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Author Topic: Flexcoin is LIVE to everyone!  (Read 11780 times)
shotgun
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August 12, 2011, 05:28:24 AM
 #121


You have failed to understand several basics going on here:
  • Flexcoin and how it interacts with BTC is not a money transfer service. It's a BTC transaction service. No USD or other currency is being dealt with so those "laws" you are referring to not only don't apply, they don't even exist for BTC.

"a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

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  • Dwolla doesn't verify their users - they link your bank account and do not have any control over the validity or legality of the bank account you are linking to.

That is a form of verification that can be used.  Paypal allows you to verify your identity the same way.

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  • Users of Flexcoin do not have to move USD into their account to transact BTC, ever, at all. Everything is funded via BTC.
  • USD never even has to interact with any BTC use unless you choose to. The perfect example is a 24x7 miner that has generated BTC out of thin air (and electricity). I can fund my Flexcoin account via BTC I've mined and never ever have a money trail or identity trail involved -- the gov (whichever one you are referring to given that BTC and Flexcoin are not linked to any country's economy anyway) has no idea or trace of my BTC generated through the mining process.

Again "a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

(In case this is not going through.  BTC doesn't even need to be a currency.

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So I'm not sure what your user identity tracking high-horse soapbox rant is all about but you need to realize the following:

No soapbox here, just the internet.

Quote
  • No one is ever going to give their personal information in order to setup accounts for BTC transactions where USD (or other gov backed currency) is not involved.

When trying to make a point, absolutes are not your friend.  I can name at least one person who won't do business at all with a company who is standing to lose his BTC.

Quote
  • No one wants to be tracked via BTC for various reasons, most of all taxes and the fact that BTC is independent of governments - those gov's can suck it when it comes to BTC as they have no hold/jurisdiction/etc on the BTC economy.

Individuals in the U.S. have to report their capital gains by law.  If they don't, it's their business and I don't care if manage to evade the IRS or not.  Any business or citizen within the U.S. does fall into their jurisdiction by simple definition of the word.  Whether this is a just system may be debatable, but that is reality.

You are confusing the ability to hide your assets with the legality of hiding your assets.  I'd be interested to find out how you feel about big business.  Since you are advocating the same kind of money harboring to escape fiscal responsibility brought upon by offshore banking.  Double standard much?

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  • Illegal activities are your own business and if you want to engage in said activities it's not the transaction processors liability that comes under question - do you think Bank Of America gets raided every time some drug dealer takes money out of the ATM?

Bank of America is not held liable because they 'know their customers.' eGold on the other hand, did get shut down for the illegal transactions of their clients. Your example is a situation of 'Exception proves the rule.' BofA and Chase and USBank and etc and etc and etc of all legally functioning banks who know who own every account.

Above all you are mistaking the fact that BTC is not a USA currency and does not fall under any of its laws. You're assuming everyone in this discussion is in America? Come on man.

E-Gold is one example of your US Laws but it is not canonical and certainly does not apply to the whole global use of BTC. Sure you may know one business or two or however many that won't do business without identity tracking but one of the main goals of BTC is the lack of identity required to operate transactions. You seem like you are hard up to make BTC another USD or Euro but it isn't and it never will be. If you want the requirements you're bantering on about you should go elsewhere because BTC will never fit that mold.

As to IRS and income reporting - the IRS doesn't give a shit about BTC. If I change it into USD and put it in my US bank account that might be one thing - but I'll repeat myself and remind you that I do not and am never required to do anything with a bank account to use my BTC funds. That is the beauty of BTC - I can buy sell, purchase, and trade goods and services for/with BTC without any interaction with any government backed currency.

Done and done.

<luke-jr> Catholics do not believe in freedom of religion.
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kjj
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August 12, 2011, 05:31:50 AM
 #122

In short, if Flexcoin is a "Money Transmitting Business" under US law, then we all are too.

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August 12, 2011, 05:39:17 AM
 #123

In short, if Flexcoin is a "Money Transmitting Business" under US law, then we all are too.

