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Author Topic: If bitcoin took off, could it fund new investments?  (Read 2099 times)
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February 18, 2011, 04:57:15 PM
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Could bitcoin be a new source of wealth that could stimulate economic recovery and development? A kind of 'grass-roots' injection, like what the governments should have done but didn't (a ground up bail-out, instead of the banker-buddy top-down kind opted for instead).

Bitcoin won't be institutionalized by the mainstream for a while, so in the meantime (if succesasful) it could be a grass-roots fountain of new funds to housholds, to small firms..

Maybe there could be bitcoin credit unions or something, they get together and buy a bunch of bitcoins, let them appreciate (a speculation of course) and then sell them and lend the profits out at interest in fiat money, and then reinvest the profits from that back into buying more bitcoin. By something like this or other methods, could a bitcoin boom bounce economies out of the slump?

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February 18, 2011, 05:02:50 PM
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Could bitcoin be a new source of wealth that could stimulate economic recovery and development? A kind of 'grass-roots' injection, like what the governments should have done but didn't (ground up bail-out, not top-down)

Bitcoin won't be institutionalized by the mainstream for a while, so in the meantime (if succesasful) it could be a grass-roots fountain of new funds to housholds, to small firms..

Maybe there could be bitcoin credit unions or something, they get together and buy a bunch of bitcoins, let them appreciate (a speculation of course) and then sell them and lend the profits out at interest in fiat money, and then reinvest the profits from that back into buying more bitcoin. By something like this or other methods, could a bitcoin boom bounce economies out of the slump?
Maybe, but I think some of the success of the bitcoin will come at the expense of the fiat currency. So, eventually, I think the buying power of bitcoins will increase while that of fiat currencies decrease, negating some of the "bounce" associated with the bitcoin.

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February 18, 2011, 05:27:15 PM
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It could enable microinvestments that weren't possible before because of excessive red tape.

Especially cross-border investments.

Think crowdcube.co.uk, except anonymous and global, based on an reputation system instead of contract enforcement.  Without arbitrary and racist restrictions such as "you may not invest because you were born in the wrong place".

That would be a powerful tool and a boost for the global economy.  For instance, I think that China would grow even faster if Bitcoin could be used to circumvent the Chinese government's draconian restrictions on capital inflow.

Today, if you want to invest in a Chinese business, a) you need to be a large investor and b) you need to make concessions to the Chinese government.  I am sure that this puts off a huge number of potential investors.  An idea like crowdcube could never penetrate to the aspiring Mark Zuckerbergs in the Chinese market, but Bitcoin could change that.

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February 18, 2011, 05:46:14 PM
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>aspiring Mark Zuckerbergs
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February 18, 2011, 05:49:18 PM
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Since bitcoin is aspiring to be a new currency that is frequently used by people, it will automatically become something that will fund new investments. If people want BTC, they will accept it for doing something, building something, or starting something. If it took off, it could be used for anything that paper/metal money is used for now.

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February 18, 2011, 06:01:06 PM
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Since bitcoin is aspiring to be a new currency that is frequently used by people, it will automatically become something that will fund new investments. If people want BTC, they will accept it for doing something, building something, or starting something. If it took off, it could be used for anything that paper/metal money is used for now.

That's not really what I mean. People use dollars and euros now, but there's no money, banks aren't lending, businesses aren't making enough to fund expansion, stockmarket is (i am told) on the slide, governments have all gone austerity-crazy because bankers ubber alles etc. Could a bitcoin boom change that and spur economic activity grass-roots up.

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February 18, 2011, 06:32:17 PM
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SumChancer, I think that you are absolutely correct.  Bitcoin or other, similar peer-to-peer cryptocurrencies will create an economic revolution.  Freed from interference by governments, banks, large corporations, labor unions and other special interest groups, the market will be able to bloom like never before.  I've been an entrepreneur my entire life and have had to deal with bullshit from these groups in addition to trying to keep cash flowing in and customers happy.  I will never start a business the conventional way again.  For any business ventures I undertake in the future, I will be a stateless actor on the global stage using anonymous reputation systems.  Anyone who asks for government ID numbers before doing business with me will have to look for another patsy.  The fascists have had their century.  This one belongs to us.

