Did China just legalize Bitcoin, clarify regulation, for its free market use?

[EvilPanda]

1) Firstly bitcoins are not anonymous (if you want to buy them via an exchange the exchange demands personal information which it will hand out to governments.) Secondly you keep assuming that maybe when bitcoin ever becomes anonymous (how?) it might be used for a fringe purporse instead of cash. Why? Why not use cash to buy household appliances and whores. Again its much more cumbersome to use bitcoin. Also you dont explain how the business selling you household appliances will evade taxes via bitcoin.

Most people will not want to evade taxes.

2) Again if this guy is operating a small/ medium/ larger business he will need to pay taxes. Having customers is a public act; if you buy stuff with profits that are physical this is true also for the software entrepreneur. How do you know what business he is operating and if he is going to report tax?

3) Again why would anybody use bitcoin for fringe small time transaction and not cash? Yes if you buy something from him and he lives in another city. But how will you know about him? Via websites offering products? Public and therefore not anonymous for the person selling these products via the web.

Serious and competent businesses dont evade taxes. Nobody wants to risk jail time.

4) No that would assume governments loosing the money monopoly. You have not addressed my points concerning small, medium and large businesses and tax controls.

1) So you think the government will create special divisions for checking the profits people made on btc based on their exchange balance? I find that improbable. And what if someone kept btc in his wallet for years and never converted to fiat? How would you trace him? Don't forget that Ulbricht managed to prosper until he made a mistake of placing his site code on some software forum. Most of the dealers who sold on his site weren't captured. And we are talking about drug dealing and big profits. The system can't even deal with that, how will it deal with Joe sending his son money without reporting it to the higher power?

Everyone I know would prefer to avoid income tax as it is unjust. I also know a lot of people who do not report their side jobs. Look what happened in France when they increased the taxes.

2) Why would I care?

3) You really never used craigslist type sites? So you think someone will knock on your door and ask you if you've been doing gardening plumbing or whatever for John Doe because they saw him leaving you a message on some advert site? Give me a break What about TOR network?

4)They will lose it anyway, you can't print money forever.

[EvilPanda]

Oh crap another thread wasted by somebody trying to argue with AnnoyMint.
ps.
You,  Panda! , out of the way:)

Want to take over, big brother? Lead the way!

[bitcoinminer]

No they didn't , you just imagining things because you hold BTC and its dropping so fast get back to reality they said its not a currency no way and currently banned for financial institutions , it shows you China may ban it at any given time without any given notice , virtual commodity ? what the hell that mean ...

Your retort is irrational, as I am sure all the No votes are. I have studied the ruling and analyzed what it legally says. Your paranoia does not agree with the reality of what the ruling says.

Pass your Bitcoins to strong hands who have sound logic and know how to read what the ruling actually says. And who understand that China is slowly liberalizing, while the west is slowing turning into a spy agency and capital controls prison. Note I have been a China critic over at http://mpettis.com, just find the posts with the avatar of Homer Simpson's small brain x-ray.

P.S. Actually I was holding no BTC (and never owned any) until today when someone sent me several to distribute to typhoon victims.

I'm going to make the assumption that you're telling the truth, and that you speak mandarin, can read it, and actually have legal knowledge.

Please "analyze what it legally says", aside from the translations you provided, which state that it should not be treated like a currency, and can not be used as a currency, but rather as a speculation vehicle at their own risk.

Does china also say that their Yuan should not be treated like a currency, that purchases cannot be made with it like currency, and it is a speculation vehicle to be used at their own risk?

[porc]

1) Firstly bitcoins are not anonymous (if you want to buy them via an exchange the exchange demands personal information which it will hand out to governments.) Secondly you keep assuming that maybe when bitcoin ever becomes anonymous (how?) it might be used for a fringe purporse instead of cash. Why? Why not use cash to buy household appliances and whores. Again its much more cumbersome to use bitcoin. Also you dont explain how the business selling you household appliances will evade taxes via bitcoin.

Most people will not want to evade taxes.

2) Again if this guy is operating a small/ medium/ larger business he will need to pay taxes. Having customers is a public act; if you buy stuff with profits that are physical this is true also for the software entrepreneur. How do you know what business he is operating and if he is going to report tax?

3) Again why would anybody use bitcoin for fringe small time transaction and not cash? Yes if you buy something from him and he lives in another city. But how will you know about him? Via websites offering products? Public and therefore not anonymous for the person selling these products via the web.

Serious and competent businesses dont evade taxes. Nobody wants to risk jail time.

