I'm selling through PayPal!

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

I haven't read the entire topic so I might be repeating someone, but, OP, are you aware that Paypal has already explicitly forbidden the use of their platform for bitcoin selling/purchases?

Search these forums for CoinPal. The guy had successfully made two sites, one for selling and another for buying bitcoins with paypal, which were resisting frauds. Until Paypal froze his account.

You'll have the same fate, unless you make something that Paypal itself can't track, what wouldn't be easy. If you really want to go that way, you might be interested in reading this: http://bitcoinweekly.com/articles/anonymous-money-needs-an-anonymous-exchange (replace bank account by paypal account).

[ghgr]

The second version is now ready. I invite you to continue testing  http://btc.donotcompare.com
This time, once you have the PIN sent, it will be the same for future purchases.
Since the backend is mostly the same as the previous version, now prices are closer to the market (still a bit lower).

For those who have already bought coins, can you tell me if the Paypal interface was all the time in English?

are you aware that Paypal has already explicitly forbidden the use of their platform for bitcoin selling/purchases?

I don't think Paypal has explicity forbidden the sell of Bitcoin. They forbid the currency exchange, and whether Bitcoin is a currency is still subject of debate. I am aware of the actions against Coinpal and I am being as cautious as possible in order to avoid the same fate. This is why I implemented my own system of identification and I set limits on the purchases.

you might be interested in reading this: http://bitcoinweekly.com/articles/anonymous-money-needs-an-anonymous-exchange (replace bank account by paypal account).

Thaks for the article, it's very interesting. But I hope it won't get that bad to need that:

1. When depositing or withdrawing from ATM's the runners/operators face must be concealed as they have cameras.
2. The ATM's used must constantly be changed, they must essentially be random otherwise the operators can be caught.

That is the opposite of what I am trying to do, be as transparent as possible.

[whitebird]

The interface of paypal was not english.
edit: it arrived

[dimaweber]

1. i suggest you disable Sent Pin button after it pressed. I almost pressed it again since there is no HUGE CENTER SCREEN RED message "pin sent" ..

2. the first PP screen (one that asks for login / password) not in english (spanish?). It may scary some people who might think it is fishing site. After login it is on my local language.

3. This time btc's arrived in my client just after i pressed Pay in PP. Previous time it took 5 hours between your confirmation and actual arrive (actualy, may be i just got REALLY lucky this time )

4. Just to confirm: all next excahnges should be done with the PIN i just got ? no need to press Get PIn again for me ?(As long as i use seme phone number sure).

[ghgr]

1. i suggest you disable Sent Pin button after it pressed. I almost pressed it again since there is no HUGE CENTER SCREEN RED message "pin sent" ..

Don't worry for that, it just sends one SMS. On the second click it will say "Your PIN has already been sent"

2. the first PP screen (one that asks for login / password) not in english (spanish?). It may scary some people who might think it is fishing site. After login it is on my local language.

I changed the language in my Paypal account, and now in the tests the whole process seems to be in English. Tell me if the language keeps changing.

3. This time btc's arrived in my client just after i pressed Pay in PP. Previous time it took 5 hours between your confirmation and actual arrive (actualy, may be i just got REALLY lucky this time )

5 hours??! Wow, thanks for your patience, really    When I receive the payment notification I often check if the balance has decreased, and it has. Sometimes it takes a while for the receiver to see its balance increased (it happens to me when I move money between wallets). But still, 5 hours... it must have been an exceptional case...

4. Just to confirm: all next excahnges should be done with the PIN i just got ? no need to press Get PIn again for me ?(As long as i use seme phone number sure).

Correct, but anyway if you tried to ask for a new PIN you'll see the message "Your PIN has already been sent. Use the same of your last purchase. If you did not receive it, please contact me".

Thanks for your commentaries!

