Bitcoin isn't worth it for consumers. And that will stop adoption.

[Coinseeker]

We know from experience that trickle down economics does not work.  Bitcoin is currently good for merchants but terrible for consumers.  Merchants likely won't reduce prices and will jump on Bitcoin as a way to increase their profit margins by paying fewer fees to the CC companies. Consumers won't buy BTC for retail spending because paper bills and CC are WAY easier.  Not to mention, aquiring Bitcoin is a pain in itself and lets not get started on storing them securely.

Much of this can likely be worked out over the coming decade.  The internet was pretty much useless too when it started.  It takes time to build useful infrastructure.  VISA was started in the late 50's, got it's official name in the mid-70's and didn't reach "everywhere you want to be" until the 2000's.  It's going to take a long time so, dig in and if possible, find ways to create services that make Bitcoin and all of the crypto-currency world more useful.

[kwukduck]

Yea, consumers have absolutely no need and self-interest to use a currency that breaks free from the corruption that is our monetary system right now.
I grant you that most don't care, but that is, hopefully, just ignorance and awareness is changing quickly.

[ixne]

Consumers won't buy BTC for retail spending because paper bills and CC are WAY easier.

Huh?

What exactly is easy about paper bills and CC? I can't wait for the day that I go out to eat with friends and instead of waiting for a confused waitress to split our bills 6 ways, take our cards individually, print out several copies of each of our bills, and have us all individually sign, we just get an address to pay to and send whatever we owe. Done.

[Coinseeker]

I can't wait for the day...

I think you proved my point perfectly.  

[dmartig]

Zanglebert has hit the nail on the head as I've been thinking about this for many months too.  Bitcoin as a day to day currency has issues still to overcome HOWEVER it is the only store of value not related to a specific country that makes it incredibly useful.  Gold is the next best thing yet that still is miles behind what Bitcoin offers...
The advantages of Bitcoin being easily transferable, requires no storage costs at all, can't be copied or hoaxed, Bitcoin has an easy market anyone can trade with and if the trading platforms were for some reason unreachable the trade can still happen person to person or institution to institution.

This leads itself to a very ironic purpose... for countries to store their wealth to back their currency.  As far as I know, there is no common basis for money between countries... like time has GMT, temperature has Kelvin... it's a way for people anywhere on the planet to talk the same language.

Bitcoin could offer this global common ground where anyone or anything can put their value in there safely knowing more can not be printed to dilute it, safely stored until ever needed and easily transferable to a local currency to facility international trade easily.

One btc now is worth something in every country, pick and choose where and when you want to cash it in for your local currency

bitcoin is simply as stated above a "global local currency" just as ithaca hours is the local currency of ithaca new york

[BittBurger]

Consumers have absolutely no motivation to use Bitcoin. 

Source?

Every single person I know.

Probably every single person you know.

Aside from the 1 to 10 possible Bitcoin enthusiasts we know.

[BittBurger]

We know from experience that trickle down economics does not work.  Bitcoin is currently good for merchants but terrible for consumers.  Merchants likely won't reduce prices and will jump on Bitcoin as a way to increase their profit margins by paying fewer fees to the CC companies. Consumers won't buy BTC for retail spending because paper bills and CC are WAY easier.  Not to mention, aquiring Bitcoin is a pain in itself and lets not get started on storing them securely.

This summarizes my original post perfectly.

Much of this can likely be worked out over the coming decade.  The internet was pretty much useless too when it started.  It takes time to build useful infrastructure.

Lets hope Gavin has theses issues at the top of his "To Do" list, because the longer they fester, the greater chance the media picks up on them, and this will be the focus of Bitcoin.   The avalanche of media attention pointing out that you can't do chargebacks hasn't happened yet.   Someone better get their sh*t together and fix it before the avalanche comes.   The only response to this I've seen is that consumers and merchants have to work through the problem together.  That of course is an invalid solution which won't fly.  

We need to make adoption not only EASY, but DESIRABLE.   If its only EASY and there's no incentive making it DESIRABLE, then it wont happen.  If its DESIRABLE, but  not easy, then it wont happen.  Currently bitcoin is NOT easy and in many ways NOT desirable to consumers.  

Someone needs to fix both.  Quick.

[ixne]

I can't wait for the day...

I think you proved my point perfectly.  

Non sequitur alert, abandoning conversation...

