Any other Americans considering a claim against the FBI over SilkRoad?

[jballs]

RIP aaron swartz. he, bradley manning and snowden are true fucking martyrs to me. i don't know about julian assange, as he seems like he could be seedy.. but those 3 guys gave up their lives to get the truth out to us.

And the latest, Jeremy Hammond.

Hammond is particularly tragic as there is no grey area in what he exposed. Firms were hired to draw false connections between political activists and terrorists, presumably so they could invoke the NDAA and treat the political activists as terrorists (indefinite detention etc). This all came out in Hedges v. Obama and is on record, only because Hammond released it to the world. Yet instead of that conspiracy even seeing the light of day, Hammond got 10 years to sweep it all under the rug.

[1715083648]

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[1715083648]

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[Hawker]

If you succeed the court would return the wrongly frozen assets back to you.  I don't think I have to point out how much of an uphill battle that will be and how much the three letter agencies will turn over every aspect of your life to see if there is fire where there is smoke but it is your right as part of due diligence. 

Well, I never bought anything on that site, but I sure wouldn't relish the thought of the FBI, ATF etc up my business for a mere $30K; but I strongly suspect that number is going to continue to rise. 

Sorry for your loss.

Why not just walk into your local police station, say your property has been taken during someone else's arrest and ask if there is a form to fill in?  It might be a good place to start and at least they will know a lawyer who specialises in the area.

[FenixRD]

I was using SilkRoad only to store a selection of bitcoins offsite.  I've never bought any drugs from the site, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one.  They took about 30 bitcoins from me when they snatched Silk Road, and I'm considering sueing them now considering their present value.  Anyone else thinking about this?  Anyone here have any experience with such a claim?

This is relevant to my interests. I have 35 BTC (iirc) in SR, and I too was only there out of curiosity. I wanted to know how the seller interface differed from the user interface, and had plenty of coins, so I paid the (whatever it was) for a seller account. Forgot about it until DPR got nabbed.

In addition to all the other issues, there's still the fact that these are all still encrypted, I assume. The feds appear to assume this too, based on the senate hearing last week. Everyone had a good chuckle about the unique situation (for them) where they had confiscated so much value that couldn't be touched. They can look through records and stuff all they like; I never did anything with my account than look around, but this was back when coins were like $5 or so, and I never bothered to pull the remaining ones of the 50.

If you get any interesting info, shoot me a PM. I'm not pursuing it unless I have reason to believe the PrivKeys can be had, but if I change my mind or find out something, I'll likewise give you a shout...

[DeathAndTaxes]

The FBI moved the coins.  Either they brute forced the wallet password, timed the arrest when the wallet as unlocked, or DPR gave up the password.  Either way they coins have been sent to private keys controlled by the government.  The block chain is proof of that.  Can't move coins you don't have the private key for.

[FenixRD]

The FBI moved the coins.  Either they brute forced the wallet password, timed the arrest when the wallet as unlocked, or DPR gave up the password.  Either way they coins have been sent to private keys controlled by the government.  The block chain is proof of that.  Can't move coins you don't have the private key for.

I've obviously not kept up with the happenings on this, then. I was under the impression that DPR had not provided the prikey(s)... I remember, shortly after the arrest of Ulbricht, hearing this cited as circumstantial evidence they may not have caught the real DPR. And that there were also a good number of coins for which they didn't even have an address for, so we didn't know how many there were.

Googling now, I guess, since I've clearly had a severe memory lapse...

[MoonShadow]

The FBI moved the coins.  Either they brute forced the wallet password, timed the arrest when the wallet as unlocked, or DPR gave up the password.  Either way they coins have been sent to private keys controlled by the government.  The block chain is proof of that.  Can't move coins you don't have the private key for.

They've moved the coins that were deposited into the server pool addresses, because that wallet.dat was probably on the server itself.  Last that I heard, the address that the feds assume was the private wallet of DPR had not been moved; and if it had it would be more likely to be proof that they have a fallguy, and that DPR just moved them to make that point clear.  It's hard to access the Internet securely from a jail cell.

