Why Bitcoin will collapse in price.

[deed02392]

yes btc could be replaced by other peer to peer crypto currencies, but the whole capitlization of cryptos is going to explode. And btc will be the leader in the first place. The value of gold itself relies on some kind of inertia.

no btc cannot be hacked if you buy a new pc and you open your principal wallet just in case of big transactions. An uber safe protocol is definitely cheaper and safer than building a caveau.

No, there is no strict need of jewelery in gold. You can wear false gold without anyone noticing, you can alsa wear wonderful copper jewels, but gold is rare. Prices of gold have big swings, but grow on the long term, in no way at this point the value of btc will go to zero, to much difficult to destroy the whole organism. So, because btc are rare, hoarding will restart in cycles in the very same way it did from 2009. No need of btc as an everyday currency for this behaviour.

You have not addressed my point. What can I do with my Bitcoin once you have transferred them to me?

I believe I have addressed this point, how about a reply to those of us who have mentioned the fact you ONLY need to pay capital gains tax if you refuse to continue trading with Bitcoins?

[diedicar]

yes btc could be replaced by other peer to peer crypto currencies, but the whole capitlization of cryptos is going to explode. And btc will be the leader in the first place. The value of gold itself relies on some kind of inertia.

no btc cannot be hacked if you buy a new pc and you open your principal wallet just in case of big transactions. An uber safe protocol is definitely cheaper and safer than building a caveau.

No, there is no strict need of jewelery in gold. You can wear false gold without anyone noticing, you can alsa wear wonderful copper jewels, but gold is rare. Prices of gold have big swings, but grow on the long term, in no way at this point the value of btc will go to zero, to much difficult to destroy the whole organism. So, because btc are rare, hoarding will restart in cycles in the very same way it did from 2009. No need of btc as an everyday currency for this behaviour.

You have not addressed my point. What can I do with my Bitcoin once you have transferred it to me?

watch it like the dragon fefnir in the Nibelungen saga and fell rich. What do you do with dollars in china? you do not spend it and they have not any practical use. But dollars are a reserve currency (store of value) because are backed by some important power. The computing power backs btc as the most powerful network, and it's going to increase over time.

[porc]

yes btc could be replaced by other peer to peer crypto currencies, but the whole capitlization of cryptos is going to explode. And btc will be the leader in the first place. The value of gold itself relies on some kind of inertia.

no btc cannot be hacked if you buy a new pc and you open your principal wallet just in case of big transactions. An uber safe protocol is definitely cheaper and safer than building a caveau.

No, there is no strict need of jewelery in gold. You can wear false gold without anyone noticing, you can alsa wear wonderful copper jewels, but gold is rare. Prices of gold have big swings, but grow on the long term, in no way at this point the value of btc will go to zero, to much difficult to destroy the whole organism. So, because btc are rare, hoarding will restart in cycles in the very same way it did from 2009. No need of btc as an everyday currency for this behaviour.

You have not addressed my point. What can I do with my Bitcoin once you have transferred them to me?

1) I believe I have addressed this point, 2) how about a reply to those of us who have mentioned the fact you ONLY need to pay capital gains tax if you refuse to continue trading with Bitcoins?

1) Ply provide your quote that answers following question: What can I do with my bitcoin once you have transferred one to me?

2) I have explained in detail why capital gains have to be payed on bitcoin (read the thread). "Only pay capital gains tax if you refuse to continue trading with Bitcoins". This is incorrect. If you trade your Bitcoin for goods the law views this as selling your bitcoin. The selling of your bitcoin triggers capital gains tax. Again: Thats why nobody is using alternative media of exchange.

[porc]

yes btc could be replaced by other peer to peer crypto currencies, but the whole capitlization of cryptos is going to explode. And btc will be the leader in the first place. The value of gold itself relies on some kind of inertia.

no btc cannot be hacked if you buy a new pc and you open your principal wallet just in case of big transactions. An uber safe protocol is definitely cheaper and safer than building a caveau.

No, there is no strict need of jewelery in gold. You can wear false gold without anyone noticing, you can alsa wear wonderful copper jewels, but gold is rare. Prices of gold have big swings, but grow on the long term, in no way at this point the value of btc will go to zero, to much difficult to destroy the whole organism. So, because btc are rare, hoarding will restart in cycles in the very same way it did from 2009. No need of btc as an everyday currency for this behaviour.

You have not addressed my point. What can I do with my Bitcoin once you have transferred it to me?

watch it like the dragon fefnir in the Nibelungen saga and fell rich. What do you do with dollars in china? you do not spend it and they have not any practical use. But dollars are a reserve currency (store of value) because are backed by some important power. The computing power backs btc as the most powerful network, and it's going to increase over time.

