If confirmation takes 10 minutes, how will I buy coffee at Starbucks?

[501]

I think everything that needs to be said has already been said about the OP's question.  I just wanted to comment concerning Starbucks and tax.

We shouldn't be celebrating crony capitalism.  Regulations and taxes that are selectively enforced against smaller competitors to the mega-corps are not better than regulations and taxes that apply to everyone.

Looking at it from their point of view, when the government slaps them with a 60% tax rate can you really blame them for trying to worm their way out of it? Taxes are at the point where they're just ridiculous, and everyone tries to cheat on them as a result.

[burnum]

For small purchases, you don't really have to wait for a confirmation.  You just need to make sure the transaction appears on the network.  If there are any losses, they can be written off as a cost of doing business or treated as theft.  The chances of double-spending for a cup of coffee are less than the chance of someone walking out on a restaurant bill.

This is correct, and who knows if this isn't workable, maybe bitcoins will not be for buying coffee.

watching alt coins and the work developers are putting into faster confirmations, it truly makes sense that bitcoin was developed as more of a security or commodity than a currency, I wont promote any specific coin on this thread, but  look at the possibility's out there, satoshi (or whoever) could not have built this coin without pondering where it actually would end up, everything I see tells me that it is just the foundation of a crypto financial system, he knew others would follow and bring innovation with them, with this in mind, if your trying to replace fiat and your on your way into a ballpark, do you want to stop and wait for a transaction to be confirmed before the guy scalping tickets releases them to you?-no- many things we buy in -  . . . - are on the go, system flaws and hackers tell me that I need a debit like system if I am going to use crypto currency, Starbucks may not mind protecting itself against a double spend multi wallet criminal, but the guy with 10 minutes in his busy life on craigslist is not really going to want to adopt the policy of the corporations of the world just cause their system works for them, find the altcoin that is most secure, fast, and is close to the fiat or currency we have used for century's and lets move on with this decentralized currency idea that has somehow attached itself to BTC.

P.S. Buy more pizza with BTC

[Peter R]

For small purchases, you don't really have to wait for a confirmation.  You just need to make sure the transaction appears on the network.  If there are any losses, they can be written off as a cost of doing business or treated as theft.  The chances of double-spending for a cup of coffee are less than the chance of someone walking out on a restaurant bill.

This is correct, and who knows if this isn't workable, maybe bitcoins will not be for buying coffee.

watching alt coins and the work developers are putting into faster confirmations, it truly makes sense that bitcoin was developed as more of a security or commodity than a currency, I wont promote any specific coin on this thread, but  look at the possibility's out there, satoshi (or whoever) could not have built this coin without pondering where it actually would end up, everything I see tells me that it is just the foundation of a crypto financial system, he knew others would follow and bring innovation with them, with this in mind, if your trying to replace fiat and your on your way into a ballpark, do you want to stop and wait for a transaction to be confirmed before the guy scalping tickets releases them to you?-no- many things we buy in -  . . . - are on the go, system flaws and hackers tell me that I need a debit like system if I am going to use crypto currency, Starbucks may not mind protecting itself against a double spend multi wallet criminal, but the guy with 10 minutes in his busy life on craigslist is not really going to want to adopt the policy of the corporations of the world just cause their system works for them, find the altcoin that is most secure, fast, and is close to the fiat or currency we have used for century's and lets move on with this decentralized currency idea that has somehow attached itself to BTC.

P.S. Buy more pizza with BTC

Did you read the other posts in this thread or look more deeply into the double spend issue before posting that?

Double spends: difficult to attempt, easy to spot.
 

[burnum]

For small purchases, you don't really have to wait for a confirmation.  You just need to make sure the transaction appears on the network.  If there are any losses, they can be written off as a cost of doing business or treated as theft.  The chances of double-spending for a cup of coffee are less than the chance of someone walking out on a restaurant bill.

This is correct, and who knows if this isn't workable, maybe bitcoins will not be for buying coffee.

watching alt coins and the work developers are putting into faster confirmations, it truly makes sense that bitcoin was developed as more of a security or commodity than a currency, I wont promote any specific coin on this thread, but  look at the possibility's out there, satoshi (or whoever) could not have built this coin without pondering where it actually would end up, everything I see tells me that it is just the foundation of a crypto financial system, he knew others would follow and bring innovation with them, with this in mind, if your trying to replace fiat and your on your way into a ballpark, do you want to stop and wait for a transaction to be confirmed before the guy scalping tickets releases them to you?-no- many things we buy in -  . . . - are on the go, system flaws and hackers tell me that I need a debit like system if I am going to use crypto currency, Starbucks may not mind protecting itself against a double spend multi wallet criminal, but the guy with 10 minutes in his busy life on craigslist is not really going to want to adopt the policy of the corporations of the world just cause their system works for them, find the altcoin that is most secure, fast, and is close to the fiat or currency we have used for century's and lets move on with this decentralized currency idea that has somehow attached itself to BTC.

