Recovery actions for stolen Bitcoin

[itsunderstood]

QUESTION FOR THE GROUP

If a paypal account, is used with 100% feedback on localbitcoins.com, then suddenly the paypal account owner claims "hacked" and reverses paypal monies for local BTC, what negligence is their on the part of the silly paypal account person who allows their account to be puppeted for two months??

The whole concept of identity, is the first thing that has been demolished.

...and that is what you supposed smart people who know law, need to figure out.  How do we have recourse against theft, yet protect our Constitutional rights to privacy.  Lawyers, do not swear an oath to the Constitution, so they are sideline players,from my perspective.

I think its hilarious when BTC is treated like toxic invisible waste by lawyers, haha, how long until lawyers accept BTC, and most important question will be: How will lawyers be taxed when they do accept BTC for payment?

Taxation is at the root of lawyering, paypal, and all money.  I guess we can start there.  BUT ALSO, the "tech stupid", who allow their paypal account to be zombified and puppeted for months, should also be made to suffer, for their ID is then wielded with ill intent, and they claim no connection to the man-in-the-middle.  Like, if my paypal account was hacked, I'd be on the phone to paypal that day, so how do these zombie accounts get so much time to steal,before they are identified??

[darkmule]

...and that is what you supposed smart people who know law, need to figure out.  How do we have recourse against theft, yet protect our Constitutional rights to privacy.  Lawyers, do not swear an oath to the Constitution, so they are sideline players,from my perspective.

Utter bullshit.

41:1-1. Oath of allegiance; form
Every person who is or shall be required by law to give assurance of fidelity and attachment to the Government of this State shall take the following oath of allegiance:

"I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey, and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the Governments established in the United States and in this State, under the authority of the people So help me God."

Amended by L.1949, c. 21, p. 67, s. 1, eff. April 12, 1949; L.1971, c. 217, s. 6.

Almost all states have an oath in a similar form.

[bryant.coleman]

QUESTION FOR THE GROUP

If a paypal account, is used with 100% feedback on localbitcoins.com, then suddenly the paypal account owner claims "hacked" and reverses paypal monies for local BTC, what negligence is their on the part of the silly paypal account person who allows their account to be puppeted for two months??

Absolute BS. How can anyone claim this? Was this guy sleeping for 2 months? Can you give me the details of his Localbitcoins.com account?

[rjcesq]

This method is negated by any wallet stealer since both the thief and victim would have the private key. Given that info, how do you prove that you were ever the lawful owner of the BTC at that time? Only thing I can think of is maybe a receipt of some kind (exchange logs?) and that doesn't take into account the fact that the BTC could have been traded willingly off network by sending the private key to the buyer (or thief [I can know as a 3rd party{you can't either}]).

As I mentioned in my blog which started this discussion, proving original ownership of the privacy key will be difficult and certainly will be subject to a finding of fact in any litigation.

[User705]

This method is negated by any wallet stealer since both the thief and victim would have the private key. Given that info, how do you prove that you were ever the lawful owner of the BTC at that time? Only thing I can think of is maybe a receipt of some kind (exchange logs?) and that doesn't take into account the fact that the BTC could have been traded willingly off network by sending the private key to the buyer (or thief [I can know as a 3rd party{you can't either}]).

As I mentioned in my blog which started this discussion, proving original ownership of the privacy key will be difficult and certainly will be subject to a finding of fact in any litigation.

It's not just difficult it's likely impossible.  Please describe a scenario in which such proof is even civil court sufficient which is "by the preponderance of evidence".  You can probably forget the criminal aspect of "beyond any reasonable doubt" but if you are up to it you can describe that as well.

[darkmule]

This method is negated by any wallet stealer since both the thief and victim would have the private key. Given that info, how do you prove that you were ever the lawful owner of the BTC at that time? Only thing I can think of is maybe a receipt of some kind (exchange logs?) and that doesn't take into account the fact that the BTC could have been traded willingly off network by sending the private key to the buyer (or thief [I can know as a 3rd party{you can't either}]).