"A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history." --Gandhi
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February 18, 2011, 06:58:05 PM
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FWIW, bitcoin is already being used to fund new investments...


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February 18, 2011, 07:01:10 PM
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Visa has a market cap of 63 Billion.
EBay/Paypal has a market cap of 44 Billion.
Citigroup has a market cap of 142 Billion.

ETC...

So these industries could fall and all of their wealth would be redistributed.  As a whole we would be wealthier.

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February 18, 2011, 07:12:11 PM
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Yep, it could easily spur a wave of economic activity. The current fiat systems are riddled with debt, to the point that they are barely creating enough to pay the interest on the outstanding, let alone fund any new growth.

Bitcoin being a credit-based money not a debt-money will have growth associated with it unencumbered by any current or any on-going debts that aren't liquidated properly.

The quad-drillion in derivatives carried by the megabanks (much of it off the books now and not marked-to-market) creates unserviceable obligations on society. The world just doesn't create enough wealth to back thos kind of numbers. The banksters collect their bonuses, creaming it off the top of the debt pyramid, supported by enforced taxation on the citizenry, and the wealth generators and hard workers in society generally get poorer.

At some point, the monkeys throw the free peanuts back out of the cages, even if that is all they have to eat. Bitcoins they will hang onto.


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February 19, 2011, 12:40:08 AM
 #11

There are already businesses being formed its just that you dont see them. Or maybe they are right in front of your eyes and you just dont realise it....


Bitcoin companies can be run transparently for the shareholders but anonymously to the rest of the world. Its a brave new world really.
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February 19, 2011, 06:27:49 AM
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Since bitcoin is aspiring to be a new currency that is frequently used by people, it will automatically become something that will fund new investments. If people want BTC, they will accept it for doing something, building something, or starting something. If it took off, it could be used for anything that paper/metal money is used for now.

That's not really what I mean. People use dollars and euros now, but there's no money, banks aren't lending, businesses aren't making enough to fund expansion, stockmarket is (i am told) on the slide, governments have all gone austerity-crazy because bankers ubber alles etc. Could a bitcoin boom change that and spur economic activity grass-roots up.

Sure, if bitcoin is accepted it would change the world, spur unprecedented economic growth, etc.  But it is reasonable to say that acceptance will take time.  Ten years, twenty, who knows?
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February 19, 2011, 06:39:52 AM
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Since bitcoin is aspiring to be a new currency that is frequently used by people, it will automatically become something that will fund new investments. If people want BTC, they will accept it for doing something, building something, or starting something. If it took off, it could be used for anything that paper/metal money is used for now.

That's not really what I mean. People use dollars and euros now, but there's no money, banks aren't lending, businesses aren't making enough to fund expansion, stockmarket is (i am told) on the slide, governments have all gone austerity-crazy because bankers ubber alles etc. Could a bitcoin boom change that and spur economic activity grass-roots up.

Sure, if bitcoin is accepted it would change the world, spur unprecedented economic growth, etc.  But it is reasonable to say that acceptance will take time.  Ten years, twenty, who knows?

preferably something less than 45 years.... would be nice to retire from some lucky savings... 

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February 19, 2011, 06:44:08 AM
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Sure, if bitcoin is accepted it would change the world, spur unprecedented economic growth, etc.  But it is reasonable to say that acceptance will take time.  Ten years, twenty, who knows?

I believe it takes 4 or 5 years for wikipedia to mature, and less than 10 years that people start shutting up about wikipedia and accept it as part of daily life.

Bitcoin will grows the same way, as it benefit from network effects.

Personally, I estimated a 49 chance of death and 51 chance of extremely wild success in a 5 years period.

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February 19, 2011, 07:02:42 AM
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I believe it takes 4 or 5 years for wikipedia to mature, and less than 10 years that people start shutting up about wikipedia and accept it as part of daily life.

Bitcoin will grows the same way, as it benefit from network effects.

