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Author Topic: Next generation 14nm mining grid  (Read 7465 times)
EBM
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December 05, 2013, 05:47:55 AM
Last edit: December 09, 2013, 07:12:29 AM by EBM
 #1

EDIT:

Full disclosure and humble pie time.

Thanks to a very kind forum member who actually works in chip fabrication and has contacted me with some crucial information, we have to withdraw this. We've been told some wrong information, and by more than one source.

I would just delete this post immediately but that would be dishonest obfuscation. Not what we're about.

The app will still do plenty of other distributed computing tasks on PCs (as it does now) and on mobiles, but mining BTC on mobiles certainly won't be happening in 2014 and possibly not at all.

Apologies for the cock up. It was an honest mistake and we were acting in good faith. Hopefully this public retraction demonstrates that much, at least.

Cheers,
Mark

PS: For the sake of those seeing this for the first time and wondering what it was, it was an invitation to join our startup's Series A investment round, as we're growing quickly and raising funds to scale up.

Part of our startup's roadmap is a mobile version of our volunteer computing PC app: www.charityengine.com

We planned to use next-gen mobile SHA-256 encryption hardware - that's supposedly coming to mobile devices - to mine BTC. Wouldn't make much per device, but would be very efficient and we'd already have lots of mobiles running our app by then anyway. Hence we thought the BTC community might be interested.

That bit isn't going to happen. However, we are now looking at adding a scrypt multi-miner to the mobile version. Won't earn much per device compared to what they'll already be earning (distributed web-crawling for us, mainly) but, if it will work, we will certainly include it.

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December 05, 2013, 07:15:27 AM
 #2

so u will make a cellphone ming app and run a pool? and it will go to charity ?
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December 05, 2013, 03:30:47 PM
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Will go to charity?

Only few will.
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December 05, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
 #4

wait do you expect us to pay you a minimum of $250,000 to take part in using "borrowed" hashpower from a project that doesn't even exist yet?

Besides, just how many phones do you think are needed to even generate 1 GH/s?

either i really don't understand your post or you must think the people around here are crazy.
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December 05, 2013, 05:15:32 PM
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Besides, just how many phones do you think are needed to even generate 1 GH/s?

I would say an iPhone 5 probably can do between 10-20MH/s, so if the got a million of those hooked up and mining, it would be about about 10-20 TH/s

That's a tall order though...
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December 05, 2013, 08:34:38 PM
 #6

Besides, just how many phones do you think are needed to even generate 1 GH/s?

I would say an iPhone 5 probably can do between 10-20MH/s, so if the got a million of those hooked up and mining, it would be about about 10-20 TH/s

That's a tall order though...


Some misunderstandings here - when the mobile SHA-256 chips arrive, a single phone will do well in excess of 1GH/s. They will be effectively little 14nm (or less) ASICs in their own right.

iOS cannot be used. (At least, not yet.) The mobile app is based on the Android version of BOINC - which is already coded and in use. With almost 2m Android devices being activated daily, the potential hashing power is way beyond terascale.

This is not "just a mobile mining app", far from it. It's an existing - and successful - global grid computing platform which is about to expand to mobile devices - and which will be harnessing mobile SHA-256 chips as soon as they arrive, creating a significant mining operation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17995888

Cheers,
Mark

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December 05, 2013, 08:38:30 PM
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Some misunderstandings here - when the mobile SHA-256 chips arrive, a single phone will do well in excess of 1GH/s. They will be effectively little 14nm (or less) ASICs in their own right.

iOS cannot be used. (At least, not yet.) The mobile app is based on the Android version of BOINC - which is already coded and in use. With almost 2m Android devices being activated daily, the potential hashing power is way beyond terascale.

This is not "just a mobile mining app", far from it. It's an existing - and successful - global grid computing platform which is about to expand to mobile devices - and which will be harnessing mobile SHA-256 chips as soon as they arrive, creating a significant mining operation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17995888

Cheers,
Mark

Definitely seems interesting and I hope to read about your future success!

My pockets are nowhere close to being deep enough to invest though Cheesy
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December 05, 2013, 09:01:28 PM
 #8


Definitely seems interesting and I hope to read about your future success!

My pockets are nowhere close to being deep enough to invest though Cheesy


Thanks, much appreciated.