4) No that would assume governments loosing the money monopoly. You have not addressed my points concerning small, medium and large businesses and tax controls.

1) So you think the government will create special divisions for checking the profits people made on btc based on their exchange balance? I find that improbable. And what if someone kept btc in his wallet for years and never converted to fiat? How would you trace him? Don't forget that Ulbricht managed to prosper until he made a mistake of placing his site code on some software forum. Most of the dealers who sold on his site weren't captured. And we are talking about drug dealing and big profits. The system can't even deal with that, how will it deal with Joe sending his son money without reporting it to the higher power?

Everyone I know would prefer to avoid income tax as it is unjust. I also know a lot of people who do not report their side jobs. Look what happened in France when they increased the taxes.

2) Why would I care?

3) You really never used craigslist type sites? So you think someone will knock on your door and ask you if you've been doing gardening plumbing or whatever for John Doe because they saw him leaving you a message on some advert site? Give me a break What about TOR network?

4)They will lose it anyway, you can't print money forever.

Again checking up on small, medium and large sized business is normal and done by every state. Its called enforcement of tax laws.
Checking up on individuals is possible as well and creates fear. Not many people like to evade tax law due to enormous punishment.

Buying used property and small time services from a individual not a business (that will be controlled by tax man) can be done with cash (more anonymous than bitcoin).

They will prohibit merchants from accepting bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not anonymous.

Converting bitcoins to dollars increases transaction costs enormously.

Again I am making all of these points to show you that bitcoin will never be mainstream. Not even 1% of the economy. Tiny! Get it?

[bitcoinminer]

Converting bitcoins to dollars increases transaction costs enormously.

Again I am making all of these points to show you that bitcoin will never be mainstream. Not even 1% of the economy. Tiny! Get it?

Dude, Anonymint's Dad is a lawyer.  Get it? :-D

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

I clicked "no" by mistake lol.   

[niothor]

Oh crap another thread wasted by somebody trying to argue with AnnoyMint.
ps.
You,  Panda! , out of the way:)

Want to take over, big brother? Lead the way!

You were the only one without the ignore in two pages , ruining the scenery.

[AnonyMint]

If the bold part is your point I can only laugh.

But still that isn't the point. You would need to actually not be stubborn and take time to read and digest.

I guess you can't even read too.

And you still haven't realized that tangible things will become a very small percentage of the value being created in a knowledge economy. Duh.

And if you don't understand why that must be so, or how that impacts your points, then you need to read the linked thread, because I can't condense all of that explanation into a single sentence for you.

[AnonyMint]

Please "analyze what it legally says", aside from the translations you provided, which state that it should not be treated like a currency, and can not be used as a currency, but rather as a speculation vehicle at their own risk.

Does china also say that their Yuan should not be treated like a currency, that purchases cannot be made with it like currency, and it is a speculation vehicle to be used at their own risk?

My father once told me that a contract can't take advantage of any party, otherwise it is invalid. In other words, everything must be transparent, otherwise we can go to court.

You are assuming that the legal definition of a currency is that "all things on the market can only be purchased using currency and never with barter".

That is a patently false assumption.

The typical definition of legal tender has to do with finance not what merchants can accept:

noun
1.
coins or banknotes that must be accepted if offered in payment of a debt.

The document clearly communicates the purpose which is to identify Bitcoin as a (virtual) commodity (without any backing) and not as a currency that can participate in the government backed financial system i.e. a financial system created out of debt and based on debt. It communicates that the government has an obligation to control currencies, because it safeguards the public interest (with for example deposit insurance and central bank liquidity). Thus it is not appropriate for the government to be responsible for backing up losses due to financial activities on Bitcoin when in fact it is a global and the government has no capacity to create BTC liquidity out-of-thin-air. And the document communicates that the best the government can do is education, money laundering oversight, and exchange regulation.

The document is more of an admission of defeat (that the government can't control the backing of Bitcoin any more than it can mine gold at 0-cost) and defining the limitations of government w.r.t. to decentralized proof-of-work.

China could shutdown QQQ because it was completely created within the country. They can't stop the creation and use of Bitcoin outside their borders (or even within), thus it is fruitless for them to attempt to shut it down, they would just force all activity to the underground economy. Much better for China they regulate the exchanges.

Note I worked with the English translation on Reddit, and I assume it has been peer reviewed by many who do speak Mandarin.

Dude, Anonymint's Dad is a lawyer.  Get it? :-D

You make a fool of yourself for everyone to see.

You were the only one without the ignore in two pages , ruining the scenery.

Enjoy the ignor(ing)ant bliss.