Simple solution: incorporate outside the USA. No one says being under the realm of USA laws in a requirement or a benefit to anything BTC related. If anything it's a benefit to not be, given the rapid economic failure of the USA and the downturn of physical and online privacy.

<luke-jr> Catholics do not believe in freedom of religion.
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August 12, 2011, 05:42:41 AM
 #124

No, I mean "all of us".  Not just US corporations, not just US businesses, not just US citizens.  All of us.

Read 31 CFR 103 and USC 1960 again.

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August 12, 2011, 05:48:39 AM
 #125

No, I mean "all of us".  Not just US corporations, not just US businesses, not just US citizens.  All of us.

Read 31 CFR 103 and USC 1960 again.

ALL OF US as in the USA - those laws only apply to Citizens. So... I mean correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm am fairly certain that the USA isn't going after BTC users and businesses in the Ukraine, Iran, Spain, Brazil, etc etc etc etc. The USA might have a law against <insert whatever> but that doesn't apply elsewhere unless it's under an international treaty that is abided by in the country of the user.

Why the USA centrism here guys? Not everyone lives where you live. And don't even start telling me that you believe the IRS is going to go after a BTC user in Iran or China or anywhere else. BTC isn't even a big deal yet and you're all worried about taxes. Give me a break.

<luke-jr> Catholics do not believe in freedom of religion.
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August 12, 2011, 06:11:54 AM
 #126

Above all you are mistaking the fact that BTC is not a USA currency and does not fall under any of its laws. You're assuming everyone in this discussion is in America? Come on man.

Flexcoin is a US business and I'm a US citizen.  It's the only law that applies to me and the only law I'm concerned with.  It's not centrism, I'M ADDRESSING ISSUES THAT APPLY TO ME.  As I've pointed out, about 4 times now, 3 times in the thread you quoted (I believe I even emboldened it for you) that as far as the law is concerned, you do not need to be dealing is USD or ANY CURRENCY whatsoever to violate the laws. What part of that do you not understand.

If you want to talk about centrism, this is a U.S. issue.  If it bothers you too see U.S. issues talked about, get off your fucking computer and go outside and enjoy your own fucking perfect little nation.

Quote
E-Gold is one example of your US Laws but it is not canonical and certainly does not apply to the whole global use of BTC. Sure you may know one business or two or however many that won't do business without identity tracking but one of the main goals of BTC is the lack of identity required to operate transactions. You seem like you are hard up to make BTC another USD or Euro but it isn't and it never will be. If you want the requirements you're bantering on about you should go elsewhere because BTC will never fit that mold.

I'm not asking anything of BTC, Flexcoin is NOT BITCOIN. You are severely confused about what system I am critical of.  Bitcoin is awesome and is implemented in a way that you are not, in fact, using a service, but a product.  The product cannot be held accountable for how it is used, only the end users. Flexcoin is a BTC transferring service, an eWallet that lets you transfer money internally to other users, a 'money transferring business'.

Quote
As to IRS and income reporting - the IRS doesn't give a shit about BTC. If I change it into USD and put it in my US bank account that might be one thing - but I'll repeat myself and remind you that I do not and am never required to do anything with a bank account to use my BTC funds. That is the beauty of BTC - I can buy sell, purchase, and trade goods and services for/with BTC without any interaction with any government backed currency.

Done and done.

If you don't think the IRS gives a shit about Bitcoin, try putting a few million dollars into BTC and explain to the IRS where the money went when they come audit you for it.  Once again you are confusing what you can get away with, with what is in fact legal.  You fuck up big enough and somebody will pay attention.

In short, if Flexcoin is a "Money Transmitting Business" under US law, then we all are too.

I don't believe so Kjj (but I'm not a lawyer so this is just my hopes and faith here.), I believe unless we incorporate, Bitcoiners are implementing a distributed product with an assumed value.  Each of us are responsible for our share of the product.  Each of us are individually responsible for complying with the laws in our jurisdictions at our own risk.  One of us committing a crime, like running an unlicensed 'Money Transmitting Business' does not indict the rest of us.  Unless BTC itself is found to be illegal, any number of illegal operations can utilize it without directly harming the BTC community as a whole.

