Switzerland to vote on $2,800 monthly ‘basic income’ for adults

[bryant.coleman]

Lets triple that amount to 2800:).
And add another 1 million foreigners that will dig their way through the Swiss Alps , get one time machine and in 10 years you're going to ask yourself:
"What the hell happened to Switzerland ! "

Some 500 million plus people with Schengen visas and you are saying that just 1 million will climb the Swiss Alps? I think we can be pretty sure of at least 2 million from Romania alone.

The monetary reserves will run out in 10-12 months. After that we can sell the Swiss Alps, peak by peak. Once that finishes, we can auction parts of the Lake Geneva.

[jballs]

The obvious comment is the source of payment, who will pay so much money !!
In my ideal conception, this one is very easily solved considering the roughly 480 Billion Euros accumulated by the Swiss National Bank in just a few years, with the grandiose illusion of maintaining a minimum exchange rate and bailing out the Euro and the more real reason of European solidarity and piling on debt on the Swiss economy. This is lost money in the near future anyway, so one could even consider just handing out Euros.

It is not that easy. The 480 billion Euros currently held by the Swiss bank is the amount accumulated over many decades. It won't be enough for 3 years of handouts. After that what they'll do?

Also, even if the Swiss bank offloads just one-third of its reserves, the Swiss Franc will collapse by 100% or 200%. (Right now 1 CHF = 1.1 USD, it can become 1 CHF = 0.4 or 0.5 USD).

Wrong. The reserves were mostly printed to sell against euros to break (intentionally collapse) the franc when it soared against the euro in 2010-11 as investors went to the last refuge of money printing madness. They pegged the franc to the euro and the only way they could do this was print francs and sell them til the simmentals came home.

This is the funny part. All the sheeple clamor over the mere notion of giving people money, meanwhile the banks give themselves shitloads of money "to stimulate the economy" and the sheeple don't even understand it let alone criticize it...




That is where the "reserves" come from, out of thin air, to the banks, and you can't have any because it will make you lazy. But it makes the uberwealthy bankers uberproductive, because they are your betters. Lick boots and shut up about the welfare schemes.

[jones31]

Lets triple that amount to 2800:).
And add another 1 million foreigners that will dig their way through the Swiss Alps , get one time machine and in 10 years you're going to ask yourself:
"What the hell happened to Switzerland ! "

Some 500 million plus people with Schengen visas and you are saying that just 1 million will climb the Swiss Alps? I think we can be pretty sure of at least 2 million from Romania alone.

The monetary reserves will run out in 10-12 months. After that we can sell the Swiss Alps, peak by peak. Once that finishes, we can auction parts of the Lake Geneva.

It will take just the first million to crumple the Swiss budget.
They will wake up only in a few months.
Also , just one million hitting their towns , imagine the picture with people sleeping in tents in parks.
London has seen this on a much smaller scale , and London is almost the same population as Switzerland.

[jones31]

The obvious comment is the source of payment, who will pay so much money !!
In my ideal conception, this one is very easily solved considering the roughly 480 Billion Euros accumulated by the Swiss National Bank in just a few years, with the grandiose illusion of maintaining a minimum exchange rate and bailing out the Euro and the more real reason of European solidarity and piling on debt on the Swiss economy. This is lost money in the near future anyway, so one could even consider just handing out Euros.

It is not that easy. The 480 billion Euros currently held by the Swiss bank is the amount accumulated over many decades. It won't be enough for 3 years of handouts. After that what they'll do?

Also, even if the Swiss bank offloads just one-third of its reserves, the Swiss Franc will collapse by 100% or 200%. (Right now 1 CHF = 1.1 USD, it can become 1 CHF = 0.4 or 0.5 USD).

Wrong. The reserves were mostly printed to sell against euros to break (intentionally collapse) the franc when it soared against the euro in 2010-11 as investors went to the last refuge of money printing madness. They pegged the franc to the euro and the only way they could do this was print francs and sell them til the simmentals came home.

This is the funny part. All the sheeple clamor over the mere notion of giving people money, meanwhile the banks give themselves shitloads of money "to stimulate the economy" and the sheeple don't even understand it let alone criticize it...

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2013/01/SNB%20Balance%20Sheet.jpg


That is where the "reserves" come from, out of thin air, to the banks, and you can't have any because it will make you lazy. But it makes the uberwealthy bankers uberproductive, because they are your betters. Lick boots and shut up about the welfare schemes.

They couldn't find any solution's at that time.
They basically had to sell CHF in order to give their exports time to breathe.
Because of the danger of having your exports killed by some panicking morons buying CHF they had no solution but to print more at sell them to the monkeys.
Now , the problem is , how you go back on this ?
Any thoughts on this?

[bitdragon]

They couldn't find any solution's at that time.
They basically had to sell CHF in order to give their exports time to breathe.
Because of the danger of having your exports killed by some panicking morons buying CHF they had no solution but to print more at sell them to the monkeys.
Now , the problem is , how you go back on this ?
Any thoughts on this?