[AnonyMint]

Both answers are wrong because china haven't talked about bitcoin but about bitcoin as a currency and bitcoin as a commodity.

Care to explain your logic?

The document implied Bitcoin is legal as a commodity for use in the free market, and indicated the regulation thereof. Thus agreeing with the title and poll question of this thread. I see no logic in your sentence.

[AnonyMint]

4) They won't put anyone in jail if BTC becomes big. If you can't fight them join them

You were doing good but that part of your argument isn't logical.

Doing my best

Puting people who use btc in jail is not only illogical but also improbable. Prisons are full already  
Governments will have to one day recognize BTC if only enough people vote for it. We have democracy, right?

You assume that they need to put everyone in jail in order to incentivize all Bitcoin users to require the identity of everyone they buy from and sell to. I had already explained upthread that they only need to make a few example cases of a few Bitcoin users in order to cause most Bitcoin users to become scared and do what the government wants. Then they can put the stubborn ones in jail.

Now if you had a very strong anonymity in a coin, such that most users were confident their identity could not be discovered, then there is a greater chance the users will ignore the government, because most of them wouldn't be ending up in jail as an example to the rest.

[bitcoinminer]

]
Dude, Anonymint's Dad is a lawyer.  Get it? :-D

You make a fool of yourself for everyone to see.

You were the only one without the ignore in two pages , ruining the scenery.

Enjoy the ignor(ing)ant bliss.

I make a fool of myself on purpose, for my own and other's amusement...

...you do it because you're a douchebag.

[phelix]

OP has a good point (took him off my ignore list )

china not only legalized bitcoins 100% they put it outside their tight currency controls!!! which is actually a REALLY REALLY good thing for today. there are many people who don't understand china and many people who can't quite grasp how good this news is for now! china treating it as a commodity for the time being is really great! now it will go on to surpass gold in terms of value. see you at the moon

The similar US document had quite a positive influence on price. But this time it seems a lot of people misunderstood.

[AnonyMint]

There was upthread discussion about anonymity, well my oh my look what facebook is up to.  

And pleaassse don't give me that BS about the public ledger increasing transparency fairness.

Also China's currency just passed the Euro in international transaction use.

Appears someone wrote an article that copies my theme from my OP.

[AnonyMint]

From my private email:

Hope you don't mind if I quote you anonymously.

Also don't forget the raw milk fiasco in California in terms of the state micro-managing lives down to the private barter of healthy milk!

> I just finished looking over the bitcoin thread Did China Legalize
> Bitcoin.
> Some trivial input here on this comment
> You really never used craigslist type sites? So you think someone will
> knock on your door and ask you if you've been doing gardening plumbing or
> whatever for John Doe
> Within this last year I recall an AP article about a California law
> enforcement Craig's List sting operation where small independent
> landscapers were being charged with operating without a proper license or
> permit.  The workers were just doing lawn mowing, etc.   Two years ago I
> read a NY Times article about extreme surveillance tactics by tax
> officials in Italy, they actually check receipts on all purchases and
> match them up to reported income.   This is the type of extreme monitoring
> of ALL CONSUMPTION PATTERNS required in Technocracy.   The white papers
> are clear on this.
> I'm always amazed how myopic and gullible most people are.

I don't see the article I read, the articles below mention a
variety of targets: painters, landscapers, etc.
http://boingboing.net/2013/09/19/sting-operations-on-people-ans.html
http://beforeitsnews.com/libertarian/2013/09/cslb-sting-operations-continue-to-defy-common-sense-2523954.html

[PenAndPaper]

Both answers are wrong because china haven't talked about bitcoin but about bitcoin as a currency and bitcoin as a commodity.

Care to explain your logic?

The document implied Bitcoin is legal as a commodity for use in the free market, and indicated the regulation thereof. Thus agreeing with the title and poll question of this thread. I see no logic in your sentence.

China said bitcoin is legal to trade as a commodity in online exchanges.
China said bitcoin is illegal to use as a currency in the market to buy products or services thats why baidu removed it immediately after the notice.
So bitcoin is not legal or illegal in china. Its a commodity and and not a currency in China so your poll is wrong anyway.

[AnonyMint]

China said bitcoin is illegal to use as a currency in the market to buy products or services thats why baidu removed it immediately after the notice.

The English translation of the document on Reddit (which I see was peer reviewed by those who understand Mandarin) does not say that.

The document says that financial institutions may not be directly involved with Bitcoin. It does not say that merchants may not accept commodity barter. Please stop being stupid.