As for all this business about anonymity.  You can be as anonymous as you want if you use your own goddamn wallet.  If you use your own Goddamn wallet then you are entitled to do whatever the fuck you want.  The moment you start trying to take responsibility for other people's money, or you want somebody else to take responsibility for your money, you need to know who you are working with.  It's not just the law, in plain f- common sense.

BTC is awesome, it allows us to escape issues caused by fiat currency, big banks, and government restrictions on international trade, and a variety of other controversial strengths for the moment.  It has many strengths, but your Utopian bias for Anarchy is blinding you to the reality of the world today.  

If BTC is going to bring about an anarchist market, it will have to be fought for.  Don't expect Satoshi's protocol to magically make the governments go away.

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August 12, 2011, 06:36:57 AM
 #127

Again, it seems clear from the e-gold wiki (which you linked to in this thread) its pretty clear the owners of egold KNEW what was going on and knowingly told the users in question ways to avoid the law.  I'm really not sure why you keep trying to apply that circumstance to flexcoin...
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August 12, 2011, 07:04:46 AM
 #128

Because that was simply an extraneous fact/evidence that made their indictment easier to obtain.  The ruling did not even mention it.  The ruling is the precedent, how evidence that Flex users are 'committing criminal actions' comes about are variable.  It could be, one day, that someone in Flex finds out about the criminal actions of one account, or some drug dealer gets busted and their smart phone has e-mails to his buddy detailing what account to get into for his money.  It doesn't matter, it's all evidence towards the same result.  'Know your customer' laws are akin to taking 'every reasonable action' to prevent harm to the consumer.  You forget to ice your parking lot and you are liable for their resulting injuries.  You refuse to 'know your customer' then you are liable for foreseeable crimes committed using your service.

Edited- To explain how the eGold situation applies a little more specifically.

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August 12, 2011, 11:03:34 AM
 #129

Normal banks charge no transaction fee, although I accept that they make their money from debt and the concept of debt does not really exist with Bitcoin (yet).

Even still, 0.05% transaction fee seems a little high, when holding my coins in flexcoin offers zero interest or any benefit over being slightly easier to use than Bitcoin. Seems like this is a good way to pay for nothing.

I'd prefer all bitcoin transactions to be free, and you make your money by buying and selling bitcoins for real world currency.
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August 12, 2011, 12:42:13 PM
 #130

I'd prefer all bitcoin transactions to be free, and you make your money by buying and selling bitcoins for real world currency.

Why are you under the impression that Bitcoin is about making money?

Amongst all the other things it is about, it's about not losing as much money as you usually do with various forms of transactions - most of which are hidden to you and "included" in the price you pay. With Bitcoin as the transaction medium, that price will be lower.

FlexCoin promises even lower (and faster) transactions.

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August 12, 2011, 01:47:39 PM
 #131

I agree, which is why placing a tax on transactions is so unwelcome.

I'd rather pay 1BTC up front for my account and then all transactions are free.
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August 12, 2011, 02:40:50 PM
 #132

Kudos for building a useful tool and moving bitcoin forward. With all the stuff that's happened as of late, I will be keeping my bitcoins under the mattress awhile longer.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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August 12, 2011, 05:35:09 PM
 #133

Even if the accounts have 'secret' nicknames I can look at all the nicknames and balances, send a tiny amount ot someone, and then look at the 'secret' nicknames again and find out which is theres. multiple secret nicknames gets around this but I do not want to have to bother setting that up.

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August 12, 2011, 05:47:07 PM
 #134

Even if the accounts have 'secret' nicknames I can look at all the nicknames and balances, send a tiny amount ot someone, and then look at the 'secret' nicknames again and find out which is theres. multiple secret nicknames gets around this but I do not want to have to bother setting that up.

You are assuming the report is done in real time, which isn't necessary for the security of the system.