First you stop the madness and stop the printing out of unlimited quantities.
Second, as the National Bank belongs in part to the cantons, this huge pile of Euros gets distributed to the Cantons to get rid of all this debt they have.
and/Or, these Euros be given to support the Exporting industries directly. (Rather than through some invisible mechanism with huge losses along the way through central bank dealings)The underlying fact being that the Euro system is not viable in the medium to long term, thus the strategy to deal with a short term high valued Swiss Franc needs to be short term as well, precisely not something that will plague the system long after the Euro is gone. Even with a higher exchange rate and after an adaptive phase with support in the meantime, certain products can no longer be produced and are swapped for more high value added processes, precisely something the Swiss have been known for in the past. In a world of continuous debasement, it would not hurt to be the example of another way.

The level of robbery is so big that pretty much anything else would have been better. Like the WTO 'saving' countries, it is the worst case scenario that is unfolding. So saying they had no solution but to print is extreme shortsightedness. And for all the crappy useless things we get to vote on all year round, we actually get a chance to vote on helping and supporting human beings directly for a measely 2'800 francs per month.

"That is where the "reserves" come from, out of thin air, to the banks, and you can't have any because it will make you lazy. But it makes the uberwealthy bankers uberproductive, because they are your betters. Lick boots and shut up about the welfare schemes."

[bryant.coleman]

First you stop the madness and stop the printing out of unlimited quantities.
Second, as the National Bank belongs in part to the cantons, this huge pile of Euros gets distributed to the Cantons to get rid of all this debt they have.

Sadly no one will support you. 

I just watched Atlas Shrugged for the 5th time. This thread and its main contributors are resembling the film and its characters ever more closely. 

[dancupid]

See this. Absolute madness. If someone gets $2,800 pm for free without doing any work, then how many adults will actually work for a living? In effect this is punishing hard working people, while rewarding the welfare kings and queens.

Hard working people should be punished for wasting their lives doing pointless meaningless work and wasting their one chance of existence.
People who manage to escape such as system should be rewarded for making the intellectual leap and realizing that all work is pointless.

Work is wasted life. We're not donkeys.

[jones31]

See this. Absolute madness. If someone gets $2,800 pm for free without doing any work, then how many adults will actually work for a living? In effect this is punishing hard working people, while rewarding the welfare kings and queens.

Hard working people should be punished for wasting their lives doing pointless meaningless work and wasting their one chance of existence.
People who manage to escape such as system should be rewarded for making the intellectual leap and realizing that all work is pointless.

Work is wasted life. We're not donkeys.

Totally agree with this.
Let's all stop working cause this defies evolution , we're not animals.
I wonder how the world will look after one year with nobody working , this is , if we still have a world and a planet left , and somebody to tell the story.

[u9y42]

See this. Absolute madness. If someone gets $2,800 pm for free without doing any work, then how many adults will actually work for a living? In effect this is punishing hard working people, while rewarding the welfare kings and queens.

Hard working people should be punished for wasting their lives doing pointless meaningless work and wasting their one chance of existence.
People who manage to escape such as system should be rewarded for making the intellectual leap and realizing that all work is pointless.

Work is wasted life. We're not donkeys.

Totally agree with this.
Let's all stop working cause this defies evolution , we're not animals.
I wonder how the world will look after one year with nobody working , this is , if we still have a world and a planet left , and somebody to tell the story.

He's obviously stretching it too far, but let me put this another way: if you were to receive those $2800, would you be happy just sitting in your couch, doing nothing else for the rest of your life?

[bryant.coleman]

Totally agree with this.
Let's all stop working cause this defies evolution , we're not animals.
I wonder how the world will look after one year with nobody working , this is , if we still have a world and a planet left , and somebody to tell the story.

Hahaha... at least it will be good for our planet. 

He's obviously stretching it too far, but let me put this another way: if you were to receive those $2800, would you be happy just sitting in your couch, doing nothing else for the rest of your life?

I am sure that if everyone if being given $2.8K for free, 99.99% of them will not work even for one second.

[jones31]

See this. Absolute madness. If someone gets $2,800 pm for free without doing any work, then how many adults will actually work for a living? In effect this is punishing hard working people, while rewarding the welfare kings and queens.

Hard working people should be punished for wasting their lives doing pointless meaningless work and wasting their one chance of existence.
People who manage to escape such as system should be rewarded for making the intellectual leap and realizing that all work is pointless.

Work is wasted life. We're not donkeys.

Totally agree with this.
Let's all stop working cause this defies evolution , we're not animals.
I wonder how the world will look after one year with nobody working , this is , if we still have a world and a planet left , and somebody to tell the story.

He's obviously stretching it too far, but let me put this another way: if you were to receive those $2800, would you be happy just sitting in your couch, doing nothing else for the rest of your life?

I'm better paid than any of my friends , and I don't make more than 2500$.
And no , I wouldn't sit all day on my couch , I wouldn't spend some time in my bed  , in the chair at the desk where I have my computer , and some on the toilet seat.

[jballs]

Strange you all presume the only reason people work is because they have to.

If that were true nobody would be running the world anyway. You make 10 million a year you know what you do? You get up early every morning and go to work.