[TiagoTiago]

The FBI moved the coins.  Either they brute forced the wallet password, timed the arrest when the wallet as unlocked, or DPR gave up the password.  Either way they coins have been sent to private keys controlled by the government.  The block chain is proof of that.  Can't move coins you don't have the private key for.

They've moved the coins that were deposited into the server pool addresses, because that wallet.dat was probably on the server itself.  Last that I heard, the address that the feds assume was the private wallet of DPR had not been moved; and if it had it would be more likely to be proof that they have a fallguy, and that DPR just moved them to make that point clear.  It's hard to access the Internet securely from a jail cell.

Depending on the jail, it's not that hard to get a smartphone with a data plan in, specially if you're loaded.

[dank]

Hahahaha, you're as stupid as the dealers, junkies and any other criminal fucktard that used that site. GO for it, file a claim, give them reason to know who you are and arrest your delinquent ass too. With you being a site user, it will certainly make you a suspect if you open your mouth, just go ahead and file your claim, that will be great. hahahaha. Fricken criminal scum and anarchist trash need to be put in prison, it was a great bust Silk Road, so many leads now. Lock all them bastards up.

Well, you're definitely an aware human being that shows empathy and understanding towards other people's freedom and rights.

[MoonShadow]

The FBI moved the coins.  Either they brute forced the wallet password, timed the arrest when the wallet as unlocked, or DPR gave up the password.  Either way they coins have been sent to private keys controlled by the government.  The block chain is proof of that.  Can't move coins you don't have the private key for.

They've moved the coins that were deposited into the server pool addresses, because that wallet.dat was probably on the server itself.  Last that I heard, the address that the feds assume was the private wallet of DPR had not been moved; and if it had it would be more likely to be proof that they have a fallguy, and that DPR just moved them to make that point clear.  It's hard to access the Internet securely from a jail cell.

Depending on the jail, it's not that hard to get a smartphone with a data plan in, specially if you're loaded.

He's been in a Federal holding jail for most of the time, and the Gmen have been watching him like a hawk for this exact reason.

[hilariousandco]

The FBI moved the coins.  Either they brute forced the wallet password, timed the arrest when the wallet as unlocked, or DPR gave up the password.  Either way they coins have been sent to private keys controlled by the government.  The block chain is proof of that.  Can't move coins you don't have the private key for.

They've moved the coins that were deposited into the server pool addresses, because that wallet.dat was probably on the server itself.  Last that I heard, the address that the feds assume was the private wallet of DPR had not been moved; and if it had it would be more likely to be proof that they have a fallguy, and that DPR just moved them to make that point clear.  It's hard to access the Internet securely from a jail cell.

Depending on the jail, it's not that hard to get a smartphone with a data plan in, specially if you're loaded.

He's been in a Federal holding jail for most of the time, and the Gmen have been watching him like a hawk for this exact reason.

Yeah, they know how dangerous it would be to let him loose with a phone. It's still not impossible for him to get one, but I'm sure they're doing everything within their power to minimise the risk.

[niothor]

Half of me is saying "Do it". I'm most interested in proving in a court you own some bitcoins.
The other half is saying , "Nope" for obvious reason. I'm sure they have some felonies for which they haven't found the criminal you yet.

[MoonShadow]

Half of me is saying "Do it". I'm most interested in proving in a court you own some bitcoins.
The other half is saying , "Nope" for obvious reason. I'm sure they have some felonies for which they haven't found the criminal you yet.

And that is why I'm wavering....

[Spendulus]

Half of me is saying "Do it". I'm most interested in proving in a court you own some bitcoins.
The other half is saying , "Nope" for obvious reason. I'm sure they have some felonies for which they haven't found the criminal you yet.

And that is why I'm wavering....

