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Author Topic: Bitcoin Common Law System  (Read 8439 times)
kiba
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February 23, 2011, 06:13:29 PM
 #1

A few disputes broke out over the last several weeks in area such as bankruptcy and suspected scamming. We don't have definite laws or procedure on how to deal with trespassers or processing evidence yet.

But I think a couple of details is emerging as far as law goes:

1. Bankrupted person will defer all payments to creditors and wronged parties for the amount that was owned.

2. Those who are suspected of scamming but protest their innocence could pay a 'fine' in case of damning evidence.

Those these laws are not definite as it need some more iteration and more testing to make it work.

I would give it a couple of 'court cases' before something good emerge.

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rebuilder
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February 23, 2011, 06:17:48 PM
 #2

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I put forth this link, which I believe is relevant:
The Common economic protocols

The main thing I'd like to point out here is: Any arbitration must take place with the prior consent of  all parties involved. Anything else is tyranny.

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February 23, 2011, 06:19:12 PM
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Uhm, why the hell would I pay a fine if I’m innocent, just because someone is accusing me? If I’m found to be guilty, I should pay back everything plus a fine though.

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kiba
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February 23, 2011, 06:20:58 PM
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Uhm, why the hell would I pay a fine if I’m innocent, just because someone is accusing me? If I’m found to be guilty, I should pay back everything plus a fine though.

The evidence was pretty damning but people offer to forget it. Nothing really happens so we don't know if that's a good law, not to mention we need several court cases to determine if it is a good law in the first place.

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February 23, 2011, 06:22:30 PM
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And about the first rule there, who will be giving the money if the person who owns money doesn't have any anymore?

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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February 23, 2011, 06:24:21 PM
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And about the first rule there, who will be giving the money if the person who owns money doesn't have any anymore?
No-one. The bankrupt party suffers a loss of trust.

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kiba
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February 23, 2011, 06:25:03 PM
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And about the first rule there, who will be giving the money if the person who owns money doesn't have any anymore?

Bad phrasing:

Bankrupted person will defer all payments to creditors and wronged parties.

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February 23, 2011, 06:27:28 PM
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The evidence was pretty damning but people offer to forget it. Nothing really happens so we don't know if that's a good law, not to mention we need several court cases to determine if it is a good law in the first place.
Do you refer to the case of the Russian scammer? Yeah, I think he should pay at least back everything (30 BTC left), as he’s either guilty or deeply involved with the guy who is. But I don’t know how you would want to determine guiltiness. By votes maybe?

I approve of the rephrased rule 1 by the way.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
kiba
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February 23, 2011, 06:28:46 PM
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The evidence was pretty damning but people offer to forget it. Nothing really happens so we don't know if that's a good law, not to mention we need several court cases to determine if it is a good law in the first place.
Do you refer to the case of the Russian scammer? Yeah, I think he should pay at least back everything (30 BTC left), as he’s either guilty or deeply involved with the guy who is. But I don’t know how you would want to determine guiltiness. By votes maybe?

I approve of the rephrased rule 1 by the way.

Who is allowed to vote?

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February 23, 2011, 06:31:56 PM
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Everyone? On what basis would you exclude anyone from voting?

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February 23, 2011, 06:34:05 PM
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I personally think the guilty party should be required to give up their favourite goat to the victims.

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kiba
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February 23, 2011, 06:39:50 PM
 #12

In my opinion, only the arbitrator in this case is allowed to make a decision after explaining his reasoning in a case essay.

Of course, you guys are welcome to try different systems such as democratic decision making, letting outsiders choose, and so on.

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February 23, 2011, 06:46:09 PM
 #13

What if some people ganged up and accused an innocent on an obscure matter? The way the first post is written sounds like guilty till paid otherwise....

Who's gonna be enforcing these kangaroo courts? And how would you propose that enforcement to be achieved with a money system that is designed for anonymity and no control of already performed transactions?

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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kiba
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February 23, 2011, 06:54:53 PM
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What if some people ganged up and accused an innocent on an obscure matter? The way the first post is written sounds like guilty till paid otherwise....

Who's gonna be enforcing these kangaroo courts? And how would you propose that enforcement to be achieved with a money system that is designed for anonymity and no control of already performed transactions?

You mean a convoluted super-tricky plot against an innocent user where we have to craft credible evidence? Do you think Kiba is a socialpath and decide to be evil and accuse a more vulnerable member of the community for defrauding another user? What's up with that?

Anyway, nobody is going to be enforcing anything other than seeing people voluntary following the laws.