As I mentioned in my blog which started this discussion, proving original ownership of the privacy key will be difficult and certainly will be subject to a finding of fact in any litigation.

It's not just difficult it's likely impossible.  Please describe a scenario in which such proof is even civil court sufficient which is "by the preponderance of evidence".  You can probably forget the criminal aspect of "beyond any reasonable doubt" but if you are up to it you can describe that as well.

Preponderance is basically a 51% deal.  If it's more likely than not that you own the private key, you prevail on that standard.  So if you can actually produce the key, that would prove that you actually own it to any reasonable person, especially if you also, as you would, swear under oath that you are the rightful owner of that key.

Civil court cases quite often turn into "swearing contests" just like this, with one person saying one thing and the other side saying another, and the fact-finder deciding which of them is telling the truth.

But actually possessing the private key is a lot stronger than just saying you are the rightful owner of it.  There's no "beyond any reasonable doubt" in a civil case, which a recovery action would usually be.  The burden is preponderance of evidence, and actually producing the private key while the other side is incapable of doing so (since it doesn't own it) would shift the burden to the other side to prove you were not the rightful owner.

[User705]

Yes when it's uncontested it's easy but what happens when more then one person shows up with the private key.

[samsam]

Police have arrested bitcoin hackers, whether they can recover the stolen bitcoin will depend on a lot of factors, like whether they can recover the wallets with the stolen bitcoin and unencrypt them.

http://www.coindesk.com/fbi-proves-seizing-bitcoins-isnt-owning/

Regardless, bitcoin hackers/scammers are getting arrested or taken to court:

http://www.coindesk.com/german-police-detain-bitcoin-hackers/

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-scam-china-authorities/

http://www.coindesk.com/company-pay-1m-secretly-using-customer-computers-bitcoin-mining/

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-incubator-coinlab-2-4m-in-bitcoins/

Also, people can track stolen bitcoins and report the details to the authorities:

http://www.coindesk.com/sheep-marketplace-track-stolen-bitcoins/

[darkmule]

Yes when it's uncontested it's easy but what happens when more then one person shows up with the private key.

Well, then you have an actual dispute about a material fact, so you can't, for example, successfully file a motion for summary judgment and avoid trial.

[itsunderstood]

...and that is what you supposed smart people who know law, need to figure out.  How do we have recourse against theft, yet protect our Constitutional rights to privacy.  Lawyers, do not swear an oath to the Constitution, so they are sideline players,from my perspective.

Utter bullshit.

41:1-1. Oath of allegiance; form
Every person who is or shall be required by law to give assurance of fidelity and attachment to the Government of this State shall take the following oath of allegiance:

"I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey, and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the Governments established in the United States and in this State, under the authority of the people So help me God."

Amended by L.1949, c. 21, p. 67, s. 1, eff. April 12, 1949; L.1971, c. 217, s. 6.

Almost all states have an oath in a similar form.

Are you telling me all lawyers make this oath above all oaths?

Followup question:  Do you know any lawyers that accept cryptocoin?

[itsunderstood]

QUESTION FOR THE GROUP

If a paypal account, is used with 100% feedback on localbitcoins.com, then suddenly the paypal account owner claims "hacked" and reverses paypal monies for local BTC, what negligence is their on the part of the silly paypal account person who allows their account to be puppeted for two months??

Absolute BS. How can anyone claim this? Was this guy sleeping for 2 months? Can you give me the details of his Localbitcoins.com account?

Localbitcoins user name is "spacecowboy", who is now alleged (by charges reversed) to have hacked the paypal account of [name removed], a doctor in the UK?

 ...The localbitcoins user 'spacecowboy' has been online on localbtc but the admins are 100% non responsive to tickets, so I doubt they froze the wallet, me and three other users got stiffed so it's like he was setting up the account for 2 months, only to duck out at the end?

localbitcoins.com is a real den of thieves if its this bad.