The dollar has value because the US government forces US cititzens to trade with it and accept it for payments of debts. It also expects taxes to be paid in dollar. If this forceful enactment was not backing the US dollar it would have no value and would not be used as a media of exchange.

The miners are a cost to bitcoin. I fail to see how they give bitcoin value. Again what can I do with a bitcoin once you transferred it to me?

[diedicar]

Yes but you do not pay taxes in dollars in china. But china has north of 1 trillion dollars reserves. It's enough that SOMEONE BIG ENOUGH accepts bitcoin for whatever use we know the btc hoarders community is going to double every 3 months becoming as large and as difficult to move than US governement, why all this people should renounce to the unique safety and rareness of this asset? Only a governement war against bitcoin could succed, and also in this case some value will be left. What can we say about this value left one hundred years later? coludn't hoarding restart? That's what's happening since 2009, why should it change? every regulation, taxes, etc. is just an approval of the existence of btc, and EVERY RARE ASSET WITH SOME STEADY DEMAND IS A STORE OF VALUE. Why? because at some time ther will be hoarding of that asset and self renforcing demand. Look at the chart of gold... Copper is beautyful and useful, but not rare so the use value is not important   In every case btc we have really a lot of time before any real bubble, we have to reach at least 500 billions market cap to end the ponzi scheme base. So, have a good ride!

[sdp]

yes btc could be replaced by other peer to peer crypto currencies, but the whole capitlization of cryptos is going to explode. And btc will be the leader in the first place. The value of gold itself relies on some kind of inertia.

no btc cannot be hacked if you buy a new pc and you open your principal wallet just in case of big transactions. An uber safe protocol is definitely cheaper and safer than building a caveau.

No, there is no strict need of jewelery in gold. You can wear false gold without anyone noticing, you can alsa wear wonderful copper jewels, but gold is rare. Prices of gold have big swings, but grow on the long term, in no way at this point the value of btc will go to zero, to much difficult to destroy the whole organism. So, because btc are rare, hoarding will restart in cycles in the very same way it did from 2009. No need of btc as an everyday currency for this behaviour.

You have not addressed my point. What can I do with my Bitcoin once you have transferred it to me?

watch it like the dragon fefnir in the Nibelungen saga and fell rich. What do you do with dollars in china? you do not spend it and they have not any practical use. But dollars are a reserve currency (store of value) because are backed by some important power. The computing power backs btc as the most powerful network, and it's going to increase over time.

The dollar has value because the US government forces US cititzens to trade with it and accept it for payments of debts. It also expects taxes to be paid in dollar. If this forceful enactment was not backing the US dollar it would have no value and would not be used as a media of exchange.

The miners are a cost to bitcoin. I fail to see how they give bitcoin value. Again what can I do with a bitcoin once you transferred it to me?

You make a lot of good arguments here.   

I'll tell you about mining:  Mining is a side effect for maintaining a kind of transaction list.  The fact that they get 25 BTC every 8 minutes doesn't add value to bitcoin but it does give us a maximum price.  If Bitcoin rises too high, people can buy mining equipment and make a profit mining.  This maximum goes up with difficulty (lower returns per Hash) and it goes up with time (lowering block reward).  Since there are so many miners maintaining the transaction list, "block chain", we can rely on this with great certainty.  That is why miners add value to bitcoin, even though you could say they also take away by inflating the supply.

sdp

[porc]

1) Yes but you do not pay taxes in dollars in china. But china has north of 1 trillion dollars reserves.

The US government forces US citizens to trade with dollars. The Chinese can take their dollars and buy goods the Americans produce. The American producer has to accept the paper dollar (that for itself has no value) because government is pointing a gun at him.  Basically nothing (paper dollar) becomes something because the US government walks into the shop with me with guns and "convinces" the shop owner that I can trade Nothing (my paper dollar) for Something (his goods).

Now what can I do with bitcoin once you transferred it to me?

[sdp]

Yes but you do not pay taxes in dollars in china. But china has north of 1 trillion dollars reserves. It's enough that SOMEONE BIG ENOUGH accepts bitcoin for whatever use we know the btc hoarders community is going to double every 3 months becoming as large and as difficult to move than US governement, why all this people should renounce to the unique safety and rareness of this asset? Only a governement war against bitcoin could succed, and also in this case some value will be left. What can we say about this value left one hundred years later? coludn't hoarding restart? That's what's happening since 2009, why should it change? every regulation, taxes, etc. is just an approval of the existence of btc, and EVERY RARE ASSET WITH SOME STEADY DEMAND IS A STORE OF VALUE. Why? because at some time ther will be hoarding of that asset and self renforcing demand. Look at the chart of gold... Copper is beautyful and useful, but not rare so the use value is not important   In every case btc we have really a lot of time before any real bubble, we have to reach at least 500 billions market cap to end the ponzi scheme base. So, have a good ride!

