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Author Topic: Bitcoin is not scarce.  (Read 4423 times)
porc
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December 11, 2013, 01:47:52 AM
 #1

I have just realised that I have made one mistake in my bitcoin cant be money thread. I assumed that bitcoin, despite having no intrinsic value/utility on its own, is scarce. Bitcoin is not scarce as it has no value. To understand this lets look at the term scarcity.

Scarcity is the fundamental economic problem of having seemingly unlimited human wants and needs in a world of limited resources. It states that society has insufficient productive resources to fulfill all human wants and needs. WIKI

Now already we have a problem. Bitcoin is not a resource that fullfills human wants. Dumping it on the next guy is not fullfilling a want if the other guy doesnt want bitcoin for itself but is also looking to dump it on the next fool. I have shown in the other thread that because nobody wants bitcoin for itself as it has no utility/ intrinsic value it cant be money.

Now if bitcoin does no fullfill a want, it cant be a resource. If its not a resource its not scarce.

For example: If we divide one ounce of gold by two we have two 1/2 ounces. Now 1/2 an ounce has half as much intrinsic value, as I can decorate only half as many objects. I can use only half as much for industrial production.

Now if we halve bitcoin the intrinsic value is still 0. 1/2 Bitcoin is as valuable as 1 Bitcoin as both have 0 value.

If I could divide a real resource like bread and the two parts where as valuable/ had as much utility as the whole, I could solve world hunger by dividing bread to infinty. We could say that bread is not scarce in this case.

Thus dividing bitcoin creates more of them from a value perspective.

Now it doesnt matter because infinte nothing is still nothing. The number of bitcoin is totally irrellevant as bitcoin has 0 value. 60 million times 0 is 0. 100 million  times 0 is still 0.

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December 11, 2013, 01:53:57 AM
 #2

I am absolutely not kidding when I say I'll buy all of your Bitcoins for 20$.

You get something for giving me nothing.

Take it or leave it.

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December 11, 2013, 01:55:35 AM
 #3

I have just realised that I have made one mistake in my bitcoin cant be money thread. I assumed that bitcoin, despite having no intrinsic value/utility on its own, is scarce. Bitcoin is not scarce as it has no value. To understand this lets look at the term scarcity.

Scarcity is the fundamental economic problem of having seemingly unlimited human wants and needs in a world of limited resources. It states that society has insufficient productive resources to fulfill all human wants and needs. WIKI

Now already we have a problem. Bitcoin is not a resource that fullfills human wants. Dumping it on the next guy is not fullfilling a want if the other guy doesnt want bitcoin for itself but is also looking to dump it on the next fool. I have shown in the other thread that because nobody wants bitcoin for itself as it has no utility/ intrinsic value it cant be money.

Now if bitcoin does no fullfill a want, it cant be a resource. If its not a resource its not scarce.

For example: If we divide one ounce of gold by two we have two 1/2 ounces. Now 1/2 an ounce has half as much intrinsic value, as I can decorate only half as many objects. I can use only valf as much for industrial production.

Now if we halve bitcoin the intrinsic value is still 0. 1/2 Bitcoin is as valuable as 1 Bitcoin as both have 0 value.

If I could divide a real resource like bread and the two parts where as valuable/ had as much utility as the whole, I could solve world hunger by dividing bread to infinty. We could say that bread is not scarce in this case.

Thus dividing bitcoin creates more of them from a value perspective.

Now it doesnt matter because infinte nothing is still nothing. The number of bitcoin is totally irrellevant as bitcoin has 0 value. 60 million times 0 is 0. 100 million  times 0 is still 0.



