off about dick strategy things. Being poor is going to be very hard on western men. They are not used to it.

I am used to it. I lived in Nipa hut and ate only rice and bananas when I wrote coolpage.com for million users. No problem for me. I can code any where.

You aren't helping yourself here.  Really, not helping yourself at all.

Women are rational within their home-community building goals. But their priorities seem quite irrational to a man at times, because our priorities are more competitive.

However, I probably don't speak for westerners any more, as men have become women there in some cases. We joke about that in the developing world where men are still men.

The women are happier here, because we let them be women. Not like all the birth control, abortion, equal crap in the west.

Sorry I am not a socialist. We will not agree.

If the belief that women are as capable of rational behaviour as men is your definition of socialism, you have every reason to apologise for not being a socialist.

We completely disagree.

Women are women. And men are men.

Women are rational yes, but not strategically rational. They base their decisions more on emotions of the small group centered around home and family which is very rational in terms of their evolutionary strategy.

If you deny this, you deny nature. Which most westerners do now deny nature. But the payback is coming 2016ish. Western civilization will collapse.

All civilizations do collapse, because to be civilized (enslaved) is against human nature, and therefore all civilized (collectivized, monogamized, taxed by the state mafia) men are not men anymore.  You even don't know such simple anthropologic facts. You are a story telling collectivist who knows nothing about nature, systems and money.

[AnonyMint]

hmmm give me 1 reason why this would be true. Like all other currencies you can only spend them once. Just because some ppl hold 10K+ BTC doesn't mean they will do that forever, they will spend them at some point, or sell them for dollars and this give the btc a new owner. Just because they don't spend now (because price is still going to get higher according to them) doesn't mean they will not spend them ever. Same as billionaires today hold a large chunk of all cash, there will be people who will hold a big bunch of btc, but like i said, they can only spend them once and when they do btc will be more deconcentrated and dispersed.

Spending and FX conversion have different effects, especially on the market valuation of Bitcoin Think it out. I already wrote enough on the subject. I don't want to repeat myself again.

[AnonyMint]

Whether or not the pyramid or ponzi scheme terms are misused by pedantic definitions does not provide an argument against bitcoin being a * scheme. It is a "bitcoin scheme" which closely resembles a pyramid scheme but has a few twists.

28%. Wow we are making headway in the consciousness of the audience.

The key characteristics of anything that resembles a ponzi or pyramid scheme are:

1. No intrinsic value, it is all a willful delusion of the participants.

2. Viral adoption as deluded participants scurry to induce greater fools by word-of-mouth.

Physical gold investment most certainly has an intrinsic value and you will always have that rarity and tangible value (that you can hold in your hand) and thus it can't go to 0. Bitcoins are not rare, because anyone can create an altcoin, and the only thing holding people into Bitcoin is a) the poor quality of the competitors thus far, b) the delusion that Bitcoin is something that it isn't (it isn't a currency), c) the delusion that the limited network effects thus far are a barrier to a great altcoin, d) the delusion that Bitcoin doesn't have technological flaws which doom it, e.g. Transactions Withholding Attack and the Spiraling Transactions Fees.

Shares on major markets usually have intrinsic value and they almost never have the ability to sell like a virus, because most people are inherently skeptical of pink sheets shares because they have many examples of failure.

Whereas, "this is new, it has never happened before, this is the greatest new innovation" is what spreads like a virus.

I see so many of these schemes, such as "this health system will restore your vitality" pyramid schemes, and there is no intrinsic value. It is just herbs you could buy for 1/1000 the price in bulk.

If you want to defeat this logic of mine, your only chance is to argue that Bitcoin has an intrinsic value and justify your willful, collective (what I strongly believe to be) delusion.

Arguing for pedantic, narrow definitions of such schemes makes you look desperate. Actually argue the point.

You can try to argue against:

Physical gold investment most certainly has an intrinsic value and you will always have that rarity and tangible value (that you can hold in your hand) and thus it can't go to 0. Bitcoins are not rare, because anyone can create an altcoin, and the only thing holding people into Bitcoin is a) the poor quality of the competitors thus far, b) the delusion that Bitcoin is something that it isn't (it isn't a currency), c) the delusion that the limited network effects thus far are a barrier to a great altcoin, d) the delusion that Bitcoin doesn't have technological flaws which doom it, e.g. Transactions Withholding Attack and the Spiraling Transactions Fees.

Read this entire thread:

Problem With Altcoins