The official "what about the roads?" thread

[Elwar]

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/05/05/sen-introduces-bill-to-test-out-taxing-motorists-for-every-mile-they-drive/

While I do not like taxes, pay per use is a better option. Unfortunately the government charging for use is a monopoly which never works out.

The benefit I can see from this move is that they set up the infrastructure that could then be used by private companies to buy the roads and charge per mile. But I would not think the transition would go very smoothly.

[1715424973]

1715424973

[Elwar]

[Robert Paulson]

this argument is so stupid.
whats so special about the government? its just another group of people, why do we need them to build roads.
if roads are needed then competing private companies will build them alot more efficiently than some government bureaucrats.
think of all the best products you use, did the government make any of them? we use insanely complicated electronics all produced by the private sector and yet people think that for some reason the same private sector can't build a plain stupid highway.

[EternalWingsofGod]

This thread is solely for people who can think. People who can think outside of the box to post how they would create a road system or a way for people to travel without the need for government.

You can describe it on a small scale, at the city or county level, the state level or nationally.

Your system must allow people to have easement enough to leave their homes and get to the road system.

I have self moderated this thread to allow people to throw out ideas without people nitpicking every little idea to death.

I will throw my ideas out there but would like to see what others think (please do not just post links to other private road systems).

As a bonus, how would you incorporate Bitcoin into your system?

Seems fun enough

Why not just clear cut a roadway then use it as a private road no government needed kind of like the olden days where people carved their own paths and once enough people used it someone paved it for a fee, but as an aside lets see.

A way for people to travel without the need for government, simple enough put rollerblades on shoes then add an electric generator to them produce electricity while moving and rolling around and get from A to B, kind of like an electric bicycle.

Then there are toll roads people love using those as an example to escape the good old tradgedy of the commons but in my opinion a transit system entriely underground beats a road most days.

If we went underground for transportation besides high inital overhead costs no congestion no easements for indiviudals and if we get magnetic trains going, all privately funded perhaps with Bitcoin and then a credit system that debits bitcoin instantly from your balance to use it might have futuristic transportation models.

After all if a High speed train using magnetic rail and having a perfect right of way underground can compete with a plane, why bother with the sky route.
(Or I guess to add a bonus could even get a whole entire lighted railway system using solar panels)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Ra2_RrnKc

Personally I like the idea of pods that seems fun kind of like ski gondolas
http://www.fastcolabs.com/3034687/new-jersey-is-testing-solar-power-commuter-pods

My vote is for the pods they look cool and they can pretty much substitute and replace cars and roadways with perhaps a bit more infrastrucutre
(Train on top)
Put the pods on the bottom of the track which is unused currently piggybacking (or perhaps even on sidewalks or a bunch of pods for a roadway instead of cars)

Ah the mad scientist in me smiles at the pod future XD
http://vimeo.com/87069041

Anyways the pod idea I posted links but it wasn't mentioned yet so apologies looked neat enough and it was hard to explain without those nice illustrations
We are all human packets moving along a transporation grid ^_^

[Elwar]

For a small island I think these would be great for getting around:

[Elwar]

Solar Roads:


Plus induction charging roads:


No more need for gasoline.

The roads can charge bitcoins for the electricity produced.

[steelhouse]

All the roads of a 1 square mile geographic area should be administered by an elected road minister.  That way you elect someone with a degree or experience on roads not some liberal mayor.  There should never be employees of the city maintaining roads and all workers should be non-union.  Tax the cars for a permit to use the roads maybe $1000 a year to keep out the riff raff.  Limit the population of a city to prevent it from getting too big. Toll roads are too costly.  The payment for roads should never come from property taxes.

During the election the road minister might campaign on price or quality.  One candidate might say he can maintain all the roads for $444.  Another might say he can have solar roads for $2211 for 5 years, then $1000 after that.  A third might want to end roads $0.  You would give the people a choice in a geographic area.  

[BADecker]

If the government wasn't there, there wouldn't be any Federal Aviation Administration. People would develop air cars. Parking at some business and residential would be on roofs. Other could be accessed without roads. Roads would only be for bicycles and walkers, and emergency vehicles... which are often built to travel off-road anyway.

[Elwar]

If the government wasn't there, there wouldn't be any Federal Aviation Administration. People would develop air cars. Parking at some business and residential would be on roofs. Other could be accessed without roads. Roads would only be for bicycles and walkers, and emergency vehicles... which are often built to travel off-road anyway.

When people were contemplating these things long ago, I think most figured flight would play a major role in transportation. But with the government subsidizing the roads, they essentially chose the winning technology to solve the transportation problem. Just like how wireless telephones were starting to come online in the 1930s but the government stepped in granting monopoly status to wired telephone technology (for the good of the people).

[steelhouse]

If the government wasn't there, there wouldn't be any Federal Aviation Administration. People would develop air cars. Parking at some business and residential would be on roofs. Other could be accessed without roads. Roads would only be for bicycles and walkers, and emergency vehicles... which are often built to travel off-road anyway.

When people were contemplating these things long ago, I think most figured flight would play a major role in transportation. But with the government subsidizing the roads, they essentially chose the winning technology to solve the transportation problem. Just like how wireless telephones were starting to come online in the 1930s but the government stepped in granting monopoly status to wired telephone technology (for the good of the people).

flight does play an important role in transportation. I really like the picture because I think the cities could save a ton of money building subways/bullet trains/solar roads on top of buildings like the picture shows.  Furthermore the trains could be perfectly straight and level for a very fast and smooth ride.  Furthermore if you have the station on top of a building, you would save walking time.