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August 13, 2011, 12:19:31 AM
 #135

Even if the accounts have 'secret' nicknames I can look at all the nicknames and balances, send a tiny amount ot someone, and then look at the 'secret' nicknames again and find out which is theres. multiple secret nicknames gets around this but I do not want to have to bother setting that up.

lathomas64, in the best practice example I gave in my post #113, I have exactly explained why this is NOT so! The list is not published in real time, but only once a day *at most* (or even once a week)!! This way, it is not possible by an outside "curious attacker" to find out which secret name belongs to you! just read my post #113, and you will understand everything.

Moreover, you do not have to "bother setting that up". If you like, this can be a one-time action when you create your account, that's all. Only if you want a paranoid amount of camouflage, you may want to regularly change your secret nicknames (secret IDs), but also this can be automized to bother you only at minimum. If you are really so concerned about your annonymity, you should not use bitcoin, because even with bitcoin itself it IS possible to re-engineer cash flows between bitcoin addresses and thereby see where bitcoins come from and where they go. also this is not 100% annonymous, as it is said in most descriptions.

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August 15, 2011, 05:17:05 AM
 #136

@the founder (FlexCoin), I have an idea for you. You could create two kinds of accounts for each user. Let's say, one savings account and one everyday account. The savings account already exists (generates interest, but has a withdrawal fee) and it would be used mainly for long term storage. The everyday account would generate lower insterest (or no interest at all) and have much lower fees.

I think people are afraid to use flexcoin for frequent payments because there are withdrawal fees. Most of us like to keep a few BTC at hand and there aren't many ewallets alternatives since the mybitcoin case.

It's just an idea. This would make your website a little more complicated and you might not want to implement such functionality. But think about it... Wink
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August 15, 2011, 05:40:08 AM
 #137

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"a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

Consider this... in the USA gold/silver is money, gold/silver coin is lawful money. Silver coin is currency. Coins and bank notes are cash and currency. So you can transfer gold bullion (a type of money) without transferring currency, cash or bank money. Bank money is not currency, it's a currency equivalent. US savings bonds are not cash or currency. You could trade US savings bonds and be money transmitting. If you did the same with barrels of oil you would not be transmitting money! Hopefully, you get the point.

Under USA law, Canadian Law, UK Law, Euro Law, Iranian Law, Chinese Law, Indian Law it's not clear what Bitcoin is. But anyone claiming it's legally money is just guessing and/or hoping.


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August 15, 2011, 08:33:59 PM
 #138

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"a business can clearly engage in money transmitting without limiting its transactions to cash or currency and would commit a crime if it did so without being licensed." UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. E-GOLD, LTD

Consider this... in the USA gold/silver is money, gold/silver coin is lawful money. Silver coin is currency. Coins and bank notes are cash and currency. So you can transfer gold bullion (a type of money) without transferring currency, cash or bank money. Bank money is not currency, it's a currency equivalent. US savings bonds are not cash or currency. You could trade US savings bonds and be money transmitting. If you did the same with barrels of oil you would not be transmitting money! Hopefully, you get the point.

Under USA law, Canadian Law, UK Law, Euro Law, Iranian Law, Chinese Law, Indian Law it's not clear what Bitcoin is. But anyone claiming it's legally money is just guessing and/or hoping.

You're not a lawyer, and that did not make sense to quote the ruling and try to contradict it with that nonsense.  What do you think a US court of law is going to say about bitcoin when it finally comes up? I doubt they'll compare it to something that industrial use like oil, or even gold.  Bitcoin's only purpose is as a currency, and a judge isn't gonna be stupid about it, just because the U.S. Government doesn't recognize it for trade.

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August 16, 2011, 12:31:53 AM
 #139

I like what Flexcoin is doing and I will use it and ask that my customers do so as well. Thank you for the service. I believe many users in this thread have good ideas that need to be considered and I'm really attracted to the way you seem to LISTEN. So keep up the good work flexcoin team.
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August 16, 2011, 03:34:25 PM
 #140

I like what Flexcoin is doing and I will use it and ask that my customers do so as well. Thank you for the service. I believe many users in this thread have good ideas that need to be considered and I'm really attracted to the way you seem to LISTEN. So keep up the good work flexcoin team.

We're trying Smiley


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