[johnyj]

If you have acquired 100 bitcoins, it does not hurt to spend one coin. So bitcoin is also very useful for consumers, but the difference with fiat money is that you have to first save then spend. And this is a good thing, this will eliminate the financial risk of a loan based consumption model

[papaminer]

What incentive do consumers have to use Bitcoin at all?

---> There is no such thing as "INCENTIVE" in using any money at all.. LET ME ASK YOU.. do you get "INCENTIVE" using CASH? The only reason people are using CASH is because EVERYBODY USES it...

Maybe you defined INCENTIVE as CONVENIENCE? Even if you use CONVENIENCE... CASH STILL FALL SHORT to BITCOIN in terms of CONVENIENCE...

HOW ABOUT THIS ----> WHAT GOOD IS YOUR PAPER MONEY IF NOBODY ACCEPTS IT??? Well.. actually MANY BANKS WILL STILL ACCEPT YOUR PAPER MONEY... they have too... they created/printed that money.... and they have to SHOW it is WORTH SOMETHING???

----> but WHAT WILL YOU DO if.. a RESTAURANT DOES NOT ACCEPT PAPER MONEY??? CAN YOU STILL EAT IN THAT RESTAURANT???

This happened to me (so BASED ON TRUE STORY)... Me and my wife went to our favorite restaurant... and they "USED" to accept "AMERICAN EXPRESS"...we used to go there a lot... (and well I have PLATINUM AMEX... so I was feeling good that time and we can order "ANYTHING"... next stop is Centurion Card 'iwish' LoL) However, this restaurant stops ACCEPTING AMEX... and I have to use my visa debitcard to pay for our bill...

You see the situation quoted above? What good is your platinum/Centurion card if they do not ACCEPT IT? Good thing I got the debitcard or me and my wife could have ended washing the dishes the entire day/night...

Especially when it's more difficult than cash. More confusing than cash. More ugly than cash

---> Difficult than cash? My Grandmother is 75 Years old and she has a bitcoin wallet... using it to do CASINO ONLINE... so how hard can it be?

---> Confusing? My Grandmother wasn't confused? She got a few winnings from Online Bitcoin Casino already... and bought us some pizza/chicken from time to time...

---> Ugly? How? bitcoin does not get into dirty hands like cash (literally)... cash can be putt in anybody's BUTT (Sexy stripper or FAT SICK HOMOs) and you still hold that cash in your hands...

[Coinseeker]

You see the situation quoted above? What good is your platinum/Centurion card if they do not ACCEPT IT?

Doesn't this just support the OP, position?  Here, maybe this will help.  For the same situation,

What good is your Bitcoin if they do not ACCEPT IT?

[501]

We know from experience that trickle down economics does not work.  Bitcoin is currently good for merchants but terrible for consumers.  Merchants likely won't reduce prices and will jump on Bitcoin as a way to increase their profit margins by paying fewer fees to the CC companies. Consumers won't buy BTC for retail spending because paper bills and CC are WAY easier.  Not to mention, aquiring Bitcoin is a pain in itself and lets not get started on storing them securely.

Much of this can likely be worked out over the coming decade.  The internet was pretty much useless too when it started.  It takes time to build useful infrastructure.  VISA was started in the late 50's, got it's official name in the mid-70's and didn't reach "everywhere you want to be" until the 2000's.  It's going to take a long time so, dig in and if possible, find ways to create services that make Bitcoin and all of the crypto-currency world more useful.

Merchants would much rather accept btc than cc, therefore many merchants (like myself) will, at least initially, decrease prices in order to promote btc purchases. Now some merchants may increase them again after awhile but then other smaller merchants will simply continue offering the discounts and the merchants selling above the equilibrium will go out of business.

Many people don't understand just how much merchants love bitcoin. Here are a couple stats from my own business:
- 15% of our capital goes to accounting/fraud department.
- About 1 hour per day spent (wasted) responding to fraudulent chargebacks/disputes.
- 2% of total revenue stolen by Visa/Amex as a result of fraudulent chargebacks, plus the dollar value of those items that were not returned.
- 3% of total revenue immediately deducted for cc transaction fees.

Want to know how easy it is for a consumer to scam with fiat? Sign up for Amex. Buy something. Call Amex and say you didn't buy it. Get money back, and keep the item as well. That's it. Merchants HATE credit cards, we're just forced to accept them because they basically have a monopoly on the fiat market.

Then when you look like a company like Apple they probably have an even bigger amount wasted on fake chargebacks because kids use their parents' cc's to buy apps and stuff and then the parents dispute it. All you need is 1 big company like Apple to start accepting btc and then it's game over for fiat.  