[zimmah]

Roads are made by humans, those same humans can build roads without the need of a government.

As long as there is any incentive.

In fact, in the Netherlands, they once build a road to protest against being unemployed. A large group of unemployed people build a road, because they were fed up with being unemployed. It's the first case of reverse strike.

Anything the government does, is done by humans, anything they can do, can be done by other humans, as long as there is incentive to do so.

[TheButterZone]

There is no incentive for any spontaneous order without government. 

[zimmah]

Solar Roads:


Plus induction charging roads:


No more need for gasoline.

The roads can charge bitcoins for the electricity produced.

they NEED to make all the roads like this and make them smart-roads for smart-cars.

In other words, next to the obvious solar power benefits (with the amount of roads we have, we would probably be able to power all cars and probably all or most of the households as well) the cars and roads could communicate with each other. Each panel can easily see if there is a car above them and communicate this to some kind of data center which can lead traffic by changing the speed limits (maybe even making the cars run on their own to traffic them more efficiently and safely) changing stop signs and traffic lights and other signs. Or suggesting a different route to avoid traffic jams and road maintenance.

Of course this project would take quite some time and money, but it will be worth every penny.

[Elwar]

they NEED to make all the roads like this and make them smart-roads for smart-cars.

In other words, next to the obvious solar power benefits (with the amount of roads we have, we would probably be able to power all cars and probably all or most of the households as well) the cars and roads could communicate with each other. Each panel can easily see if there is a car above them and communicate this to some kind of data center which can lead traffic by changing the speed limits (maybe even making the cars run on their own to traffic them more efficiently and safely) changing stop signs and traffic lights and other signs. Or suggesting a different route to avoid traffic jams and road maintenance.

Of course this project would take quite some time and money, but it will be worth every penny.

There is no incentive to improve the roads because there is no competition.

[BADecker]

they NEED to make all the roads like this and make them smart-roads for smart-cars.

In other words, next to the obvious solar power benefits (with the amount of roads we have, we would probably be able to power all cars and probably all or most of the households as well) the cars and roads could communicate with each other. Each panel can easily see if there is a car above them and communicate this to some kind of data center which can lead traffic by changing the speed limits (maybe even making the cars run on their own to traffic them more efficiently and safely) changing stop signs and traffic lights and other signs. Or suggesting a different route to avoid traffic jams and road maintenance.

Of course this project would take quite some time and money, but it will be worth every penny.

There is no incentive to improve the roads because there is no competition.

Consider that people can't afford to keep on repairing their vehicles because the bad roads damage them. When this happens, less gasoline and other car products are sold (even though more parts are sold for a time). Then the oil companies get after government to make changes.

[BootstrapCoinDev]

I guess air roads will be considered important and widely celebrated, until they need more gravel for a new parking somewhere in the vicinity.

[EternalWingsofGod]

Back on this topic for a bit but was thinking of Templin as an example of a fully subsidzed government transporation system which had frequency delay and stochastic delays and got most of its riders from people who would walk or bike before but because its free transit decided to take the bus.

On the other end we could try a Philippines Jeepney model where its privatly run there are multiple operators and everyone has a profit incentive with little delay because these things are functioning all the time, with new routes created whenever there is a lack of demand.

Question is in application to roads how would congestion be handled in these scenarios, the ability to stop anywhere anytime with a Jeepney is damn convinient and because its cheap it can compete as an intermodal alternative to cars but kind of tricky to figure out a way to motivate people to make the infrastrucure less a toll road where people pay more to use this road as a competitor to a free road.

Any thoughts?

Oh and where Bitcoin would be is in charging people to use the toll road very quick scan of a Bitcoin address upon entering and exiting the road means it would be cheap to utilize as a payment mechanism, without all these extra upkeep costs.

(In regards to Solar roads a toll system to use it and a rent a car model with vehicles that can be powered by these roads seems like an interesting idea)

One way to get it started at least, as people with an interest in a low usage road would try it out as they value their time and don't like getting stuck in congestion, and if they want to rent or buy a car that is compatible with this roadway and gets additional power from it then bonus.

Eventually it could scale and force governments to think about rebuilding all road infrasturture to this new point of equibirium.

[BitMos]

There is no incentive for any spontaneous order without government.  

I prefer to see that some people don't have the capacity to appreciate complex spontaneous order, and thus far always push to impose simplistic (that appears to them complex btw) solutions that interfere with the most subtle, personal and individual solution that an individual can provide.

the core problem it's harder to control spontaneous order...

What I don't like about transport collectivization is that some people don't want to move, and have to pay for those that want to move. Furthermore I prefer to have my private vehicle, because I can do what ever inside once self-moving like eating, reading, listening to what ever, sleeping, do what ever, let what ever, where ever, I don't have to ask anyone to agree to anything in my vehicle.

If only they could fly...

and before you think I am an Unicorn dreamer, just please accept that it's impossible to have exponential mobility growth on a surface... The first solid contact between the Universe and the Earth shouldn't be a road... I prefer green pasture... you don't need shoes .