P.S. Buy more pizza with BTC

Did you read the other posts in this thread or look more deeply into the double spend issue before posting that?

Double spends: difficult to attempt, easy to spot.
 

Yes i read the thread, I usually pick the shorter ones to post in, I have read arguments about double spending and it seems to be very difficult, the common thief has not yet been sold the wallets to double spend with, given time they will come, I have read alot of arguments and anything I say should only be taken as my opinion as a "what if" based on my perception.

Do you ever make transactions that you expect to take 30 seconds?

Ever buy anything in such a rush that you were unable to wait for your change?

how easy is it to spot a double spend? Is it possible to have a program on your cell phone that looks like a legit wallet but can quickly produce an address that is similar to one that is attached to a QR code? such a program could remove the double spend and would be outright theft, i would much rather a quick confirmation if I am selling something on a busy street

[burnum]

Which gets me thinking that maybe Starbucks ought to have some kind of protection if a transaction is going to take a long time (10 minutes), and buyers ought to have code on their mobile device wallet that communicates with the Starbucks client to insure that it is a part of the network.

[pening]

Another serious issue and its dismissed as trivial and nothing to worry about. 

What will happen, just like with cards if you like, large chains might absorb the losses but the small shops after being burnt a few times wont accept Bitcoins.  You think someone wont double spend for a coffee?  You'd think they wouldn't use a stolen card, or fake money, yet they do.  Anyway, a coffee is a poor example as with their unit cost they can ignore it, most shops would want to wait for confirmation, just like they wait for the card terminal to respond. 

[Kane49]

You think Starbucks paying zero tax whilst the ordinary people pay on their minimum wages is good?

You are just jealous they have the rights to the name Starbucks and you can't name your Altcoin that

[toknormal]

I think you're all missing the point here.

If cryptocurrencies ever end up being used at the point of sale, don't think for a moment that those transactions are going to be hitting the blockchain directly.

Look at how todays cryptocurrency exchanges work. You can spend BTC, LTC,  PPC, XPM, WDC - whatever. All those trades are instant (if your not on cryptsy ! ). They have nothing to do with the confirmation time of the respective coin.

That's because your not actually doing blockchain transactions - your spending from a cryptocurrency account.

That's the way the retail economy works today out in the real world and that's the way it will always work. Transaction clearing houses like Visa and Maestro get the "trade" out of the way quickly for the vendor, then clear the transaction through the banks over the next few hours. It will continue to work this way except that instead of USD accounts you'll be spending BTC / LTC whatever on your credit/debit card.

Another reason that direct blockchain transaction will never be used at the point of sale is that they are far too inflexible. Doing the sale from an account through a clearing house allows for all kinds of problems to be resolved befor the transaction hits the blockchain - e.g. reversals, refunds, revisions. They also provide value added services like insuring the transaction, use of store cards etc etc.

That was my point in an earlier thread I made about coin transaction time. I don't really see the point in so called "fast coins". A 10 minute blockchain confirmation time is way fast enough. At the moment the banks take hours or days to clear transactions.

[justusranvier]

Another reason that direct blockchain transaction will never be used at the point of sale is that they are far too inflexible. Doing the sale from an account through a clearing house allows for all kinds of problems to be resolved befor the transaction hits the blockchain - e.g. reversals, refunds, revisions. They also provide value added services like insuring the transaction, use of store cards etc etc.

Do you think there's only one kind of blockchain transaction?

[toknormal]

Do you think there's only one kind of blockchain transaction?

Yes, I think there's only 1 kind of blockchain transaction.

[hilariousandco]

We shouldn't be celebrating crony capitalism.  Regulations and taxes that are selectively enforced against smaller competitors to the mega-corps are not better than regulations and taxes that apply to everyone.

Right, and the answer is to end the regulations and taxes.

The problem with uneven oppression is not that certain people aren't oppressed enough.

So you don't believe in taxes? Personally, I believe in a flat-tax; whether you earn £20k or £20 billion you pay the same percentage of tax. Successful people shouldn't be penalised for making money (anything over 50% is robbery), but the poor shouldn't be raped of the little they have either. I believe in taxes for building schools, roads and hospitals etc; not laundering tax-payers money into large corporations and the funding the war machine.

[emilia79]

flat-tax also increase inequalities:

 1000$ a month with a 20% tax: you already have     difficulty to pay for your food, goods, appartment
10000$ a month with a 20% tax: you           have no difficulty to live

In some countries, you have a progressive system:

poor : no tax
lower class: small percentage
midle : normal
high: high percentage

So everyone can live without being strangled.

Take a look at poverty rate in some liberal countries with the flat-tax.

[hilariousandco]

flat-tax also increase inequalities:

 1000$ a month with a 20% tax: you already have     difficulty to pay for your food, goods, appartment
10000$ a month with a 20% tax: you           have no difficulty to live

In some countries, you have a progressive system:

poor : no tax
lower class: small percentage
midle : normal
high: high percentage

So everyone can live without being strangled.

