Transparent mining, or What makes Nxt a 2nd generation currency

[dE_logics]

"Outside the network", do you mean the block chain cannot be forked?

I mean that unlike ASICs, that can be created by someone, noone can create NXT coins (which r like ASICs in PoS currency) and bring them into the system.

But we were talking about 51% attacks here. You mean the mining system is such that the block chain cannot be forked?

Mining and owning BTC are two separate activities.  In Nxt they are not.  Assuming Nxt works as advertised double spends appear to be impossible.

See the question is how. Assuming an attack is 91%; suppose someone owns 95% coins, how will he not be able to create a forked chain which double spends coins?

[dE_logics]

Also can you explain 'base target'?

[User705]

"Outside the network", do you mean the block chain cannot be forked?

I mean that unlike ASICs, that can be created by someone, noone can create NXT coins (which r like ASICs in PoS currency) and bring them into the system.

But we were talking about 51% attacks here. You mean the mining system is such that the block chain cannot be forked?

Mining and owning BTC are two separate activities.  In Nxt they are not.  Assuming Nxt works as advertised double spends appear to be impossible.

See the question is how. Assuming an attack is 91%; suppose someone owns 95% coins, how will he not be able to create a forked chain which double spends coins?

If he spends them how will he mine the next blocks?

[dE_logics]

"Outside the network", do you mean the block chain cannot be forked?

I mean that unlike ASICs, that can be created by someone, noone can create NXT coins (which r like ASICs in PoS currency) and bring them into the system.

But we were talking about 51% attacks here. You mean the mining system is such that the block chain cannot be forked?

Mining and owning BTC are two separate activities.  In Nxt they are not.  Assuming Nxt works as advertised double spends appear to be impossible.

See the question is how. Assuming an attack is 91%; suppose someone owns 95% coins, how will he not be able to create a forked chain which double spends coins?

If he spends them how will he mine the next blocks?

He'll not spend them, he'll hold them and use to create a forked block chain with false transactions (double spending the transactions which resulted in 95% of coins being with him).

[User705]

Perhaps CfB can give an answer to that question.  I don't see how you can make a double spend with pure PoS but I'm no expert.

[Come-from-Beyond]

See the question is how. Assuming an attack is 91%; suppose someone owns 95% coins, how will he not be able to create a forked chain which double spends coins?

He will be able to do that.

PS: I can't get what the problem with "Outside the network". Could u paraphrase the question, please?

[dE_logics]

See the question is how. Assuming an attack is 91%; suppose someone owns 95% coins, how will he not be able to create a forked chain which double spends coins?

He will be able to do that.

PS: I can't get what the problem with "Outside the network". Could u paraphrase the question, please?

You said --

The 2nd scenario can't be applied to Nxt, coz no NXTs exist outside the network. Let's look closer at the 1st scenario.

The 2nd scenario can be applied by someone possessing 91% or more of coins; this's similar to having a lot of 'mining equipment' or tools to mine coins. For Bitcoins it's ASIC miners, for Litecoins it's the graphics cards, for Quarks it's the CPU and for for PPcoin and NXT it's the currency themselves.

[dE_logics]

Perhaps CfB can give an answer to that question.  I don't see how you can make a double spend with pure PoS but I'm no expert.

Oh, yes you can. And it's not that hard (for regular PoS coins, not this one).

You need to run a full node in order for the wallet to mine blocks based on PoS and it should be up always; how many people will do that? (especially when the interest rate is low)? When these coins will be made popular, 90% people will run paper wallets giving power to the hands of these 10%; thus an attack may not be that hard to do.

[Come-from-Beyond]

See the question is how. Assuming an attack is 91%; suppose someone owns 95% coins, how will he not be able to create a forked chain which double spends coins?

He will be able to do that.

PS: I can't get what the problem with "Outside the network". Could u paraphrase the question, please?

You said --

The 2nd scenario can't be applied to Nxt, coz no NXTs exist outside the network. Let's look closer at the 1st scenario.

The 2nd scenario can be applied by someone possessing 91% or more of coins; this's similar to having a lot of 'mining equipment' or tools to mine coins. For Bitcoins it's ASIC miners, for Litecoins it's the graphics cards, for Quarks it's the CPU and for for PPcoin and NXT it's the currency themselves.

I meant that unlike Bitcoin et all. noone could bring extra mining power from outside.

[2Kool4Skewl]

It would be very difficult to obtain over 90% of Nxt.  No more Nxt will ever be created and not very many people are selling.

[dE_logics]

I know.

I was just clarifying.

So let's move on to the next question.

[dE_logics]

Also can you explain 'base target'?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Also can you explain 'base target'?

Base target is a quotient that shows current difficulty. Each miners has a target that equals to BaseTarget*Balance.

[dE_logics]

Also can you explain 'base target'?

Base target is a quotient that shows current difficulty. Each miners has a target that equals to BaseTarget*Balance.

So the incentive to mining blocks is the transaction fee.

Like with regular PoS, the more coins you hold for a longer period, the more the chance of mining a block.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Like with regular PoS, the more coins you hold for a longer period, the more the chance of mining a block.

No. Ur algo is flawed. BCNext used other algo.

[dE_logics]

Like with regular PoS, the more coins you hold for a longer period, the more the chance of mining a block.

No. Ur algo is flawed. BCNext used other algo.

Then can someone please explain?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Then can someone please explain?

Ur chance to forge a block depends on BaseTarget (which is the same for all), TimeSinceLastBlock (which is the same for all) and ur account balance:

Code:

Chance = BaseTarget * TimeSinceLastBlock * Balance

[dE_logics]

Then can someone please explain?

Ur chance to forge a block depends on BaseTarget (which is the same for all), TimeSinceLastBlock (which is the same for all) and ur account balance:

Code:

Chance = BaseTarget * TimeSinceLastBlock * Balance

Ok, it does not depend on how long you old the coins.

On what basis will the difficulty increase? May large holders of the coin?

[Cryddit]

The difficulty would just need to be proportional to the number of coins being used for mining.  Anyway, it doesn't probably need to adjust more than once per a long enough period for the money supply to change significantly.  The description is that the factor due to time since the last block is exponential - ie, it doubles once a minute or something like that.  So even if there's twice as many coins being used for mining, block times only get one minute shorter.   And even if 75% of the coins used for mining are taken offline, the block times would get only two minutes longer. 

There's probably no real need for difficulty to change more often than new versions of the client come out.  That said, there may be a feedback mechanism that does the difficulty changes built-in, but I wouldn't worry if there isn't.

[dE_logics]

Thanks for the explanation.

Yesterday the average base target was ~700%. This means that only 1/7 of all stakeholders were generating blocks, we can't say if the rest 6/7 were hit by bus or trying to fork Nxt blockchain.

This means that with increasing difficulty, instead of reducing the probability of the low valued stake holders to mine blocks, the algorithm cuts off their chance of mining the blocks completely. Now with difficulty 700% (e.g.), only 1/7th of the total coin holders who have the maximum held coins will be able to generate a block. The algorithm cuts out the 6/7th cause they don't have enough balance.

The list of the top 1/7th holder of coins can be generated and so the future miner of the block can be predicted.

Is this correct?