Seems the confusion is believing people should either work somewhere they hate or starve to death.

Really this whole argument is about dishwashers and status. You want someone to wash your dishes and not get paid shit for it. So you need a starving class. If they all make 2,800 a month they won't wash the dishes for 8 bucks an hour.

I think it is too high but aside from that it's the right way to go. People will still work, they just won't have to, make a better world for sure. And don't tell me about the budget/allocation whatever all the money is fake anyway.

Bitcoin excepted.

[jones31]

Strange you all presume the only reason people work is because they have to.

If that were true nobody would be running the world anyway. You make 10 million a year you know what you do? You get up early every morning and go to work.

Seems the confusion is believing people should either work somewhere they hate or starve to death.

Really this whole argument is about dishwashers and status. You want someone to wash your dishes and not get paid shit for it. So you need a starving class. If they all make 2,800 a month they won't wash the dishes for 8 bucks an hour.

I think it is too high but aside from that it's the right way to go. People will still work, they just won't have to, make a better world for sure. And don't tell me about the budget/allocation whatever all the money is fake anyway.

Bitcoin excepted.

You make 10 million a year and you got to work because unless you go , you're gonna end up losing them.
If you would be be making 10 millions but the state is taking 9.8 to give it to the idiot next door , why should you even bother?

[bathwater]

HONEY BOO BOO

money isnt shit. sorry about the language. but money isnt shit. money is to land as gas is to a car. people wont live well, people wont be able to live free-er. what can you do with gas and no car.. NOTHING.

think about at. immediately after the population has extra money to spend, they will all approach a higher cost of living. after all why would money be needed if people were living their ideal living situation..? SO, after people start living in their higher cost of living, (RENT, PAYMENTS, CONSUMER GOODS) the demand for all these things will up, and so will the price. ARGUMENT OVER.

every post on this thread discussing:  would you continue working? , 2.8k to stop working...,  is it fair?, how much is too much? ......... ALL OF IT IS BESIDES THE POINT

granting people a monthly income is no different than raising the minimum wage. supply and demand / and inflation will quickly inhibit their purchasing power.

if some sort of safety net is the ideal situation to have establish, then government back resources is that answer. keeping our governments accountable for a basic well being & the wealth of people is where its at.

i prefer the idea about the 1:12 pay ratio an employer can pay themselves.  wages need to be tided in with profits & losses and with relation of percentages. this could still be taken advantage of by a bureaucratic system, with fines and fees, but the issues within the government and within the workplace have always been two separate issues.

[bryant.coleman]

You make 10 million a year and you got to work because unless you go , you're gonna end up losing them.
If you would be be making 10 millions but the state is taking 9.8 to give it to the idiot next door , why should you even bother?

Rather than stop working, I'd pack my bags and move to some saner country. Just like what Gerard Depardieu did after Hollande raised taxes to 75%. 

[jones31]

Gerard Depardieu was a great actor , but how he started praising Russian , I will not look at him as a man with the same eyes.
Like Snowden , fighting for the freedom of speech and ending up hugging Putin.

[u9y42]

Gerard Depardieu was a great actor , but how he started praising Russian , I will not look at him as a man with the same eyes.
Like Snowden , fighting for the freedom of speech and ending up hugging Putin.

I don't know about Depardieu, but if Snowden's only options are either staying in Russia or being sent to the US to be jailed, held incommunicado, possibly tortured, and having to wait for months before he even has a chance of appearing before a trial like Manning, I'd say Russia looks good by comparison.

[jones31]

Gerard Depardieu was a great actor , but how he started praising Russian , I will not look at him as a man with the same eyes.
Like Snowden , fighting for the freedom of speech and ending up hugging Putin.

I don't know about Depardieu, but if Snowden's only options are either staying in Russia or being sent to the US to be jailed, held incommunicado, possibly tortured, and having to wait for months before he even has a chance of appearing before a trial like Manning, I'd say Russia looks good by comparison.

Wait till he tries to get out of Russia. This is going to be so funny , when he understands where he is.
They won't let him go that easily. And they will turn to all that your have said above to get all the info from him.

[u9y42]

Wait till he tries to get out of Russia. This is going to be so funny , when he understands where he is.
They won't let him go that easily. And they will turn to all that your have said above to get all the info from him.

Well yes, Russia isn't exactly a great example of freedom and democracy, to say the least, but what does it say about the West that his best option was to stay there?

[bryant.coleman]

Gerard Depardieu was a great actor , but how he started praising Russian , I will not look at him as a man with the same eyes.
Like Snowden , fighting for the freedom of speech and ending up hugging Putin.

If I was in Gerard Depardieu's place, I'd do the same.

I will never ever pay 75% tax. Even if that means losing some of my assets, I'd migrate to some other country having saner tax rules. And why you want to single out Depardieu? Hundreds of French VHNWIs have migrated to other European nations such as Monaco and Germany. No need to single out Depardieu because he chose the East. 

And regarding Snowden, I support whatever he has done. The amount of courage shown by him was immense. And Putin was the only ruler with balls to grant him refugee status.