[2013-27-12] India cracks down on bitcoin exchange

[stompix]

Yeah , on paper...
I saw through the last years the myth of the BRICS falling apart.
China with is fake numbers and currency manipulation , Russia with its' citizen running away to Europe, India with hundreds of thousands of people starving each year, Brazil who can't afford both  a world championship and normal healthcare and South Africa which in 30 years will have more people infected with HIV than healthy.

Well.... some of the facts are true. The others are not.

1. Chinese Yuan is getting stronger every day, whether it is due to currency manipulation or not.

2. Russian citizens are not running away to Europe. They were, until 4 or 5 years ago. Right now, Russia is having a positive net immigration.

3. Millions of people are starving in India. But things will change if the opposition is voted in to power in 2014.

4. Brazil is a lawless country, where you can cut down forests and massacre the indigenous tribals without any consequences. So no comments.

5. South Africa has suffered from massive brain drain and crime wave. Not going to be one of the top economies in the future.

Well , I do agree and I do not agree with some

1) You think that a manipulated currency is a good thing ? If that's ok , with you , then so be it

2) Russians are fleeing Russia , the + comes from the former soviet countries Tajikistan Uzbekistan , Kazakhstan and , that not a +

3) Maybe will change , or 99% nothing will change.

4) Agree with you but it's far worse then that. It appears their economy is a lie just like their oil fields.

5) Don't want to further comment this , I'll be labeled a racist.

[bryant.coleman]

Well , I do agree and I do not agree with some

1) You think that a manipulated currency is a good thing ? If that's ok , with you , then so be it

2) Russians are fleeing Russia , the + comes from the former soviet countries Tajikistan Uzbekistan , Kazakhstan and , that not a +

3) Maybe will change , or 99% nothing will change.

4) Agree with you but it's far worse then that. It appears their economy is a lie just like their oil fields.

5) Don't want to further comment this , I'll be labeled a racist.

Here is the truth:

1. There is some manipulation, but I don't believe that it is in high volumes.

2. Ethnic Russians are not fleeing Russia. Russia is a nation of some 143 million people. Last year less than 100,000 of them emigrated outside and most of them were ethnic Chechens. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan.etc have a large ethnic Russian population. Some of those migrating to Russia are these ethnic Russians.

3. If you follow the political mood in India closely, then it is clear that there is a massive popular wave against corruption. So I am optimistic.

4. Brazil economy depends a lot on Agro-industry. And they cut down 2 million hectares of Amazon forest every year to plant new Soya fields and cattle ranches. Once the EU/ US ban their Soya, Ethanol, Beef and Mahagony they will be in ruins. 

5. lol... understood.

[jeliman]

China and India actually might make the difference.

India is the oldest "democracy", China the most progressive economy.

Needless to say they represent substantial part of global population and production.

When they step on the bitcoin's (crypto) neck, other countries might folow in the long run.

[spndr7]

Can you please clarify on what kind of norms to be followed if i am bitcoin trader while converting BTC to indian Rupees.

India's ICICI Bank's FEMA(Foreign Exchange Management Act) FAQ

Person sending money abroad, should provide their identity and residence proof at the time of placing the request for outward remittance to authorised MTSS agent. The payment for the remittance may be made by account payee cheque or Demand Draft or by Cash deposit (upto Rs. 50,000/-) (806 USD).

They should have got MTSS authorized agent's license.
Money Transfer Service Scheme - Authorized Indian agents

[bryant.coleman]

China and India actually might make the difference.

China will make the difference. India... not much so. The total GDP of India is much lower than many other developing nations. And the GDP growth has stunted ever since the current ruling party was voted in to power (in 2004).

[jinni]

Can you please clarify on what kind of norms to be followed if i am bitcoin trader while converting BTC to indian Rupees.

India's ICICI Bank's FEMA(Foreign Exchange Management Act) FAQ

Person sending money abroad, should provide their identity and residence proof at the time of placing the request for outward remittance to authorised MTSS agent. The payment for the remittance may be made by account payee cheque or Demand Draft or by Cash deposit (upto Rs. 50,000/-) (806 USD).