I mean, it is as if a paypal account is a weapon, if you have a stupid password, you should be liable when your account gets f-in hacked.  Losing your paypal account, and not notifying paypal right away??  How does a person get away with being so careless??  But there really is no rally point for which to unite against fucking thieves.

[CoinCidental]

some people dot spend all day checking their paypal account to see if its been hacked
maybe they dont even use the email  address anymore they openeed it with  so it could easily
take a month or two for transactions to be noticed on a credit card statement

plenty of sites on tor are selling paypal accounts ,some with several thousand $ in them
you cant blame a non technical old  person for being hacked by some whizz kid on the other side
of the world

[darkmule]

Are you telling me all lawyers make this oath above all oaths?

Followup question:  Do you know any lawyers that accept cryptocoin?

I can only speak for myself.  Considering all elected officials take a similar oath, and their conduct doesn't always look to me like it's upholding the Constitution, I have to conclude some people take oaths in vain.  As for me, though, if I say "I swear" something, I take it seriously.

As for lawyers who take cryptocoin, I believe MSantori, on this site, might.  There's nothing illegal whatsoever about taking payment in any form, so long as it isn't contraband of some kind.  I've known lawyers to take payment in goods, services, dairy products, construction work, pretty much any form of barter.

(I can also think of a couple lawyers who took payment in less acceptable forms, such as drugs or illegal services such as procuring the absence of witnesses in other cases.)

[callem]

Then we can set up this service in some country where theft is illegal and thieves can be caught using whatever means. May be Saudi Arabia?

Hacking in to someone's computer is punishable everywhere. Correct me if I am wrong.  

A vigilante posse based in Saudi Arabia is probably about the last thing bitcoin needs.
Sounds more like a litecoin thing.  

Wrong? Oh, where to begin...

[rjcesq]

Followup question:  Do you know any lawyers that accept cryptocoin?

I accept bitcoin for legal services. I haven't had any clients pay that way but I would accept it (and have it on my business card).

[bryant.coleman]

I accept bitcoin for legal services. I haven't had any clients pay that way but I would accept it (and have it on my business card).

Hmm.... I have checked your website. Bitcoin is not mentioned anywhere. But still, it is great that you are accepting Bitcoins.

[TERA]

Recovery of stolen Bitcoin:

Step 1: Pick up bible.

Step 2: ?

[bryant.coleman]

Recovery of stolen Bitcoin:

Step 1: Pick up bible.

Step 2: ?

Yes. I agree. It is next to impossible. Even if you track its movement, you can't do much if the thief uses a mixer.

[darkmule]

Recovery of stolen Bitcoin:

Step 1: Pick up bible.

Step 2: ?

Yes. I agree. It is next to impossible. Even if you track its movement, you can't do much if the thief uses a mixer.

Depends.  If they have other assets, it may still not be possible to recover the Bitcoin itself, but legal judgments are almost always going to be denominated in USD.  The problem is your typical scammer is often a judgment-proof degenerate with no assets whatsoever, at least none you can actually seize.  There is also the additional problem that Bitcoin generally appreciates in value, but proving this may be beyond the ken of the average juror, that is, it will require expert witnesses to prove.  So the amount of BTC in controversy as well as the solvency of the debtor/thief will determine whether it is worth bothering.

And if the idea suggested itself, a court will generally not look with approval upon an attempt to sit on your rights while waiting for the price of BTC to go up and only suing then.  That defense will immediately suggest itself if the amount in controversy is sufficient to encourage the defendant to seek competent counsel, i.e. that you waited until the price went up to the point to make it worth it to sue, so you should only be entitled, as a matter of equity and/or just basic fairness, to the value at the time of the breach of contract and/or tort.

[qaim]

Two times BTC from my Block Chain account has been transferred even with out authorization
and it was  security set up too.

Payee id of BTC is also available.
How I can recover my BTC stolen in this way