[dimaweber]

>>5 hours??! Wow, thanks for your patience, really    When I receive the payment notification I often check if the
>> balance has decreased, and it has. Sometimes it takes a while for the receiver to see its balance increased (it
>> happens to me when I move money between wallets). But still, 5 hours... it must have been an exceptional case.

well, i just checked my transfers from deepbit -- 1h 30min average between DeepBit Payment tab time and my client time.

in dontcompare's case PP payment were at 25.08.2011 23:35:37 UTC+3
and client lists transaction as Date: 8/26/11 06:57 UTC+3
block explorer lists that transaction as: 2011-08-26 03:57:36 UTC

even sending from one wallet to another isn't instant, IIRC ( don't want to restart client now to check )

I think sender see immediate balance decrease, but not receiver.
(Hint, maybe, it worth to write on exchange page about this delay )

[ghgr]

Thanks for your purchases so far!
I've added some coins to the balance (I expect many more before the end of the week), and the limits are increased faster with each purchase. In order to avoid problems with Paypal you will see that the expression "Buy BTC" is omitted. Instead of that, the user pays to enter the "Hall of Fame", where the Bitcoin will be shown with a link to the transaction (Blockexplorer). This is just a measure to defend agains fraudulent chargebacks.

(Hint, maybe, it worth to write on exchange page about this delay )

Thanks for the advice! Since it's true that Bitcoins transitions are not instantaneous, the user should (in normal situations) be able to see the transaction with 0 confirmations some seconds after the purchase. After talking to my server's tech support I realized that it was an exceptional case and in the unlikely case that it happened again I'd prefer the user to contact me directly (and then I will absolutely change of server ^^).

[jriley1087]

For those who have already bought coins, can you tell me if the Paypal interface was all the time in English?

Just purchased and it went smoothly, but the paypal interface was in Spanish until I logged in.

[ghgr]

Just purchased and it went smoothly, but the paypal interface was in Spanish until I logged in.

I've explicitly set the language to English in the "Buy now" button, so from now on all the process should be in English.

Thanks for using the service!

[Jan]

Interesting project. I wish you luck.

[aq]

I see that you are now selling at a 30% premium.

Write it in international format with no spaces, no '00' and no '+'.

Wouldn't it be easier to just remove the '00' or '+' characters by your back end instead of confusing the customer?

[bitdude]

Hi, I am looking for a service to buy BTC for PayPal, does this one really works?

[Kansattica]

It totally works.

[higbvuyb]

I think that site would benefit greatly from a decently written "help" section.

Also some design, but a "help/FAQ/howto" is a priority.

But I find it intriguing and will watch the fate of paypal/bitcoin "not-really-exchange-hone'sly" with great interest

[ghgr]

Thanks for your comments!

Wouldn't it be easier to just remove the '00' or '+' characters by your back end instead of confusing the customer?

Indeed, much easier. Now the backend deals with 00, +, +00 and any other combination (and of course with the current format). Thanks for the advice!  

I think that site would benefit greatly from a decently written "help" section.

Good point. While I wait for the new Bitcoins to arrive I'm going to start a HowTo, in order to explain how the fact of being in the "Hall of Fame" implies that the Bitcoins have been sent.

In the meanwhile I encourage you to make your first purchases in order to increase your day-limit. At this moment here is how the purchase limit is increased (I did not make it public in the webpage since it might be adjusted depending on its effectivity to prevent fraud):
nº purchases // Max Bitcoins per 24 hours
1 // 0.1 BTC
2 // 1 BTC
4 // 1.5 BTC
6 // 2.0 BTC
8 // 3.0 BTC
10 // 5.0 BTC
>10 // 10 BTC

One of the advantages of selling BTC with Paypal is that the user does not need to trust the seller. If things go wrong, he can request a chargeback and have his money back. Anyway, if you have any problem with the delivery of Bitcoins (for example, an exceptional delay that makes you feel unconfortable) please contact me (to my email or publicly in this forum) before complaining to Paypal. It will be solved much faster and I prefer not to bother Paypal with honest chargebacks.

I am also working on the reverse service (i.e. sending a Paypal donation to whoever sends BTC to a particular address), but I am having a hard time trying to automate the entire process, and in addition it will require trust on the side of the user. This service would allow spending BTC wherever Paypal is accepted, and will encourage newcomers to use Bitcoin. If you are interested in such a service tell me and I'll work harder on it  

[Cato]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but you do know that selling BTC through PayPal violates their acceptable use policy https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full. See Sec. 3(f) prohibiting currency exchanges. Although not everyone feels that BTC meets the definition of currency, PayPal feels that it's close enough to violate their policy.