I guess I'm genuinely interested in the legal aspects of this.  Given the Eric Holder/complete lawlessness issue, it really should be in a court room rather than the administrative divisions.  But here's the general scenario as I see it:

Marketplace ABC has trade accounts with X number persons.  Not disputable X/2 of those were engaged in activities illegal in their jurisdiction.  Others were curious about the site and may have placed minor amounts of coin there in 2010/2011.  Market changes caused those small amounts to become fortunes.

FBI takes said trade accounts....do they have to pay some or all of the trade account funds back?

Say they confiscated funds from an individual in Colorado who had bought marihuana on Silk Road from another individual in Colorado, said purchase being legal in Colorado (he might have bought from an unauthorized/unlicensed source, but that would be a state not a federal problem). 

I'm smelling a class action suit here....but what do I know, maybe the current social/political environment is so oppressive and totalitarian that everyone just sits in the corner shaking in fear.

Obviously a lot of people have standing to sue.

[jballs]

Half of me is saying "Do it". I'm most interested in proving in a court you own some bitcoins.
The other half is saying , "Nope" for obvious reason. I'm sure they have some felonies for which they haven't found the criminal you yet.

And that is why I'm wavering....

I guess I'm genuinely interested in the legal aspects of this.  Given the Eric Holder/complete lawlessness issue, it really should be in a court room rather than the administrative divisions.  But here's the general scenario as I see it:

Marketplace ABC has trade accounts with X number persons.  Not disputable X/2 of those were engaged in activities illegal in their jurisdiction.  Others were curious about the site and may have placed minor amounts of coin there in 2010/2011.  Market changes caused those small amounts to become fortunes.

FBI takes said trade accounts....do they have to pay some or all of the trade account funds back?

Say they confiscated funds from an individual in Colorado who had bought marihuana on Silk Road from another individual in Colorado, said purchase being legal in Colorado (he might have bought from an unauthorized/unlicensed source, but that would be a state not a federal problem).  

I'm smelling a class action suit here....but what do I know, maybe the current social/political environment is so oppressive and totalitarian that everyone just sits in the corner shaking in fear.

Obviously a lot of people have standing to sue.

That. And it is entirely warranted fear. You are taking two areas where the gov has demonstrated it will act above anyreasonable interpretation of the law and combining them. Illegal use of a computer (see Aaron Swarz, rip) and the war on drugs (#winning for 42 consecutive years).

You are confusing some sense of justice with the US legal system. The DEA has arrested and convicted airplanes, on suspicion of having been used for trafficking at some point in their lives. They have confiscated cash upon suspicion that it was drug money because only drug dealers carry cash.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/struggling-minnesota-waitress-sues-police-seize-12000-tip/story?id=16074433

That's just the first one that came up on google. There's thousand just like it.

So you can sue, and hope they don't example you by charging you with frequenting, attempted money laundering, tax evasion, computer fraud/abuse, aiding and abetting terrorists (piracy, ya know), or any other stupid thing they can conjure up. Which is endless. Asset forfeiture is the least of your potential problems, your criminal defense would cost a lot more than you are walking away from.

But if you want to be a martyr I will give you my utmost respect and even send you letters in prison. It isn't about the right thing, at this point. It's about choosing who to pick a fight with and when, and knowing when you will be crushed regardless of justice. I would not pick this fight.


------
 
Edit- imagine if they lined you up with a judge whose only internet experience consisted of an email account, drudgereport, and maybe a facebook page that he/she has never really figured out how to use.

They get... "defendant converted dollars to an encrypted currency used predominantly for illicit purposes and smuggling via the internet. Defendant then transferred a substantial amount of encrypted currency (over $30,000 worth) to an encrypted website, accessible only through a sophisticated surreptitious browser designed to conceal online activities, most commonly used by pedophiles and terrorists. Defendant delivered these encrypted funds anonymously, with full knowledge it would be received by persons engaged in wanton criminal activity, and defendant has no stated legitimate purpose for doing business in this manner..."