[papaminer]

You see the situation quoted above? What good is your platinum/Centurion card if they do not ACCEPT IT?

Doesn't this just support the OP, position?  Here, maybe this will help:

What good is your Bitcoin if they do not ACCEPT IT?

Not really... you have to UNDERSTAND... HOW "NEW" IS BITCOIN COMPARE TO CASH/AMEX/ETC... MY example was... ACCEPTING AMEX BEFORE and NOT ACCEPTING AMEX ANYMORE... This is not bitcoin... bitcoin is the other way around...

People did not start using PAPER money right away... IT TOOK HUNDREDS OF YEARS... before we switch from GOLD/SILVER to PAPER MONEY

How many people uses BITCOIN from last "2 years" ago versus people using bitcoins "TODAY"

Rome Wasn't Built in a Day

[PenAndPaper]

If you have acquired 100 bitcoins, it does not hurt to spend one coin. So bitcoin is also very useful for consumers, but the difference with fiat money is that you have to first save then spend. And this is a good thing, this will eliminate the financial risk of a loan based consumption model

What happens if you haven't and you will never in your life acquire 100 bitcoins? 

[Coinseeker]

We know from experience that trickle down economics does not work.  Bitcoin is currently good for merchants but terrible for consumers.  Merchants likely won't reduce prices and will jump on Bitcoin as a way to increase their profit margins by paying fewer fees to the CC companies. Consumers won't buy BTC for retail spending because paper bills and CC are WAY easier.  Not to mention, aquiring Bitcoin is a pain in itself and lets not get started on storing them securely.

Much of this can likely be worked out over the coming decade.  The internet was pretty much useless too when it started.  It takes time to build useful infrastructure.  VISA was started in the late 50's, got it's official name in the mid-70's and didn't reach "everywhere you want to be" until the 2000's.  It's going to take a long time so, dig in and if possible, find ways to create services that make Bitcoin and all of the crypto-currency world more useful.

Merchants would much rather accept btc than cc, therefore many merchants (like myself) will, at least initially, decrease prices in order to promote btc purchases. Now some merchants may increase them again after awhile but then other smaller merchants will simply continue offering the discounts and the merchants selling above the equilibrium will go out of business.

Many people don't understand just how much merchants love bitcoin. Here are a couple stats from my own business:
- 15% of our capital goes to accounting/fraud department.
- About 1 hour per day spent (wasted) responding to fraudulent chargebacks/disputes.
- 2% of total revenue stolen by Visa/Amex as a result of fraudulent chargebacks, plus the dollar value of those items that were not returned.
- 3% of total revenue immediately deducted for cc transaction fees.

Want to know how easy it is for a consumer to scam with fiat? Sign up for Amex. Buy something. Call Amex and say you didn't buy it. Get money back, and keep the item as well. That's it. Merchants HATE credit cards, we're just forced to accept them because they basically have a monopoly on the fiat market.

Then when you look like a company like Apple they probably have an even bigger amount wasted on fake chargebacks because kids use their parents' cc's to buy apps and stuff and then the parents dispute it. All you need is 1 big company like Apple to start accepting btc and then it's game over for fiat.  

So in short...good for merchants, terrible for consumers.  At least for now.  Got it.

[thehedgemon]

Playing devils advocate here.

It's been bothering me lately, thinking about this. Consumers have absolutely no motivation to use Bitcoin. And because of that, I don't understand how it will ever go global.

All the motivation is for merchants. They avoid merchant fees. They get no chargebacks.  But they're also going to get no sales (aside from enthusiasts), because consumers have no incentive to use it, whatsoever.

Where are the perks for consumers, in a situation where they're buying something with bitcoin?

The only benefit Bitcoin brings to consumers, is money transfers. People who send money Home to their families in other countries. Bitcoin will corner the market that Western Union currently dominates. And probably put it out of business. While that is a huge industry, it's a fraction of how big Bitcoin could become if consumers used it for purchasing.

What incentive do consumers have to use Bitcoin at all? None. And because of that, it's never going to be adopted worldwide. Again, playing devils advocate here. I want to hear people's responses to this. Because in my mind, it seems to be true. And that is depressing.