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February 23, 2011, 07:03:05 PM
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There's no way to enforce said laws, given the nature of Bitcoin. How do you prevent the person from using other addresses? Other email accounts? Other IPs? Without a face-to-face system, or extensive tracking resources, I can't see a way that the rules will do anything but create friction in the system that would slow down any resolutions that would have happened anyway.

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kiba
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February 23, 2011, 07:05:49 PM
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I, personally, think that this idea of some kind of virtual bitcoin common law is extremely naive, a non-starter and simply utter nonsense.

Do you really think that a bunch of geeks   on forum will devise a reasonable legal system which would be accepted by all anonymous characters around here?

Do you really think that this system would be any better than, for example, English Common Law system which was devised by, let's face it, greater minds over hundreds of years?

Look, we have the benefit of hindsight and the ability to use the English common law system as we see fit! We have access to all the other law system in the world such as Icelandic law system. Not to mention we have access to scientific field such as game theory!

Secondly, we're a bunch of geeks who have not even specialized in much of anything yet. We don't even have a chance of constructing much of our laws yet! There are some geeks who really have an aptitude and the mindset necessary to construct a law system.

Thirdly, we can't use violence and coercion on the internet.

Lastly, we live in a global society. It's not just the anglo-saxon sphere, but also the Germanic, Italian, and Russian sphere! Don't forget the Asians too! How do we construct a law system that encompass the globe?

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February 23, 2011, 07:06:12 PM
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I personally will rely on Law of England and Wales for my business and personal affairs and will not ever accept any other 'laws' and anyone wishing to do business with me will have to rely on this Law too. (unless I am buying some stuff in other jurisdiction and have no bargaining power to enforce choice of law).


These laws are meaningless if you can not enforce them. You'd be hard pressed to bring a court case against an anonymous internet person. (Yes, anonymity is difficult, but that's a different discussion.) This is why the idea of web-of-trust etc. has been put to use in the Bitcoin community. If you can not rely on conventional legal means to enforce fair play, you come up with something else. Here, reputation is king. What is being discussed now is a way to make that reputation contingent on fair behaviour without descending into mob rule. I think it's a matter that has to be resolved. The solution doesn't have to be a full-blown legal system in the sense anyone living in a western society thinks of it. In fact, it shouldn't be that complex, it needs to be readily understandable by anyone. We just need to find common ground for dispute resolution so everyone can have an expectation of being treated fairly by the Bitcoin community at large.

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kiba
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February 23, 2011, 07:08:13 PM
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There's no way to enforce said laws, given the nature of Bitcoin. How do you prevent the person from using other addresses? Other email accounts? Other IPs? Without a face-to-face system, or extensive tracking resources, I can't see a way that the rules will do anything but create friction in the system that would slow down any resolutions that would have happened anyway.

You are free to use or not use any of the law system or even none at all. Nobody is forcing it upon you to use any of these system. Perhaps, it may be rather unnecessary 99% of the time.

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February 23, 2011, 07:12:41 PM
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There's no way to enforce said laws, given the nature of Bitcoin. How do you prevent the person from using other addresses? Other email accounts? Other IPs? Without a face-to-face system, or extensive tracking resources, I can't see a way that the rules will do anything but create friction in the system that would slow down any resolutions that would have happened anyway.

You are free to use or not use any of the law system or even none at all. Nobody is forcing it upon you to use any of these system. Perhaps, it may be rather unnecessary 99% of the time.

But isn't the point of a law system to enforce the rules upon those who don't want to follow them? To prevent behaviors that the majority (or at least those in power) deem unacceptable? To have an opt-in law system is, frankly, silly as the only people that will pay attention to it are the ones who will follow it. Without the ability to extend the reach of the law system to those who don't want to be a part of it, the law system just creates busywork, friction, and annoyances.

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kiba
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February 23, 2011, 07:18:13 PM
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But isn't the point of a law system to enforce the rules upon those who don't want to follow them? To prevent behaviors that the majority (or at least those in power) deem unacceptable? To have an opt-in law system is, frankly, silly as the only people that will pay attention to it are the ones who will follow it. Without the ability to extend the reach of the law system to those who don't want to be a part of it, the law system just creates busywork, friction, and annoyances.

The law system that create busywork, fiction, and annoyance are unnecessary and will be phrased out of the market.

We are talking about a system that form organically on how to arbitrate dispute and reduce the amount of dispute that could happens. That's all it is. We are not prescribing laws but trying to explain laws as people agree on.

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