Youre an idiot dude. If bitcoin were still 5 dollars a coin, there would be no bitcoin available, and thats why the price keep going up. Thats scarcity dumbass. Because people want bitcoin, they just cant afford it anymore. You sound like an idiot and youre on a Pro bitcoin forum...get a life, youre out of your league
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December 11, 2013, 01:56:15 AM
 #4

No, give me your worthless bitcoins.
I'll send you a loaf of bread.
Good deal, eh? Hurry up before I realize how much you're ripping me off.
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December 11, 2013, 02:12:50 AM
 #5

This is at least your 3rd troll post in 2 days - moron.
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December 11, 2013, 02:30:48 AM
 #6

I have just realised that I have made one mistake in my bitcoin cant be money thread. I assumed that bitcoin, despite having no intrinsic value/utility on its own, is scarce. Bitcoin is not scarce as it has no value. To understand this lets look at the term scarcity.

Scarcity is the fundamental economic problem of having seemingly unlimited human wants and needs in a world of limited resources. It states that society has insufficient productive resources to fulfill all human wants and needs. WIKI

Now already we have a problem. Bitcoin is not a resource that fullfills human wants. Dumping it on the next guy is not fullfilling a want if the other guy doesnt want bitcoin for itself but is also looking to dump it on the next fool. I have shown in the other thread that because nobody wants bitcoin for itself as it has no utility/ intrinsic value it cant be money.

Now if bitcoin does no fullfill a want, it cant be a resource. If its not a resource its not scarce.

For example: If we divide one ounce of gold by two we have two 1/2 ounces. Now 1/2 an ounce has half as much intrinsic value, as I can decorate only half as many objects. I can use only half as much for industrial production.

Now if we halve bitcoin the intrinsic value is still 0. 1/2 Bitcoin is as valuable as 1 Bitcoin as both have 0 value.

If I could divide a real resource like bread and the two parts where as valuable/ had as much utility as the whole, I could solve world hunger by dividing bread to infinty. We could say that bread is not scarce in this case.

Thus dividing bitcoin creates more of them from a value perspective.

Now it doesnt matter because infinte nothing is still nothing. The number of bitcoin is totally irrellevant as bitcoin has 0 value. 60 million times 0 is 0. 100 million  times 0 is still 0.



Here are a few problems:

1. Why we all agree on this forum fiat money has no intrinsic value, virtually all economists believe fiat money has value because it is backed by a government. The US dollar is the petrodollar, and is essentially the reserve currency of the world because oil is bought and sold in US dollars. This is coming to an end. You can knock fiat currency as worthless or suggest they only have value at the barrel of a gun, but the fact remains fiat has value because the market assigns to them value.

2. If Bitcoin has no value because it is only bought to be dumped to the next guy, please explain the following:

2a. Why do some people buy Bitcoin and store it, instead of dumping?

2b. If exchangers sell bitcoins for fiat money, because bitcoin is worthless for anything other than dumping, why do these exchangers store thousands and thousands of coins in their wallets and valuts? Why are they buying bitcoins and saving them?

2c. If dumping bitcoins on the next guy is the only reason to buy bitcoins in the first place, and this is a sign that bitcoin has no value, then why do people speculate on precious metals, only to dump them for fiat currency? By your argument, dumping something on others makes is valueless. And yet, precious metals markets are full of the same exact speculation of pumping and dumping and saving.

2d, Why would anyone buy precious metals with intrinsic value and then sell them for worthless fiat currency? Do they have a clue? Or is it because the market assigns to fiat currencies a certain value and gold and silver needs to be liquidated in order to be used?
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December 11, 2013, 02:48:13 AM
 #7

Price != Value   

Markets only discover and assign prices to things, they can not create or assign value, that is left to the individual.  The individual who substitutes the market price for his own due-diligence at value assessment is a fool, the individual who can not understand the difference is an idiot.

porc:  I feel your pain debating these morons, though I may not agree with all that you have to say it has got to be depressing for you.