You may say, it's just like cash, what motivation do people have to use cash. Or it adds a level of privacy. But these aren't significant enough benefits for a worldwide paradigm change. We're talking about adopting a new paradigm here. There needs to be incentive, for people to even bother making a huge change like this. Especially when it's more difficult than cash. More confusing than cash. More ugly than cash, requiring people to understand several decimal place fractions and other complicated things. So not only is there zero incentive to use it, but there are several reasons why they wouldn't.

There needs to be something huge, global, significant, about Bitcoin that will motivate people who buy things to say "Forget this silly cash! Forget my credit cards!"

Tell me why this is wrong. Please.

The same could be said about Gold or Silver

[Coinseeker]

You see the situation quoted above? What good is your platinum/Centurion card if they do not ACCEPT IT?

Doesn't this just support the OP, position?  Here, maybe this will help:

What good is your Bitcoin if they do not ACCEPT IT?

Not really... you have to UNDERSTAND... HOW "NEW" IS BITCOIN COMPARE TO CASH/AMEX/ETC... MY example was... ACCEPTING AMEX BEFORE and NOT ACCEPTING AMEX ANYMORE... This is not bitcoin... bitcoin is the other way around...

People did not start using PAPER money right away... IT TOOK HUNDREDS OF YEARS... before we switch from GOLD/SILVER to PAPER MONEY

How many people uses BITCOIN from last "2 years" ago versus people using bitcoins "TODAY"

Rome Wasn't Built in a Day

First, your caps crap, doesn't emphasis your point any better.  It's just annoying actually.  Second, you quoted the "dining" scenario and are now running from it.  Pick a position and stick with it.

If you read my comments on the subject, you'll see I clearly stated, "likely to be worked out in the coming decade."  So, the rest of your rant was really a waste of my time to read and your time to type.

[papaminer]

You see the situation quoted above? What good is your platinum/Centurion card if they do not ACCEPT IT?

Doesn't this just support the OP, position?  Here, maybe this will help:

What good is your Bitcoin if they do not ACCEPT IT?

Not really... you have to UNDERSTAND... HOW "NEW" IS BITCOIN COMPARE TO CASH/AMEX/ETC... MY example was... ACCEPTING AMEX BEFORE and NOT ACCEPTING AMEX ANYMORE... This is not bitcoin... bitcoin is the other way around...

People did not start using PAPER money right away... IT TOOK HUNDREDS OF YEARS... before we switch from GOLD/SILVER to PAPER MONEY

How many people uses BITCOIN from last "2 years" ago versus people using bitcoins "TODAY"

Rome Wasn't Built in a Day

First, your caps crap, doesn't emphasis your point any better.  It's just annoying actually.  Second, you quoted the "dining" scenario and are now running from it.  Pick a position and stick with it.

If you read my comments on the subject, you'll see I clearly stated, "likely to be worked out in the coming decade."  So, the rest of your rant was really a waste of my time to read and your time to type.

then stop quoting/replying to me...

my post wasn't for u in the first place...

Have a nice day..

[Nagle]

Almost nobody is accepting Bitcoins for products that don't have huge markups. Look in "Goods". It's like reading Craigslist. Keychains, necklaces, old stamps, books, games, and coins, "Fake G-Shock Watches" (Why? Real ones are only about $50), and other garage-sale junk.  Plus various Bitcoin-related items. Also silver and gold, just the thing to buy from an anonymous party using an irrevocable money transfer, and usually being sold at a big markup.

Take a look at BitPay's merchant list. It's mostly stuff that doesn't cost much, if anything, to make, has a huge markup, or is drug-related. T-shirts, stock graphics, web hosting, etc. Bitcoinshop.us has real products like laptops, but the first product they list, an "ASUS G750JX-DB71 17.3-Inch Laptop (Black)" is ฿2.4559, (times Bitstamp price of $825/BTC = $2026). Amazon offers that at $1,808.98.

That's what Bitcoin retail looks like. Lame.

Bitcoin just isn't being used seriously as a currency.

[bluemeanie1]

Playing devils advocate here.

It's been bothering me lately, thinking about this. Consumers have absolutely no motivation to use Bitcoin. And because of that, I don't understand how it will ever go global.

All the motivation is for merchants. They avoid merchant fees. They get no chargebacks.  But they're also going to get no sales (aside from enthusiasts), because consumers have no incentive to use it, whatsoever.

...

Tell me why this is wrong. Please.

theoretically the overhead in using Bitcoin is lower, thus you can carry lower prices in real terms.

building all this business structure on top of bitcoin somewhat cancels out this effect however.  Certainly having all this expensive mining structure certainly brings Bitcoins general value proposition into question.