It is a shame we cannot accept smaller investments. Issue is simply logistics - we would have to do due diligence checks on everyone and, even if that was doable, hundreds of shareholders are a whole lot more work than half a dozen.

Plus, it would put institutional investors right off. It's not the done thing until a company goes public.

We do intend to IPO in 3-5 years though, so watch this space!


PS. Is that the Dude? Sweet...

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December 05, 2013, 09:20:55 PM
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I definitely will be looking out for the IPO in the future.

The dude abides...

 Cheesy
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December 05, 2013, 10:09:39 PM
 #10

Hi folks,

This is not an auction, it is a normal Series A investment round in a venture-backed UK company. However, we are long-time supporters of BTC, hence this invite to the community at large. Apart from anything else, this could change the mining landscape significantly.

We plan to harness what will soon be the largest and most efficient pool of hashing power in the world; hundreds of millions of cellphone SHA-256 chips, as described here: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/508061/custom-chips-could-be-the-shovels-in-a-bitcoin-gold-rush/

Although tiny compared to full-scale ASICs, they will make up for it in sheer numbers and efficiency, as mobile chips are always a couple of generations ahead of anything else. Cellphones are also typically idle when charging overnight. The first mobile SHA-256 chips are expected to be 14nm or even better, and should be arriving some time in 2014.

Our USP is that we can persuade device owners to be part of a mining pool, no matter how non-technical they are and even if they don't know what BTC actually is. In other words, the vast majority of people.

This may sound impossible, but we already know how to do it; just use the mobile version of our PC app which already harnesses spare PC computing power to benefit good causes. Our users are nearly all non-techie and have no interest in what the spare computing is used for, just so long as the app works as promised.

Pitch deck explains everything, and why we are raising: http://www.slideshare.net/CharityEngine/charity-engine

The round closes when we reach our target or Jan 31, whichever is sooner. Minimum ticket is $250k. Expressions of interest should be sent to mark @ charityengine.com, subject line 'BTC investor'.

Thanks for your time.


Regards,

Mark McAndrew
CEO
http://www.svc2uk.com/100club/ceo-profiles/

PS. Please note: we have a strict ethical policy, set by our official partner charities, and must perform background checks on any potential business partners. Any criminal history (excepting minor offences) cannot be accepted. As previously stated, this is a normal investment round for shares in a technology company, not just a mining operation.

Pipe down and see here.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
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December 05, 2013, 10:43:44 PM
 #11

Cellphones are also typically idle when charging overnight.
So you'd mine during that time? That is so stupid.
First of all, that would mean the chip wouldn't be used 24/7. What a waste!
Then, the additional electric consumption during charging would slow down the charging and harm the battery (very sensitive to heating!).

You are assuming what we have and haven't thought of - or, more accurately, what the BOINC team at Berkeley University have or haven't thought of. That's the software we use.

Only the mining app is waiting for the mobile SHA-256 chips, the Android version of BOINC is already live and working on many distributed computing projects.

The software waits until the battery has charged first and doesn't run 'full tilt'. It does not harm the battery at all - although it does warm it very slightly, that's true. However, the effect on battery longevity is negligible. You wouldn't notice its effect for many years, long after the phone will have been replaced.

The default setting is only activate when plugged in and only use wifi - if you don't mind it running on battery or using your mobile data allowance, then yes; you can run it 24/7 by all means.

However, most people do mind. The majority want an app like this to be totally invisible and unobtrusive.

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December 05, 2013, 11:00:14 PM
 #12

...
We plan to harness what will soon be the largest and most efficient pool of hashing power in the world; hundreds of millions of cellphone SHA-256 chips, as described here: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/508061/custom-chips-could-be-the-shovels-in-a-bitcoin-gold-rush/
...

I'm not sure i understand.  Why are you linking to a one-year-old article?  Are there SHA256 asics in cell phones?  What is it that they do for cellphones? 
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December 05, 2013, 11:09:30 PM
 #13

...
We plan to harness what will soon be the largest and most efficient pool of hashing power in the world; hundreds of millions of cellphone SHA-256 chips, as described here: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/508061/custom-chips-could-be-the-shovels-in-a-bitcoin-gold-rush/
...

I'm not sure i understand.  Why are you linking to a one-year-old article?  Are there SHA256 asics in cell phones?  What is it that they do for cellphones? 

Not yet, but they are coming.