I wonder if we apply the term "market cap" to things like copper and iron if these values would be greater than that of gold.

Take the number of kilograms in reserves in the world times their price per kilogram = market cap.

[diedicar]

1) Yes but you do not pay taxes in dollars in china. But china has north of 1 trillion dollars reserves.

The US government forces US citizens to trade with dollars. The Chinese can take their dollars and buy goods the Americans produce. The American producer has to accept the paper dollar (that for itself has no value) because government is pointing a gun at him.  Basically nothing (paper dollar) becomes something because the US government walks into the shop with me with guns and "convinces" the shop owner that I can trade Nothing (my paper dollar) for Something (his goods).

Now what can I do with bitcoin once you transferred it to me?

you can buy almost everything, do not you? what you are saying is misleading there are no cops in the shops. You do not need violence to emit currencies, you can just be a bank. If there will be, and it will, rich people owning both bitcoins and other assets in no way the value can go to 0. So it is a store of SOME value, given the rareness cyclical hoarding comes, that's a fact and depends all on the portability and safeness of this asset, which are REAL values no other asset can show. It does not matter if a btc is worth 1 dollar or thousand, it's a safe store for a million dollars wealth, that's enough. That's different from tulip mania because tulips are not inherently a safe storage, we can't say the same of all other bubbles. Paradoxically having no backing asset but just an excellence in cryptographic safety makes this bubble a no bubble or the perfect bubble, as you wish. Only security issues definitely matter.  

[porc]

1) Yes but you do not pay taxes in dollars in china. But china has north of 1 trillion dollars reserves.

The US government forces US citizens to trade with dollars. The Chinese can take their dollars and buy goods the Americans produce. The American producer has to accept the paper dollar (that for itself has no value) because government is pointing a gun at him.  Basically nothing (paper dollar) becomes something because the US government walks into the shop with me with guns and "convinces" the shop owner that I can trade Nothing (my paper dollar) for Something (his goods).

Now what can I do with bitcoin once you transferred it to me?

you can buy almost everything, do not you? what you are saying is misleading there are no cops in the shops. You do not need violence to emit currencies, you can just be a bank. If there will be, and it will, rich people owning both bitcoins and other assets in no way the value can go to 0. So it is a store of SOME value, given the rareness cyclical hoarding comes, that's a fact and depends all on the portability and safeness of this asset, which are REAL values no other asset can show. It does not matter if a btc is worth 1 dollar or thousand, it's a safe store for a million dollars wealth, that's enough. That's different from tulip mania because tulips are not inherently a safe storage, we can't say the same of all other bubbles. Paradoxically having no backing asset but just an excellence in cryptographic safety makes this bubble a no bubble or the perfect bubble, as you wish. Only security issues definitely matter.  

Why exchange something for nothing? I dont care if nothing is rare. Its still nothing.

[deisik]

you can buy almost everything, do not you? what you are saying is misleading there are no cops in the shops. You do not need violence to emit currencies, you can just be a bank. If there will be, and it will, rich people owning both bitcoins and other assets in no way the value can go to 0. So it is a store of SOME value, given the rareness cyclical hoarding comes, that's a fact and depends all on the portability and safeness of this asset, which are REAL values no other asset can show. It does not matter if a btc is worth 1 dollar or thousand, it's a safe store for a million dollars wealth, that's enough. That's different from tulip mania because tulips are not inherently a safe storage, we can't say the same of all other bubbles. Paradoxically having no backing asset but just an excellence in cryptographic safety makes this bubble a no bubble or the perfect bubble, as you wish. Only security issues definitely matter.  

Why exchange something for nothing? I dont care if nothing is rare. Its still nothing.

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

[porc]

you can buy almost everything, do not you? what you are saying is misleading there are no cops in the shops. You do not need violence to emit currencies, you can just be a bank. If there will be, and it will, rich people owning both bitcoins and other assets in no way the value can go to 0. So it is a store of SOME value, given the rareness cyclical hoarding comes, that's a fact and depends all on the portability and safeness of this asset, which are REAL values no other asset can show. It does not matter if a btc is worth 1 dollar or thousand, it's a safe store for a million dollars wealth, that's enough. That's different from tulip mania because tulips are not inherently a safe storage, we can't say the same of all other bubbles. Paradoxically having no backing asset but just an excellence in cryptographic safety makes this bubble a no bubble or the perfect bubble, as you wish. Only security issues definitely matter.  

