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Author Topic: Bitcoin simply are not worth ($10 or $9 or $8)  (Read 6913 times)
the joint
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August 13, 2011, 08:07:55 PM
 #21

I fail to see how "ethics" applies to capitalism at all.  We are dealing with raw capitalism here, not your feelings.  If people can make money at it, they will do it.

I thought that too, but then I realized his ethical argument was tied into "too much fucking resource consumption."  In other words, he thinks its morally wrong to rape the planet of its resources for Bitcoins.

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August 13, 2011, 08:12:04 PM
 #22

I fail to see how "ethics" applies to capitalism at all.  We are dealing with raw capitalism here, not your feelings.  If people can make money at it, they will do it.

I thought that too, but then I realized his ethical argument was tied into "too much fucking resource consumption."  In other words, he thinks its morally wrong to rape the planet of its resources for Bitcoins.

That may or may not be, but that has zero effect on the price of BTC.

He means the electricity used in mining?  Jesus, that's a drop in the bucket compared to just about anything else.  The air conditioners in the USA right now, or driving to work, or all the TV's on right now in the USA alone.  Or the power used at Disneyland.

Get over it dude, you can pick on a million more important things.

Tree hugger.   Roll Eyes  (that last was a joke - Ridi seems kinds thick, so I wanted to make it explicit  Grin )

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the joint
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August 13, 2011, 08:27:30 PM
 #23

I fail to see how "ethics" applies to capitalism at all.  We are dealing with raw capitalism here, not your feelings.  If people can make money at it, they will do it.

I thought that too, but then I realized his ethical argument was tied into "too much fucking resource consumption."  In other words, he thinks its morally wrong to rape the planet of its resources for Bitcoins.

That may or may not be, but that has zero effect on the price of BTC.

He means the electricity used in mining?  Jesus, that's a drop in the bucket compared to just about anything else.  The air conditioners in the USA right now, or driving to work, or all the TV's on right now in the USA alone.  Or the power used at Disneyland.

Get over it dude, you can pick on a million more important things.

Tree hugger.   Roll Eyes  (that last was a joke - Ridi seems kinds thick, so I wanted to make it explicit  Grin )

Ya, and even if that were an issue, $10 per BTC is better than $2 or $3 per BTC since there's a higher appreciation of the resources used. 

On a side note, I thought that there's always a constant output of electricity in the power grid to prevent power shortages such that the output would always be the same regardless of miners had their GPUs running or not.  Or, is this extra energy simply recycled back into the grid?

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August 13, 2011, 08:30:27 PM
 #24

I realize this is on the FAQ, but when whining about power used to run the bitcoin network have you considered the power used to run banks?  The gasoline used by bank tellers to commute every day?  The amount of industrial waste generated when producing armored cars, credit cards, deposit slips and even uniforms and guns for police acting as a deterrent to bank robbery?

Bitcoins are by far the most eco-friendly currency at the moment.  The amount of resources to support the entire bitcoin network is could very well be less than the total carbon footprint of a *SINGLE* bank branch office let alone something like the Citibank headquarters.

If your argument boils down to being green then you'd be a completely "unethical" hypocrite if you didn't convert all your conventional currency into bitcoin this instant.
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August 13, 2011, 08:33:24 PM
 #25

I realize this is on the FAQ, but when whining about power used to run the bitcoin network have you considered the power used to run banks?  The gasoline used by bank tellers to commute every day?  The amount of industrial waste generated when producing armored cars, credit cards, deposit slips and even uniforms and guns for police acting as a deterrent to bank robbery?

Bitcoins are by far the most eco-friendly currency at the moment.  The amount of resources to support the entire bitcoin network is could very well be less than the total carbon footprint of a *SINGLE* bank branch office let alone something like the Citibank headquarters.

If your argument boils down to being green then you'd be a completely "unethical" hypocrite if you didn't convert all your conventional currency into bitcoin this instant.

Nice point.

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August 13, 2011, 10:02:18 PM
 #26

In essence I'm taking a Green stand on purchasing bitcoin.

Bitcoin is technology for the future, like the Internet was created and used by a rising number of people for several years before going fully mainstream.

If you count all the ways us humans produce energy today (fossil, wind, nuclear etc) that's still only 1/20000th (yes, really) of the energy that reaches earth from the sun alone, and we're well on our way to be able to use all that energy.