I like this comparaison a lot.
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February 19, 2011, 12:41:19 PM
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Sure, if bitcoin is accepted it would change the world, spur unprecedented economic growth, etc.  But it is reasonable to say that acceptance will take time.  Ten years, twenty, who knows?

I believe it takes 4 or 5 years for wikipedia to mature, and less than 10 years that people start shutting up about wikipedia and accept it as part of daily life.

Bitcoin will grows the same way, as it benefit from network effects.

Personally, I estimated a 49 chance of death and 51 chance of extremely wild success in a 5 years period.

I agree, although the comparison I usually use is facebook.

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February 19, 2011, 05:34:22 PM
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Visa has a market cap of 63 Billion.
EBay/Paypal has a market cap of 44 Billion.
Citigroup has a market cap of 142 Billion.

ETC...

So these industries could fall and all of their wealth would be redistributed.  As a whole we would be wealthier.

What you guys don't understand is that bitcoin is NOT a replacement to banks, payment systems, etc.
Bitcoin is the equivalent of cash in the mail, with extra security features.
Think about it: you send a payment, it gets received (confirmed) some time later. (10, 20, 30 mins? still, it's delayed)
The mailmen are the other users generating blocks. They just can't steal.
If you send money to the wrong address, it gets lost. Like regular mail.
Once you send it, you can't get it back, unless you destroy the mailbox.

Would you base the world's economy on mail in the cash?
Personally, I would NOT...
This is the reason for stuff like Visa, Paypal, and others will surely survive.

Maybe one day they will adopt BTC as a currency, but no way they are going bankrupt just because of bitcoins!

Bitcoin to prepaid phone credit - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3620.0
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February 19, 2011, 05:43:52 PM
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Visa has a market cap of 63 Billion.
EBay/Paypal has a market cap of 44 Billion.
Citigroup has a market cap of 142 Billion.

ETC...

So these industries could fall and all of their wealth would be redistributed.  As a whole we would be wealthier.

What you guys don't understand is that bitcoin is NOT a replacement to banks, payment systems, etc.
Bitcoin is the equivalent of cash in the mail, with extra security features.

Not true, or at least not the whole truth.

Bitcoin is simultaneously like:

1. Cash in the mail
2. Bullion mined from the ground
3. Physical commodity
4. E-currency
5. Paypal

Bitcoin is many things, limiting it only to money transfer is not very accurate IMHO.
Clearly this is invention of a genius, to say the true.

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February 20, 2011, 11:26:03 AM
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Not true, or at least not the whole truth.

Bitcoin is simultaneously like:

1. Cash in the mail
2. Bullion mined from the ground
3. Physical commodity
4. E-currency
5. Paypal

Bitcoin is many things, limiting it only to money transfer is not very accurate IMHO.
Clearly this is invention of a genius, to say the true.

I can agree with 1, 2, 4, maybe even with 4.
But no way I can compare BTC to Paypal! The latter is a service involving digital money: eg, you are offered a buyer's protection program, safer (?) use of your cc online, etc... Paypal is more taylored to fit Ebay's needs, and is not really just about moving money.

Bitcoin to prepaid phone credit - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3620.0
(Italy preferred, but if you are from the rest of the world, PM me and we might find a deal!)
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February 20, 2011, 02:18:12 PM
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Not true, or at least not the whole truth.

Bitcoin is simultaneously like:

1. Cash in the mail
2. Bullion mined from the ground
3. Physical commodity
4. E-currency
5. Paypal

Bitcoin is many things, limiting it only to money transfer is not very accurate IMHO.
Clearly this is invention of a genius, to say the true.

I can agree with 1, 2, 4, maybe even with 4.
But no way I can compare BTC to Paypal! The latter is a service involving digital money: eg, you are offered a buyer's protection program, safer (?) use of your cc online, etc... Paypal is more taylored to fit Ebay's needs, and is not really just about moving money.

Correct,  however i meant that it is similiar in the way that you can easily send money worldwide in matter of seconds.
Paypal is a soft currency (drawbackable), so that is what differs it from hard currencies such as Bitcoin.

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