[ghgr]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but you do know that selling BTC through PayPal violates their acceptable use policy https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full. See Sec. 3(f) prohibiting currency exchanges. Although not everyone feels that BTC meets the definition of currency, PayPal feels that it's close enough to violate their policy.

That's a rational remark, but consider the following:

1) Bitcoin is not a currency (or at least it's matter of dispute).

2)I am not selling Bitcoins, I am selling a position in a Hall of Fame. The fact that belonging to this Hall of Fame implies that Bitcoins had been sent does not make that I am selling Bitcoins. This is not a retoric recourse to bypass Paypal's policies. On the contrary, it clearly states the service I am offering and what the client is paying for. Since the block chain and all the Bitcoin's formalities cannot serve as evidence for Paypal, I have to give a similar service, both easy to explain to newcomers and equally secure for experienced clients.

3) Someone could cite that Coinpal used to sell Bitcoins and now its account is frozen (or even closed). But my service is not the same. Consider the following example:
Instead of belonging to a "Hall of Fame" imagine that I'm selling "pixels" in a "Hall of Fame" (people pay for some pixels in a "privileged" space). Does it sound familiar? It was the Million Dollar Homepage, which Paypal used to accept.

With that I mean that what will happen is not clear, but I have ways to get scammers away and to prove that my service complies with Paypal terms of service. Anyway, the worst that can happen to you as clients is to receive an error message like "This merchant's account is no longer available", so take advantage while it is online, I'll handle the rest 

[JeremyTrice]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but you do know that selling BTC through PayPal violates their acceptable use policy https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full. See Sec. 3(f) prohibiting currency exchanges. Although not everyone feels that BTC meets the definition of currency, PayPal feels that it's close enough to violate their policy.

That's a rational remark, but consider the following:

1) Bitcoin is not a currency (or at least it's matter of dispute).

2)I am not selling Bitcoins, I am selling a position in a Hall of Fame. The fact that belonging to this Hall of Fame implies that Bitcoins had been sent does not make that I am selling Bitcoins. This is not a retoric recourse to bypass Paypal's policies. On the contrary, it clearly states the service I am offering and what the client is paying for. Since the block chain and all the Bitcoin's formalities cannot serve as evidence for Paypal, I have to give a similar service, both easy to explain to newcomers and equally secure for experienced clients.

3) Someone could cite that Coinpal used to sell Bitcoins and now its account is frozen (or even closed). But my service is not the same. Consider the following example:
Instead of belonging to a "Hall of Fame" imagine that I'm selling "pixels" in a "Hall of Fame" (people pay for some pixels in a "privileged" space). Does it sound familiar? It was the Million Dollar Homepage, which Paypal used to accept.

With that I mean that what will happen is not clear, but I have ways to get scammers away and to prove that my service complies with Paypal terms of service. Anyway, the worst that can happen to you as clients is to receive an error message like "This merchant's account is no longer available", so take advantage while it is online, I'll handle the rest 

Yeah I actually considered doing something similar to this.  The thing is you're kind of in a lose/lose situation.  If paypal doesn't accept your premise, your account is frozen.  If they do accept your premise than you've just created a model for anyone to duplicate.  That being said.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.  Good Luck

[JeremyTrice]

Oh yeah, I also wanted to mention that scammers could easily point to this thread and show that you did promise to sell them bitcoins and didn't deliver.  Just something to think about

[ghgr]

Yeah I actually considered doing something similar to this.  The thing is you're kind of in a lose/lose situation.  If paypal doesn't accept your premise, your account is frozen.  If they do accept your premise than you've just created a model for anyone to duplicate.  That being said.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.  Good Luck

I appreciate your observations on this business model. Actually I don't think it is a lose/lose situation. If my model is duplicated, it means that it works. We could also argue that anyone can duplicate the model of MtGox, or Facebook, or... yes, they can, and they do, and they all coexist in the market. Thanks for wishing me luck (I think I'll need it  )

By the way, I've just added more coins, which will allow me to accept more people in the Hall of Fame. Happy purchases!