They will do hardware-accelerated encryption. It's become such a common requirement for smartphones that custom silicon is the logical next step.

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EBM
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December 05, 2013, 11:17:42 PM
 #14

The default setting is only activate when plugged in and only use wifi - if you don't mind it running on battery or using your mobile data allowance, then yes; you can run it 24/7 by all means.

However, most people do mind. The majority want an app like this to be totally invisible and unobtrusive.
Ugh. Mining really shouldn't be costing much on a data plan, and again, it's stupid to ever shut it off. (But also stupid to run it on battery.)
There is simply no reason to put that thing in a smartphone. Make it a USB miner.

You miss the point.

Custom SHA-256 encryption chips are coming to cellphones. Millions upon millions of them.

Yes, those chips will also make ideal USB miners, but that means buying chips and making (and selling) USB miners. We have absolutely no need to do this.

We will be harnessing the exact same chips with a free-to-download mobile app, in numbers we could not possibly achieve by selling USB sticks.

Plus, the grid is far more than just a mining pool. Please read the pitch deck, it explains.

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December 05, 2013, 11:18:59 PM
Last edit: December 05, 2013, 11:41:22 PM by crumbs
 #15

...
We plan to harness what will soon be the largest and most efficient pool of hashing power in the world; hundreds of millions of cellphone SHA-256 chips, as described here: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/508061/custom-chips-could-be-the-shovels-in-a-bitcoin-gold-rush/
...

I'm not sure i understand.  Why are you linking to a one-year-old article?  Are there SHA256 asics in cell phones?  What is it that they do for cellphones?  

Not yet, but they are coming.

They will do hardware-accelerated encryption. It's become such a common requirement for smartphones that custom silicon is the logical next step.

What, exactly, will the SHA256 ASICs do in the cell phones?  Hardware-accelerated encryption?  RU serious? What does the linked one-year-old article have to do with this?
What is happening to my forum?

*looked at your "charity" site.  LOOOOOoooOoooollllz!!

"How we raise money for great causes -- and the prize draw

Charity Engine takes enormous, expensive computing jobs and chops them into 1000s of small pieces, each simple enough for a home PC to work on as a background task. Once each PC has finished its part of the puzzle, it sends back the correct answer and earns some money for charity – and for the prize fund. (It also earns more chances to win.)

Where does the money come from? Science and industry. The grid is rented like a giant supercomputer, then all the profits shared 50-50 between the charities and the lucky prize winners.

Charity Engine typically adds less than 10 cents per day to a PC's energy costs and can generate $10-$20 for charity – and the prize draws – for each $1 of electricity consumed.

It is the most efficient way to donate to charity ever invented."

D00d, ramp up ur game!  The people who would fall for your scam are too dumb to have any money Cheesy
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December 05, 2013, 11:49:06 PM
Last edit: December 06, 2013, 12:17:45 AM by EBM
 #16

Crumbs - we are not a charity. I did say that (twice, for emphasis) in the OP: we are a regular UK company. CE is our app.

The app already exists for PCs. It's based on BOINC.

CPU power draw isn't linear with usage. We run idle CPUs up to the 'sweet spot' of 60% max usage, which only uses about 8% more power over idling.

The extra energy draw for having the CE app as a background task is therefore typically less than 10W. But for those 10W, we effectively get half of a full-fat CPU.

That's why it's so efficient, and why we've had industry recognition like this:

http://www.isgtw.org/spotlight/greenest-volunteer-grid-them-all
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/microsoft-green/archive/2012/09/28/this-week-in-sustainability-federal-agencies-use-information-technology-amp-charity-engine.aspx?Redirected=true

PS. Those nine charities are official partners, too. Oxfam's due diligence took over a year, for example: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/get-involved/how-your-company-can-partner-with-us/Charity-Engine

PPS. There is actually an error on that page (profitshare is 33-33-33, not 50-50), so thank you for pointing it out. Fixed.

PPPS. The MIT article was linked to because it describes how custom hardware SHA-256 chips are coming to mobiles. I could have just said so, but figured a source would be useful.

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December 05, 2013, 11:50:44 PM
 #17

Oh, what you are talking about is generic mobile chips with some sort of SHA256 operation.
So basically you want people to invest in a MOBILE PHONE APPLICATION?