They should have got MTSS authorized agent's license.
Money Transfer Service Scheme - Authorized Indian agents

Interesting. But I'm not sure a regular Bitcoin exchange would fall under the Money Transfer Service Scheme (MTSS). MTSS is supposed to make foreign remittances easier, but only for personal relations like family.

This is from the Reserve Bank of India website:

5. Other conditions

a. Only cross-border personal remittances, such as, remittances towards family maintenance and remittances favouring foreign tourists visiting India shall be allowed under this arrangement.

Now with a Bitcoin exchange one cannot chose to whom one is sending the money. But of course one could make a service where one sends Bitcoin and the recipient receives Rs. All one need to do is apply according to the above link and have about $130k in reserves etc.

On the other hand, if one wishes to trade in foreign (more like global) currency, like Bitcoin. One needs to comply with the Foreign Exchange Management Act (FEMA). And as far as I can tell it gives extremely broad discretion to the RBI. Basically, if the RBI feel like they can trust you to always do as they say, you will be allowed to operate on their terms alone. It seems like this would only be possible to do if one partnered with a bank.

So as far as I can tell Bitcoin is legal in India under the following terms:

1. Used as a Bitpay-like foreign remittance technology by a company that has $130k and the patience to comply with regulation (ie. to verify the identity of both parties).

2. A partnership with a bank to make an INR-BTC exchange. This bank would have to be in close dialogue with the RBI though.

These type of legal services might come over time, but as anything that has to comply with regulation in India it will need just that - time.

The most likely place for Bitcoin exchange in India is in the grey markets, on the street. As one can easily bring BTC into India, having liquidity in this market would be the matter of a number of individuals going to India to top-up the local grey market, then making outward remittances with the cash they get for the BTC. I'm sure the grey market will find many other ways of doing this as well.

[BTCIndia]

You guys must understand that exchange owner had company registered at fake address. Got it? Second, he transferred money overseas to get hold coins. In India, we have strict capital controls and laws were violated by exchange owner. Plus, they wanted better insight in Bitcoin economy and interrogating easiest way. They've only raided not arrested them. Okay? Government is just being government here, taking time to absorb and understand complex crypto-currencies. Peace!

[notthematrix]

You guys must understand that exchange owner had company registered at fake address. Got it? Second, he transferred money overseas to get hold coins. In India, we have strict capital controls and laws were violated by exchange owner. Plus, they wanted better insight in Bitcoin economy and interrogating easiest way. They've only raided not arrested them. Okay? Government is just being government here, taking time to absorb and understand complex crypto-currencies. Peace!

tanks for the inside , well now see when will btcindia re-open?

[jinni]

You guys must understand that exchange owner had company registered at fake address. Got it? Second, he transferred money overseas to get hold coins. In India, we have strict capital controls and laws were violated by exchange owner. Plus, they wanted better insight in Bitcoin economy and interrogating easiest way. They've only raided not arrested them. Okay? Government is just being government here, taking time to absorb and understand complex crypto-currencies. Peace!

You might be right. There are two extremes in which they can view the exchange owner, one extreme is that he is arrested for breaking many FEMA regulations and hence jailed. The other is that they accept a plea of ignorance as long as he cooperates.

But, is there really any doubt that a Bitcoin exchange will not have to apply to the same foreign currency exchange limitations that are applied on foreign fiat? Would there be any difference legally between exchanging between INR/BTC and INR/USD? The reason I ask is because the strict foreign exchange regulations in India are in place to give the RBI as much control as possible over the INR and its exchange rate.

So far India has not revealed any law saying that Bitcoin is not a currency, hence once an Indian has BTC (without going into details of how the BTC was acquired) that person could use it like a currency and trade it for goods and services just like with INR right?

[jeliman]

You guys must understand that exchange owner had company registered at fake address. Got it? Second, he transferred money overseas to get hold coins. In India, we have strict capital controls and laws were violated by exchange owner. Plus, they wanted better insight in Bitcoin economy and interrogating easiest way. They've only raided not arrested them. Okay? Government is just being government here, taking time to absorb and understand complex crypto-currencies. Peace!

hope UR right, similarly, the "chinese bitcoin ban" others see as a chinese careful yes to BTC

in direct oposition to the panic exchange price drop

[bryant.coleman]

You guys must understand that exchange owner had company registered at fake address. Got it? Second, he transferred money overseas to get hold coins. In India, we have strict capital controls and laws were violated by exchange owner. Plus, they wanted better insight in Bitcoin economy and interrogating easiest way. They've only raided not arrested them. Okay? Government is just being government here, taking time to absorb and understand complex crypto-currencies. Peace!