Why exchange something for nothing? I dont care if nothing is rare. Its still nothing.

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

I am glad that nothing (thing of no value) is rare. If it would be plentiful it might waste space (something). Now at the moment people pay something for nothing because they think tomorrow the nothing will be worth more something.

Now some say: I can transfer nothing cheaply. Well incurring something (cost) for sending nothing is a waste not a benefit.

[deisik]

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

I am glad that nothing (thing of no value) is rare. If it would be plentiful it might waste space (something). Now at the moment people pay something for nothing because they think tomorrow the nothing will be worth more something.

Now some say: I can transfer nothing cheaply. Well incurring something (cost) for sending nothing is a waste not a benefit.

Stop talking bullshit really. If you don't value something (thing of no value in your terms), it doesn't mean that everyone is of the same opinion. Is this really so hard to understand? It is the subjective value that ultimately matters here...

[porc]

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

I am glad that nothing (thing of no value) is rare. If it would be plentiful it might waste space (something). Now at the moment people pay something for nothing because they think tomorrow the nothing will be worth more something.

Now some say: I can transfer nothing cheaply. Well incurring something (cost) for sending nothing is a waste not a benefit.

Stop talking bullshit really. If you don't value something (thing of no value in your terms), it doesn't mean that everyone is of the same opinion. Is this really so hard to understand? It is the subjective value that ultimately matters here...

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

[deisik]

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

Dollars in your bank account. i.e electronic money existing only as records in some obscure database, are nothing and thing of no value according to your logic, right? If so, could you please transfer all these things of no value to my bank account?

[porc]

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

Dollars in your bank account. i.e electronic money existing only as records in some obscure database, are nothing and thing of no value according to your logic, right? If so, could you please transfer all these things of no value to my bank account?

Did you even read the thread? I have explained to you already why dollars are valuable. Fact is: you cant say why bitcoin is valuable because a bitcoin you transferred to me HAS!!! no value.

Water has value. Food has value. Nobody will discuss this. Sometimes it costs more (desert) sometimes less (rainforest). But it has VALUE!

Now Bitcoin? Its NOTHING and you know it! Thats why you are saying: Look at the dollar, it has not value too (which is incorrect).

Its like the fat boy saying: Yes I am fat but other boys are fat too, so its ok.
You say: The dollar has 0 value so it is ok that bitcoin also have 0 value.

Its not ok. And your comparison is false as dollars have value.

[deed02392]

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

I am glad that nothing (thing of no value) is rare. If it would be plentiful it might waste space (something). Now at the moment people pay something for nothing because they think tomorrow the nothing will be worth more something.

Now some say: I can transfer nothing cheaply. Well incurring something (cost) for sending nothing is a waste not a benefit.

Stop talking bullshit really. If you don't value something (thing of no value in your terms), it doesn't mean that everyone is of the same opinion. Is this really so hard to understand? It is the subjective value that ultimately matters here...

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

Valuable means you can assign a value to it. If there are only 100 of these insects, I expect a museum might pay you for one, yes.

[porc]

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

I am glad that nothing (thing of no value) is rare. If it would be plentiful it might waste space (something). Now at the moment people pay something for nothing because they think tomorrow the nothing will be worth more something.

Now some say: I can transfer nothing cheaply. Well incurring something (cost) for sending nothing is a waste not a benefit.

Stop talking bullshit really. If you don't value something (thing of no value in your terms), it doesn't mean that everyone is of the same opinion. Is this really so hard to understand? It is the subjective value that ultimately matters here...

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

Valuable means you can assign a value to it. If there are only 100 of these insects, I expect a museum might pay you for one, yes.

Stop diverting. What is bitcoins value? You know it has 0 value but dont want to admit it, as you want to dump it on the next guy.

[deisik]

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

First of all, you're confusing me with someone else, because I never said that bitcoin is rare and thus would be valuable. Secondly, people would want dollar and gold because dollars and gold have importance to them as means for the achievement of their desired ends. That's what subjective value actually means...

[deed02392]

Stop diverting. What is bitcoins value? You know it has 0 value but dont want to admit it, as you want to dump it on the next guy.

Water has value. Food has value. Nobody will discuss this. Sometimes it costs more (desert) sometimes less (rainforest). But it has VALUE!

You explain that USD has value because you HAVE to be able to exchange dollars for food, water etc.. Bitcoin has value by the same token, in that you can exchange it for food, water, ie things we all agree are valuable (we need them to survive).

Now, a government COULD say it's illegal to trade with Bitcoins, but people could still trade it for food and water etc if they really wanted to. And that's presuming a country declares it illegal which I think a lot of people believe is unlikely.