Yeah, this isn't going to work. They won't remotely compare to what ASICs do. Bitcoin ASICs do not simply SHA256(x), they do the whole "search for SHA256(SHA256(x+y)) with and gimme y when the result has zeroes". That simply won't compare.

This is coming to Intel processors too: http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-sha-extensions so the whole smartphone thing is ridiculous again - if it's efficient just write a desktop application, and you can be pretty sure that there will be an open source miner available.

You are mistaken. Please follow the links in the OP.

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December 06, 2013, 12:21:08 AM
 #18

Crumbs - we are not a charity. I did say that (twice, for emphasis) in the OP: we are a regular UK company. CE is our app.

The app already exists for PCs. It's based on BOINC.

CPU power draw isn't linear with usage. We run idle CPUs up to the 'sweet spot' of 60% max usage, which only uses about 8% more power over idling.

The extra energy draw for having the CE app as a background task is therefore typically less than 10W. But for those 10W, we effectively get half of a full-fat CPU.

That's why it's so efficient, and why we've had industry recognition like this:

http://www.isgtw.org/spotlight/greenest-volunteer-grid-them-all
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/microsoft-green/archive/2012/09/28/this-week-in-sustainability-federal-agencies-use-information-technology-amp-charity-engine.aspx?Redirected=true

PS. Those nine charities are official partners, too. Oxfam's due diligence took over a year, for example: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/get-involved/how-your-company-can-partner-with-us/Charity-Engine

Thanks for the links.
I'll contact Josh Henretig (the blogger on msdn) to find out the source for that article.  I'll also contact OXFAM (this will be a bit more tedious, they're big, don't know how quickly they reply to emails) to find out what your connection is.
This is hilarious.
Thanks again Cheesy
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December 06, 2013, 12:34:36 AM
 #19

Crumbs - we are not a charity. I did say that (twice, for emphasis) in the OP: we are a regular UK company. CE is our app.

The app already exists for PCs. It's based on BOINC.

CPU power draw isn't linear with usage. We run idle CPUs up to the 'sweet spot' of 60% max usage, which only uses about 8% more power over idling.

The extra energy draw for having the CE app as a background task is therefore typically less than 10W. But for those 10W, we effectively get half of a full-fat CPU.

That's why it's so efficient, and why we've had industry recognition like this:

http://www.isgtw.org/spotlight/greenest-volunteer-grid-them-all
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/microsoft-green/archive/2012/09/28/this-week-in-sustainability-federal-agencies-use-information-technology-amp-charity-engine.aspx?Redirected=true

PS. Those nine charities are official partners, too. Oxfam's due diligence took over a year, for example: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/get-involved/how-your-company-can-partner-with-us/Charity-Engine

Thanks for the links.
I'll contact Josh Henretig (the blogger on msdn) to find out the source for that article.  I'll also contact OXFAM (this will be a bit more tedious, they're big, don't know how quickly they reply to emails) to find out what your connection is.
This is hilarious.
Thanks again Cheesy

You're welcome. Here's some more coverage of us:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17995888

http://www.careinternational.org.uk/how-you-can-help/change-how-you-live/charity-engine

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/ways-to-give (scroll down)

http://www.fastcoexist.com/1679116/charity-engine-the-ethical-supercomputer-that-can-win-you-10000

http://www.talkincloud.com/charity-engine-the-even-cheaper-cloud-supercomputer/

http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/23/spare-some-idle-cpu-cycles-for-charity-this-season/

http://boingboing.net/2012/04/18/grid-computing-turns-your-idle.html

...and although this was more about how Facebook's dodgy dealings nearly put us under, here's us on prime-time UK TV News: http://www.channel4.com/news/facebook-fake-likes-online-business-charity-engine

It's very real, Mr Crumbs. Has been for a while.


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December 06, 2013, 12:56:38 AM
 #20

what mobile sha256 chips are you referencing exactly? as far as i know, sure some modern smartphones have dedicated hw crypto engines, for example with iphone - aes & sha1 for key derivation, boot-chain verification and accelerated, transparent encrypt/decryption and data protection

but these are not 'asics' in the sense we are usually referring to and you cannot use them as such, you can't make any sort of app which would pass apples approval process & it's not like you could even jailbreak your phone and access the engine from userland, you'd need a low level exploit from kernel, iboot or bootrom to try and talk with it in any meaningful way,,really you'd be limited to using main ap, jus compiled arm


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