The reason Baidu provided is they said they decided Bitcoin is too volatile. Clearly they knew it was volatile before they started accepting it, so they are lying and appear to me to be complicit in manipulating the value up and then down in a pump & dump (can you say "for profit").

So bitcoin is not legal or illegal in china. Its a commodity and and not a currency in China so your poll is wrong anyway.

My poll asks "Did China just legalize Bitcoin, clarify regulation, for its free market use?". That means is it now legal to use Bitcoin as commodity for speculation and trade in China. The answer is clearly "yes".

And you are showing yourself to be not very astute. My recollection is you've stated in past posts in other threads that you run a business online (easydns.com) so it is your best interest to be more careful about not showing yourself to be incompetent.

[AnonyMint]

Bobby Lee said nothing about the conversion of BTC to RMB then handing the RMB to merchant. And he said the demographics are 90% college educated and long-term investment, not for currency, so the following is irrelevant short and medium-term. He said we are developing the ecosystem with customers who are engineers.

The regulation did state that payment companies couldn't work with Bitcoin. The second speaker in your linked video said he expects such regulation to loosen as China loosens their overall RMB currency controls.

I guess Chinese sellers can still use payment gateways that instantly convert bitcoins into RMB and then settle it to merchant's account. Of course prices will be in national currency.

Given that Chinese individuals are free to buy bitcoins and hold them as investment, they are also free to buy any goods for BTC through described above payment platforms.

actually if you listen through the video (i didnt quote it), it removes many bitcoin business models from china.  the government is very clear that they do not want goods/services exchanged for bitcoin.  they are aware of teh bartering rules but i would assume they deliberately omitted mentioning that it's ok to barter.  in China, you don't do things that the government frowns upon, they will put you in prison or execute you.  look up shadow banking in china.

here's some commentary by a chinese citizen that i quoted for a reddit post.  

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1sgjxw/post_by_a_chinese_citizen_on_how_the_china_rally/

In theory merchants can accept RMB and the Bitcoin can be converted at the time of purchase same as for Bitpay. However, we must consider whether such a Bitpay for China would be an exchange or payment service. If you convert your BTC to RMB, then send the RMB as a payment, it seems like two separate functions and could be handled by two different companies interopting in real-time.

So you have an account at BTC China and an account at a payment provider. You link them and set them to interopt in real-time. Problem solved. Regulation adhered to. It is possible that your payment provider won't let you fund directly from an exchange, so your exchange pays the payment provider via a financial instruction, but there is no the reason the two of them can't do the accounting in real-time. Let's say instead the regulation require the customer to withdraw the money to a financial institution in the customer's name, then fund the payment provider. There is still no reason the accounting couldn't be done in real-time, assuming the customer has a balance in his/her account at the financial institution or the payment provider, the transaction could be paid out of that and then exchanged BTC could replish that balance. Or the payment provider can delay payment to the merchant and/or offer chargebacks.

Orthogonally, I am not clear whether barter trade is illegal in China. The statements at the links provided in this thread seem to think barter trade is illegal in China, but they have cited no laws of evidence that is so. Rather it seems there are massive underground economies in China, such as the Shadow banking.

Note that China did ban the use of virtual gaming currencies such as Q Coins for bartering for real goods. But they did not ban people from selling their virtual coins and obtaining RMB. China wants to make sure it knows about and can control all movement of currency. Thus China should not have a problem with converting virtual currencies to RMB and then sending the RMB as payment.

China actually legalized Bitcoin trading as a commodity.

The shorts are trying to talk down the price, so they buy in cheaper, but they don't appear to have the chart on their side.

[Gabi]

A note about that part:

Two years ago I
> read a NY Times article about extreme surveillance tactics by tax
> officials in Italy, they actually check receipts on all purchases and
> match them up to reported income.   This is the type of extreme monitoring
> of ALL CONSUMPTION PATTERNS required in Technocracy.

Tax evasion is rampant in Italy. In Europe only Greece has a higher tax evasion rate.

[LiteCoinGuy]

Both answers are wrong because china haven't talked about bitcoin but about bitcoin as a currency and bitcoin as a commodity.

Care to explain your logic?

The document implied Bitcoin is legal as a commodity for use in the free market, and indicated the regulation thereof. Thus agreeing with the title and poll question of this thread. I see no logic in your sentence.

China said bitcoin is legal to trade as a commodity in online exchanges.
China said bitcoin is illegal to use as a currency in the market to buy products or services thats why baidu removed it immediately after the notice.
So bitcoin is not legal or illegal in china. Its a commodity and and not a currency in China so your poll is wrong anyway.

yep, but maybe you can still use it in "barter" transactions...