With regard to scarcity, what I think people have generally meant by scarcity is market-scarcity, that their are sufficiently few coins on the market that exchange rates are driven up.  Also I think this is one need that BTC fulfills, much like a lottery ticket it fulfills people psychological greedy desire for fantastic unearned wealth, it's the need to cling on to some tangible object of hope for the future to ease ones present misery, gold has been serving much the same function for sometime now with a dedicated libertarian-goldbug crowd.  Their are also various anti-government anti-banking ideological positions that most BTC holders are trying to affirm.  BTC can essentially be seen as a kind of cult-sacrament by which the members affirm their faith not just in BTC itself but in the 'inevitable downfall' of things like the USD (these forums have been predicting it's imminent demise for years now).

 
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Reece523
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December 11, 2013, 03:01:25 AM
 #8

Some people do want bitcoin for itself -- e.g. some people purchase Casascius bitcoins for a premium over the going rate and some of the rarer Casascius bitcoins carry even larger premiums.

Bitcoin isn't just a cryptocurrency. Owning a bitcoin is, for some people, a statement of who they are and what they stand for, as Impaler made mention of.
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December 11, 2013, 05:08:06 AM
 #9

1. Why we all agree on this forum fiat money has no intrinsic value, virtually all economists believe fiat money has value because it is backed by a government. The US dollar is the petrodollar, and is essentially the reserve currency of the world because oil is bought and sold in US dollars. This is coming to an end. You can knock fiat currency as worthless or suggest they only have value at the barrel of a gun, but the fact remains fiat has value because the market assigns to them value.

There is a difference between intrinsic value and utility. Fiat money does indeed have utility because it is the required form of payment of taxes. Try paying your taxes with anything other than fiat and see what happens. That's a significant utility since it keeps you out of prison.

2. If Bitcoin has no value because it is only bought to be dumped to the next guy, please explain the following:

2a. Why do some people buy Bitcoin and store it, instead of dumping?

2b. If exchangers sell bitcoins for fiat money, because bitcoin is worthless for anything other than dumping, why do these exchangers store thousands and thousands of coins in their wallets and valuts? Why are they buying bitcoins and saving them?

Everybody that is speculating on bitcoin holds it for the same reason - greed. Why sell at $900 if I think I can hold just a bit longer till it hits $1,000, or $1,200 or maybe even $10,000.

2c. If dumping bitcoins on the next guy is the only reason to buy bitcoins in the first place, and this is a sign that bitcoin has no value, then why do people speculate on precious metals, only to dump them for fiat currency? By your argument, dumping something on others makes is valueless. And yet, precious metals markets are full of the same exact speculation of pumping and dumping and saving.

Precious metals like gold and silver have an economic utility, so there will always be underlying value beneath and speculatory price. If you read something like Security Analysis or Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham (Warren Buffets mentor) you'll see they do a good job of explaining the difference between price and value, and how the markets will often have the price of something wrong in relation to its actual value. When something is underpriced (the price is less than the underlying value, you should buy). When something is overpriced, you should sell. However, you will never be able to successfully time the markets so it's wise to avoid speculating.

2d, Why would anyone buy precious metals with intrinsic value and then sell them for worthless fiat currency? Do they have a clue? Or is it because the market assigns to fiat currencies a certain value and gold and silver needs to be liquidated in order to be used?

Again, fiat currency is the only accepted method of paying your taxes and if you don't pay your taxes guys with guns will try to take you away. There is a lot of value in that.
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December 11, 2013, 05:31:58 AM
 #10

OP you're technically correct and another bright post. However, i think your explanation would be way too complex for the layperson.

A less complicated and more effective way to debunk the scarcity BS is to point out how you can pick up other digital coins that serve the exact same purpose. Peer-to-peer. Same properties. Same technology. Except you only have to pay 30 bucks, not a thousand. There is nothing bitcoin can do that litecoin cant.

You're already starting to see on the alternate coin board the bitcoin cultists panicking to discredit alt-coins. They know this a huge threat. Shall be interesting...
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December 11, 2013, 05:44:36 AM
 #11

OP you're technically correct and another bright post. However, i think your explanation would be way too complex for the layperson.

A less complicated and more effective way to debunk the scarcity BS is to point out how you can pick up other digital coins that serve the exact same purpose. Peer-to-peer. Same properties. Same technology. Except you only have to pay 30 bucks, not a thousand. There is nothing bitcoin can do that litecoin cant.