That might be true. But then why they are threatening to arrest everyone who own Bitcoins? The exchange owner might have committed some mistakes. And the enforcement is making use of it to banish Bitcoin from India.

[BTCIndia]

You guys must understand that exchange owner had company registered at fake address. Got it? Second, he transferred money overseas to get hold coins. In India, we have strict capital controls and laws were violated by exchange owner. Plus, they wanted better insight in Bitcoin economy and interrogating easiest way. They've only raided not arrested them. Okay? Government is just being government here, taking time to absorb and understand complex crypto-currencies. Peace!

That might be true. But then why they are threatening to arrest everyone who own Bitcoins? The exchange owner might have committed some mistakes. And the enforcement is making use of it to banish Bitcoin from India.

Like other central banks out there we've just warned users. Okay? Let them banish, if they want to. What's wrong in that? Revolutionary Osho was restricted in your country. We cried? No! You don't worry about our country and Bitcoin laws here. We can take care of it, being more experienced in handling diversified culture and financial system better than anybody else in world. Believe me! They understand more than we do and are capable of taking decision on our behalf. They can see what you/we usually miss. We believe in collective  and evolved wisdom not forced one. You can't force financial evolution on us. We're try to be sovereign ad mist all developed country and you makes things more complicated for us. Please cooperate!

 It's not first time westerns have came up with revolution. And I'm here to protest 'innocent' enthusiast.

Om Shanti Shanti!

[bryant.coleman]

Like other central banks out there we've just warned users. Okay? Let them banish, if they want to. What's wrong in that?

Oh... you deserve a Nobel prize for that.

You don't worry about our country and Bitcoin laws here. We can take care of it, being more experienced in handling diversified culture and financial system better than anybody else in world. Believe me! They understand more than we do and are capable of taking decision on our behalf. They can see what you/we usually miss. We believe in collective  and evolved wisdom not forced one. You can't force financial evolution on us. We're try to be sovereign ad mist all developed country and you makes things more complicated for us. Please cooperate!

Typical Indian arrogance. I don't care about your country. Do whatever you want. But I have only one doubt. If you are so much experienced in handling diversified culture and financial system better than anybody else in world, then why India is one of the poorest countries in the world? Also, why every day thousands of Indians are queuing up for British / American visas?

[BTCIndia]

Like other central banks out there we've just warned users. Okay? Let them banish, if they want to. What's wrong in that?

Oh... you deserve a Nobel prize for that.

You don't worry about our country and Bitcoin laws here. We can take care of it, being more experienced in handling diversified culture and financial system better than anybody else in world. Believe me! They understand more than we do and are capable of taking decision on our behalf. They can see what you/we usually miss. We believe in collective  and evolved wisdom not forced one. You can't force financial evolution on us. We're try to be sovereign ad mist all developed country and you makes things more complicated for us. Please cooperate!

Typical Indian arrogance. I don't care about your country. Do whatever you want. But I have only one doubt. If you are so much experienced in handling diversified culture and financial system better than anybody else in world, then why India is one of the poorest countries in the world? Also, why every day thousands of Indians are queuing up for British / American visas?

Sometimes arrogance is necessary. Neither care about your care for our country. I always did whatever I want and will continue to do so. I don't need direction for doing 'whatever'. India is poor because we haven't conquered foreign soil since last 10,000 years for resources. Jio Aur Jeene Do(Live and let live) is our motto. We've spiritual wealth that most people aren't capable of absorbing. Last question is irrelevant to me. If you still need answer. I'll drop PM.

 

[spndr7]

India is poor because we haven't conquered foreign soil since last 10,000 years for resources.

There is only 2 options always, no third option --

1. conquer or be conquered

2. enslave or be enslaved

3. rule or be ruled

4. humiliate or be humiliated

Our country has realized it, since we became truly and legally united in 1947.

Unfortunately, this is the stark truth, that utopia of perfect balance in society and world, had been a fry cry for humanity.