Good luck explaining to your computer illiterate judge that you just wanted to understand how the platform worked, you didn't know this, you didn't know that, you didn't think it was that much money...judges love that shit. 30 years, maybe a last minute plea bargain to 5-7 if you are squeeky clean.


------
Final edit, I promise. You need to read this to understand what you are dealing with. The final sentencing guideline was 35 years in a federal prison after he refuse a plea bargain.

So you understand the reality before you read this. JSTOR is academic journals. They are freely available to download for anybody on the MIT campus. Their terms of service had set some arbitrary limit on the total number of downloads, but it was a large number. Aaron left his laptop on campus set to auto download all the academic journals on JSTOR, allegedly to take them and make them freely available to people off campus as well. The public could buy any of these papers for a couple bucks via the JSTOR website, or go to the MIT campus and download them for free also.

With that understanding of the "crime", here is the indictment

http://web.mit.edu/bitbucket/Swartz,%20Aaron%20Indictment.pdf

now imagine Silk Road...

[darkmule]

You will probably be arrested for frequenting a place where drugs are being dealt.

There's no such offense at the federal level (though there may be something similar).  Even if there were, it would be unconstitutional, and probably state frequenting laws are unconstitutional as well.

I'm sure they could think of something, though.  Accuse you of money laundering and either actually prosecute you just for pissing them off, or try to pin some kind of liability on you for participating in a money laundering enterprise. 

OP would be well advised to consult a good lawyer with criminal drug and forfeiture experience.  It would be worth it to cultivate a contact now, in case the value of the BTC in question is actually worth pursuing it during the period where you can.

[hilariousandco]

You will probably be arrested for frequenting a place where drugs are being dealt.

There's no such offense at the federal level (though there may be something similar).  Even if there were, it would be unconstitutional, and probably state frequenting laws are unconstitutional as well.

I'm sure they could think of something, though.  Accuse you of money laundering and either actually prosecute you just for pissing them off, or try to pin some kind of liability on you for participating in a money laundering enterprise. 

OP would be well advised to consult a good lawyer with criminal drug and forfeiture experience.  It would be worth it to cultivate a contact now, in case the value of the BTC in question is actually worth pursuing it during the period where you can.

Lots of journalists and police accessed it. I don't think the site in itself was illegal per se, just 99% of the stuff it sold was, and obviously they weren't paying taxes on profits. It's probably a grey area.

I wonder if there's any lawyers on here. Might be worth making a thread in the Law section. Would be interested to see what is and what isn't legal regarding these type of black marketplaces.

[Spendulus]

Half of me is saying "Do it". I'm most interested in proving in a court you own some bitcoins.
The other half is saying , "Nope" for obvious reason. I'm sure they have some felonies for which they haven't found the criminal you yet.

And that is why I'm wavering....

I guess I'm genuinely interested in the legal aspects of this.  Given the Eric Holder/complete lawlessness issue, it really should be in a court room rather than the administrative divisions.  But here's the general scenario as I see it:

Marketplace ABC has trade accounts with X number persons.  Not disputable X/2 of those were engaged in activities illegal in their jurisdiction.  Others were curious about the site and may have placed minor amounts of coin there in 2010/2011.  Market changes caused those small amounts to become fortunes.

FBI takes said trade accounts....do they have to pay some or all of the trade account funds back?

Say they confiscated funds from an individual in Colorado who had bought marihuana on Silk Road from another individual in Colorado, said purchase being legal in Colorado (he might have bought from an unauthorized/unlicensed source, but that would be a state not a federal problem).  

I'm smelling a class action suit here....but what do I know, maybe the current social/political environment is so oppressive and totalitarian that everyone just sits in the corner shaking in fear.

Obviously a lot of people have standing to sue.

That. And it is entirely warranted fear. You are taking two areas where the gov has demonstrated it will act above anyreasonable interpretation of the law and combining them. Illegal use of a computer (see Aaron Swarz, rip) and the war on drugs (#winning for 42 consecutive years).