Now, there are two forms of Greens. Some are green, and happily cheer the above development. Some are in reality more like watermelons, red on the inside, and would rather like to stop all technological development.

Which category do you belong to?
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August 13, 2011, 11:33:19 PM
 #27

I don't use banks, I think bitcoin is awesome and makes far more sense than fiat. I'm just not going to offset miners costs when they system could run much more efficiently.  It's like paying a taxi to get you somewhere the longest way possible.  I still use BTC whenever I have the chance.  I just don't buy from miners.

You guys forgot to mention network security (look up the 51% attack) What is the cost of security and how do you even go about measuring it?

This is the only comment that added any value whatsoever to the notion that we should have as much Hashing power as we do.

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I don't support the artificial value of BTC, don't buy BTC at ridiculous prices.  Let Miners learn the lesson banks wouldn't.  The Supply has outgrown Dema
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August 13, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
 #28

The most efficient and 'green' means of exchange is straight bartering.  You don't get any more efficient than that.  And like I said, kiss global commerce goodbye.  This is a give and take problem allowing caveats for algae farms in the shorter term, and nuclear fusion in the longer term.

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August 14, 2011, 12:14:00 AM
 #29

BTC is worth whatever people want to pay for it, like everything else in a capitalistic society.

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August 14, 2011, 12:41:50 AM
 #30

What will make Bitcoin work is people setting up businesses and trading, hoarding and speculating will not attract the masses, they just want a simple cheap fast wayto buystuff, if they can stick two fingers up to the establishment at the same time that makes it more attractive.
Most people will not be interested in speculating.
Setting up businesses are the most important thing.

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Otoh
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August 14, 2011, 02:11:18 AM
 #31

....
...

I assume you take the same stand on banks and credit cards, right?

In my case that is a very safe assumption.  I do not do business with either, for many reasons.

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I don't support the artificial value of BTC, don't buy BTC at ridiculous prices.  Let Miners learn the lesson banks wouldn't.  The Supply has outgrown Dema

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August 14, 2011, 03:50:45 AM
 #32



You guys forgot to mention network security (look up the 51% attack) What is the cost of security and how do you even go about measuring it?

This is the only comment that added any value whatsoever to the notion that we should have as much Hashing power as we do.

Your argument is crap because you rely on "feelings" and "ethics" when human beings and the market are driven by pure capitalism and greed, especially where BTC is concerned.

You say we don't need so much hashing power, that we are wasting electricity with it.  I say I'm getting my mining proceeds and paying my power bill.

If there is money to be made, even a little, people will do it.  If there is not money to be made, people (probably) won't do it. (unless it's fun, and mining kinda is fun  Grin )

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August 14, 2011, 05:00:44 AM
 #33

I fail to see how "ethics" applies to capitalism at all.  We are dealing with raw capitalism here, not your feelings.  If people can make money at it, they will do it.

Capitalists will tell you that capitalism is based on ethics, that its the most ethical system.
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August 14, 2011, 06:42:02 AM
 #34

I've been reading this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=36687.0 [Reddit] The Real cost of Bitcoin? - Breaking Down the Math I agree with a few of the posters that the numbers are manipulated in the fact that the bitcoin system can handle many more transactions than what is currently used, without any increased overall cost, resulting in a decreased cost per transaction.

This highlights a problem with 'miners' though.  Their supply far exceeds the demand.  They have to consume massive resources in order to obtain the 50 BTC reward and in order to become profitable they need to sell BTC at gouged rate on the markets.  The plain fact of the matter is that BTC is not worth that much, and that much power is not necessary to sustain the system.

It's expected that after the mining pool is tapped at 21,000,000 BTC that the miners will hemorrhage unnecessary miners as supply falls to meet demand levels.  The current situation though is that as 'miners' pump more processing power into the pool, they will have to gouge the price of BTC to keep running at a profit.

Quite simply I don't think it's ethical to be purchasing BTC at these rates unless you have a legitimate need for them.  I also speculate that this will catch up with miners, they are essentially pegging the bitcoin to the electricity and equipment involved (not unreasonable) and then throwing in as much electricity and equipment as they can get their hands on (in essence, the decentralized bank can do stupid shit too when the buyers let it.)

Ridi, you are an idiot.  Allow me to explain.