You're already starting to see on the alternate coin board the bitcoin cultists panicking to discredit alt-coins. They know this a huge threat. Shall be interesting...

Oh so you've read his other posts, and agree with him, that's good. The one where he says gold has value because "its pretty" and therefore bitcoin has no value because its "not pretty". Since litecoin is also "not pretty", we must therefore assume you must agree litecoin has no value either.

"Way too complex for the layperson", LMAO. No, its just "way too long and full of trollspeak". Very nice of you to condescend though. I'm sure litecoin is capable of many things, as are a dozen other "wanna be" altcoins, and a hundred yet to be invented that will also fail.
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December 11, 2013, 07:53:46 AM
 #12

As Peter Lambert wrote, we can keep feeding the troll indefinitely.

porc is the most long-winded troll I have ever seen.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364207.msg3894141#msg3894141

You are a troll because you keep asking the same questions and ignoring the answers you get. You are a troll because you ask questions not to get the answer, but to get other people worked up. That is pretty much the definition of trolling.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364207.msg3906944#msg3906944
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December 11, 2013, 08:28:53 AM
Last edit: December 11, 2013, 08:41:48 AM by deisik
 #13

This guy has been registered since April 13, 2013, and became active only a few days ago. His only post on his first day here is quite different in spirit and style from what we see right now (you can judge for yourself in his profile). He has written some valuable piece of information at the end of that post which I cite below

Quote
Diclosure: I own a substantial position in silver miners and like gold as well as silver. I am a follower of austrian school of economics. I hate fiat currencies and maybe want to buy some bitcoins in case they overtake gold as a medium of exchange. However I still have the concerns mentioned above.

No follower of the Austrian school of economics could produce these piles of garbage he spouts out now. And in his second post more than half a year later he writes that he is "new to Bitcoin" (note the case of the first letter here and in the quote). You guess what this all means...

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empoweoqwj
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December 11, 2013, 08:42:48 AM
 #14

This guy has been registered since April 13, 2013, and became active only a few days ago. His only post on his first day here is quite different in spirit from what we see right now (you can judge for yourself in his profile). He has written some valuable piece of information at the end of that post which I cite below

Quote
Diclosure: I own a substantial position in silver miners and like gold as well as silver. I am a follower of austrian school of economics. I hate fiat currencies and maybe want to buy some bitcoins in case they overtake gold as a medium of exchange. However I still have the concerns mentioned above.

No follower of the Austrian school of economics could produce these piles of garbage. And his second post more than half a year later he writes he is "new to Bitcoin" (note the case of the first letter here and in the quote). You guess what this all means...

I'm intrigued. What does it mean, somebody bought his acccount? He lost all his bitcoins when his hard drive crashed and went postal? He got abducted by aliens and replaced by a different entity? Please enlighten me  Smiley
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December 11, 2013, 08:44:14 AM
 #15

I'm intrigued. What does it mean, somebody bought his acccount? He lost all his bitcoins when his hard drive crashed and went postal? He got abducted by aliens and replaced by a different entity? Please enlighten me  Smiley

Usually this means that the account has been taken over. Why would anyone want to break into someone else's account?

.WOLF.BET.
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..CHAT RAIN.............
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December 11, 2013, 08:48:40 AM
 #16

I'm intrigued. What does it mean, somebody bought his acccount? He lost all his bitcoins when his hard drive crashed and went postal? He got abducted by aliens and replaced by a different entity? Please enlighten me  Smiley

Usually this means that the account has been taken over...

OK gotcha. In that case, more likely hacked than purchased. Nobody would purchase an account just to write that drivel.
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December 11, 2013, 10:23:59 AM
Last edit: December 11, 2013, 10:46:39 AM by porc
 #17

This guy has been registered since April 13, 2013, and became active only a few days ago. His only post on his first day here is quite different in spirit from what we see right now (you can judge for yourself in his profile). He has written some valuable piece of information at the end of that post which I cite below

Quote
Diclosure: I own a substantial position in silver miners and like gold as well as silver. I am a follower of austrian school of economics. I hate fiat currencies and maybe want to buy some bitcoins in case they overtake gold as a medium of exchange. However I still have the concerns mentioned above.