You are confusing some sense of justice with the US legal system. The DEA has arrested and convicted airplanes, on suspicion of having been used for trafficking at some point in their lives. They have confiscated cash upon suspicion that it was drug money because only drug dealers carry cash.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/struggling-minnesota-waitress-sues-police-seize-12000-tip/story?id=16074433

That's just the first one that came up on google. There's thousand just like it.

So you can sue, and hope they don't example you by charging you with frequenting, attempted money laundering, tax evasion, computer fraud/abuse, aiding and abetting terrorists (piracy, ya know), or any other stupid thing they can conjure up. Which is endless. Asset forfeiture is the least of your potential problems, your criminal defense would cost a lot more than you are walking away from.

But if you want to be a martyr I will give you my utmost respect and even send you letters in prison. It isn't about the right thing, at this point. It's about choosing who to pick a fight with and when, and knowing when you will be crushed regardless of justice. I would not pick this fight.


------
 
Edit- imagine if they lined you up with a judge whose only internet experience consisted of an email account, drudgereport, and maybe a facebook page that he/she has never really figured out how to use.

They get... "defendant converted dollars to an encrypted currency used predominantly for illicit purposes and smuggling via the internet. Defendant then transferred a substantial amount of encrypted currency (over $30,000 worth) to an encrypted website, accessible only through a sophisticated surreptitious browser designed to conceal online activities, most commonly used by pedophiles and terrorists. Defendant delivered these encrypted funds anonymously, with full knowledge it would be received by persons engaged in wanton criminal activity, and defendant has no stated legitimate purpose for doing business in this manner..."

Good luck explaining to your computer illiterate judge that you just wanted to understand how the platform worked, you didn't know this, you didn't know that, you didn't think it was that much money...judges love that shit. 30 years, maybe a last minute plea bargain to 5-7 if you are squeeky clean.


------
Final edit, I promise. You need to read this to understand what you are dealing with. The final sentencing guideline was 35 years in a federal prison after he refuse a plea bargain.

So you understand the reality before you read this. JSTOR is academic journals. They are freely available to download for anybody on the MIT campus. Their terms of service had set some arbitrary limit on the total number of downloads, but it was a large number. Aaron left his laptop on campus set to auto download all the academic journals on JSTOR, allegedly to take them and make them freely available to people off campus as well. The public could buy any of these papers for a couple bucks via the JSTOR website, or go to the MIT campus and download them for free also.

With that understanding of the "crime", here is the indictment

http://web.mit.edu/bitbucket/Swartz,%20Aaron%20Indictment.pdf

now imagine Silk Road...

Actually, none of that is relevant to the problem.  It's all true, but it misses the legal issues.

Suppose you were some big time gangster running a bank, and the FBI shut you down.  Some of your customers were shady, some were not.   But their money is theirs.  Now assume that again you are a big time gangster, but you have a business where you have a large accounts payable.  You owe a thousand people fair amounts but the money you have is yours.  They shut you down and take your money, those thousand people are out of luck.

The former situation is closer to this one than the latter.  But you've raised an interesting point; namely, that in a US bank failure you may not get your money back if the FDIC doesn't do their job of protecting the innocent, in a bitcoin exchange or business failure you may not get your coin back because the FBI persecutes the innocent.

[bryant.coleman]

The only group of people who have gained from the closure of Silk Road are the Mexican drug mafias. Earlier, the drugs which were available from the SR were cheap and safe. Those you get on street are adulterated with toxins and a part of the revenue is going towards the organized crime.

[hawkeye]

The only group of people who have gained from the closure of Silk Road are the Mexican drug mafias. Earlier, the drugs which were available from the SR were cheap and safe. Those you get on street are adulterated with toxins and a part of the revenue is going towards the organized crime.

Yep, it was supply meeting demand.  And those supplying the drugs had a reputation to uphold on the site. 

[niothor]

Are you still considering it? And if we hit 500?
I'm curios about the price you're willing to risk finding out that you're a Mexican drug lord that has shipped thousands of kilos of narcotics via SR:).