1) There will not be 21 mil BTC until the 2030s. 
2) It's expected that at time, there will be 10% to 165% more idiots like you in the world.
3) this idea: ("['miners'] supply far exceeds demand" leading to "gouged rate on the markets") is one that only an idiot's brain could accommodate, let alone create.

Thank you. You're Welcome.

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August 16, 2011, 12:20:24 PM
 #35

Is this thread serious?

First, Bitcoin is worth whatever someone is willing to pay. Nothing more, nothing less.
Second, You're concerned about the pittance of electricity Bitcoin uses to secure it's network? Really?
Third, anytime you buy a Bitcoin, you're buying it from a miner. That's where they all came from.
Fourth, Go hug a tree, this has to be the stupidest thing I've seen in quite a while.

Miners do not control the price, buyers do. So shouldn't you be complaining about them that you can't buy Bitcoins cheap? That is what this comes down to, right?

Bitcoin: worse than man made *giggle* global warming!!

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April 21, 2015, 08:00:17 AM
 #36

I keep seeing trolls drag out the same dead argument, that the network and miners cannot support a price of $200 per coin, and once we bust that...  It's game over. 
 
Look at how stupid the person sounds who claims that the miners won't support prices of $10, $9, or $8.  That's how stupid the same arguments will sound in a few years about $200, $150, etc. 
 
As Mr Freeze above me said, it's the buyers who determine price, not the miners.

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April 21, 2015, 11:03:40 AM
 #37

I keep seeing trolls drag out the same dead argument, that the network and miners cannot support a price of $200 per coin, and once we bust that...  It's game over. 
 
Look at how stupid the person sounds who claims that the miners won't support prices of $10, $9, or $8.  That's how stupid the same arguments will sound in a few years about $200, $150, etc. 
 
As Mr Freeze above me said, it's the buyers who determine price, not the miners.

Always great to see these old threads. I agree mostly, but remain cautious because we can't know if we're really headed up in the long-term! We could very well still go down.
That being said: Keep in mind that the comments in this thread were made prior to the crash to almost below $1!!!

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April 21, 2015, 12:03:21 PM
 #38

I keep seeing trolls drag out the same dead argument, that the network and miners cannot support a price of $200 per coin, and once we bust that...  It's game over.  
  
Look at how stupid the person sounds who claims that the miners won't support prices of $10, $9, or $8.  That's how stupid the same arguments will sound in a few years about $200, $150, etc.  
  
As Mr Freeze above me said, it's the buyers who determine price, not the miners.

how, big farms can support single digit tells me? there is no way, they must shut down or reduce a large number of their power hashing, and at that point everyone will performs a 51%, the network will be too vulnerable and bitcoin will die

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April 21, 2015, 12:23:04 PM
 #39

I keep seeing trolls drag out the same dead argument, that the network and miners cannot support a price of $200 per coin, and once we bust that...  It's game over.  
  
Look at how stupid the person sounds who claims that the miners won't support prices of $10, $9, or $8.  That's how stupid the same arguments will sound in a few years about $200, $150, etc.  
  
As Mr Freeze above me said, it's the buyers who determine price, not the miners.

how, big farms can support single digit tells me? there is no way, they must shut down or reduce a large number of their power hashing, and at that point everyone will performs a 51%, the network will be too vulnerable and bitcoin will die

I'm really not afraid of all those 51% scenarios... Thing is: Bitcoin has always been a technology that's highly self-regulating. If the network hash rate goes down, it becomes profitable again for smaller miners, thus the networks remains secure, and vice-versa. It's kinda beautiful, actually!

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April 21, 2015, 12:52:04 PM
 #40

I keep seeing trolls drag out the same dead argument, that the network and miners cannot support a price of $200 per coin, and once we bust that...  It's game over.  
  
Look at how stupid the person sounds who claims that the miners won't support prices of $10, $9, or $8.  That's how stupid the same arguments will sound in a few years about $200, $150, etc.  
  
As Mr Freeze above me said, it's the buyers who determine price, not the miners.

how, big farms can support single digit tells me? there is no way, they must shut down or reduce a large number of their power hashing, and at that point everyone will performs a 51%, the network will be too vulnerable and bitcoin will die
 
 
Dude, what the fuck are you talking about?   
 
If everyone performs a 51% attack, IT'S NO LONGER A 51 % ATTACK!

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