No follower of the Austrian school of economics could produce these piles of garbage. And his second post more than half a year later he writes he is "new to Bitcoin" (note the case of the first letter here and in the quote). You guess what this all means...

I'm intrigued. What does it mean, somebody bought his acccount? He lost all his bitcoins when his hard drive crashed and went postal? He got abducted by aliens and replaced by a different entity? Please enlighten me  Smiley

Yes that was my first post after I heard about bitcoin. I didnt think much about it and already had concerns. Now that I have informed myself I hold the position that bitcoin is a pyramid with 0 value that cant be money.

Yes I do hold gold and silver as well as gold and silver miner, BECAUSE i think gold and silver is real money.

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December 11, 2013, 10:46:51 AM
 #18

I'm intrigued. What does it mean, somebody bought his acccount? He lost all his bitcoins when his hard drive crashed and went postal? He got abducted by aliens and replaced by a different entity? Please enlighten me  Smiley

Yes that was my first day after I heard about bitcoin. I didnt think much about it and already had concerns. Now that I have informed myself I hold the position that bitcoin is a pyramid with 0 value that cant be money.

Yes I do hold gold and silver as well as gold and silver miner, BECAUSE i think gold and silver is real money.

And now you came here to share with us the intimate knowledge revealed to you of how things actually stand with bitcoin? What is the real purpose of spouting all this drivel on us? Why the heck do you care? Are you scared by the fact that your shiny metals and miners are falling head to the ground and will ever continue to do so for the reason of bitcoin?

.WOLF.BET.
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December 11, 2013, 10:49:26 AM
 #19

I'm intrigued. What does it mean, somebody bought his acccount? He lost all his bitcoins when his hard drive crashed and went postal? He got abducted by aliens and replaced by a different entity? Please enlighten me  Smiley

Yes that was my first day after I heard about bitcoin. I didnt think much about it and already had concerns. Now that I have informed myself I hold the position that bitcoin is a pyramid with 0 value that cant be money.

Yes I do hold gold and silver as well as gold and silver miner, BECAUSE i think gold and silver is real money.

And now you came here to share with us your intimate knowledge of how things actually stand with bitcoin? What is the real  purpose of spouting all this drivel on us? Why the heck do you care? Are you scared by the fact that your shiny metals and miners are falling head to the ground and will ever continue to do so?

As I said: I hold a substantial position in silver (and some gold). I also hold a lot of gold and especially silver miners. Now obviously if you are invested in gold/silver, you better know and understand the alternatives. I wanted to share my thoughts, so you guys can appreciate the position of a extreme bear. Again I believe it is a pyramid scheme.
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December 11, 2013, 11:04:06 AM
 #20

And now you came here to share with us your intimate knowledge of how things actually stand with bitcoin? What is the real  purpose of spouting all this drivel on us? Why the heck do you care? Are you scared by the fact that your shiny metals and miners are falling head to the ground and will ever continue to do so?

As I said: I hold a substantial position in silver (and some gold). I also hold a lot of gold and especially silver miners. Now obviously if you are invested in gold/silver, you better know and understand the alternatives. I wanted to share my thoughts, so you guys can appreciate the position of a extreme bear. Again I believe it is a pyramid scheme.

This explains a lot. So you've been watching the rise of Bitcoin all that time (while gold and silver were heading down in scaringly wide strides) and kept on persuading yourself that it had no value... Now I understand you and the fact that you came here screaming aloud and blaming Bitcoin for your pains!

.WOLF.BET.
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██
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██
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██
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.AFFILIATE PROGRAM.
   ...FREE FAUCET........
..CHAT RAIN.............
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