Take a look at poverty rate in some liberal countries with the flat-tax.

I don't believe you should pay income taxes unless you earn over a certain amount. The poor and those on part time / minimum wage would not pay any taxes. They would also get cuts on other things, like the poor already do. The tax brackets you suggested is what happens in most countries and is only fair if the percentages are fair. No tax brackets/system will ever be perfect, but I don't agree with millionaires having to pay 70% like in some countries; that's just ridiculous and complete robbery.

[jubalix]

For small purchases, you don't really have to wait for a confirmation.  You just need to make sure the transaction appears on the network.  If there are any losses, they can be written off as a cost of doing business or treated as theft.  The chances of double-spending for a cup of coffee are less than the chance of someone walking out on a restaurant bill.

but given in any block there are a lot of transactions, isn't any block up for subversion so that argument its only small doesn't cut it? OR arue you saing a company could wear a small loss like that so it doesn't mater

[Topazan]

We shouldn't be celebrating crony capitalism.  Regulations and taxes that are selectively enforced against smaller competitors to the mega-corps are not better than regulations and taxes that apply to everyone.

Right, and the answer is to end the regulations and taxes.

The problem with uneven oppression is not that certain people aren't oppressed enough.

Agreed.

Looking at it from their point of view, when the government slaps them with a 60% tax rate can you really blame them for trying to worm their way out of it? Taxes are at the point where they're just ridiculous, and everyone tries to cheat on them as a result.

No, I can't blame them, but I don't take any comfort in it either.  It's like saying "Sure, most people in North Korea are starving, but at least the political and military leaders are ok".  Crony capitalism is not a rebellion against western statism, it's an aspect of it that should be opposed just as firmly as any other statist violence.

[pand70]

In some countries those that pay taxes as they should are considered weak and even fools. People are bragging that they managed to avoid taxes with off shore companies etc.

[proton]

Could you clarify with one example:

Consider a merchant who accepts bitcoins.  Instead of converting my bitcoings to fiat currency, the merchant is happy to add on to his bitcoins after selling something to me and receiving bitcoins.

Does this transaction require a 10-min confirmation process?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Could you clarify with one example:

Consider a merchant who accepts bitcoins.  Instead of converting my bitcoings to fiat currency, the merchant is happy to add on to his bitcoins after selling something to me and receiving bitcoins.

Does this transaction require a 10-min confirmation process?

Until confirmed a transaction "could" be double spent.  Converting or not converting to fiat makes no difference.  How much of a risk the merchant is taking depends on a lot of factors so there is no simple black and white answer.  Some factors include the probability of fraud, offline vs online, how much is known about the customer, the ability for the merchant to reverse the sale (steam games for example would suffer essentially no risk/loss by accepting 0-confirm txs*), value of the transaction, and the margin/markup.

As an example soda machines have an average sale of ~$1, have a 70%+ gross margin, and the fraud must be committed in person.  On the other hand an online bullion merchant may have an average sale of $1,000+, have gross margins less than 2%, and the attack can be engaged online.  A 10-60 minute delay for soda machine is clearly not warranted and wouldn't be viable anyways, on the other hand accepting 0 confirm for bullion is probably stupid and given that shipping is not going to be instantaneous there is really no point to not wait for confirmations.

There is no one answer fits all.  IMHO the amount of concern about double spends vastly (by a couple orders of magnitude) the amount of actual double spends.


* On steam games (or other similar company which can revoke access to service).  So someone pays for Call of Duty with a double spend.   Steam records it as a valid purchase, customers starts downloading, 10-60 minutes later steam's back end is alerted of a double spend in the block.  Steam reverses the transaction and user is unable to access downloaded game.   Now one could make the argument that user may attempt to break steam's activation (piracy) but there are far easier ways to engage in piracy which don't involve spending any funds (i.e. just illegally torrent Call of Duty).  Other companies in similar scenario would be vpn providers, web hosting providers, domain name registrars, online multiplayer games, anything sold as a subscription, and any software as a service (antivirus for example).

[beetcoin]

flat-tax also increase inequalities:

 1000$ a month with a 20% tax: you already have     difficulty to pay for your food, goods, appartment
10000$ a month with a 20% tax: you           have no difficulty to live

In some countries, you have a progressive system:

poor : no tax
lower class: small percentage
midle : normal
high: high percentage

So everyone can live without being strangled.

Take a look at poverty rate in some liberal countries with the flat-tax.

well, if loopholes and tax havens are stopped, that would make it a different story. there's no point in taxing people who make under 20k though, they are just going to need government assistance.

[salfter]

This.  I don't care much for Charbucks, but if they have the Occutards pissed off at them, more power to 'em.

Pissing off occutards should be applauded indeed.

I don't care for the occupy movement either, but I think you've got to be a capitalist pig to think it's ok for multi billion dollar companies to get away with paying zero tax whilst the ordinary citizen foots the bill.

Why are you starting from the assumption that the government needs massive taxation in order to operate?