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Author Topic: Legitimate Threats, Legitimate Demands  (Read 4901 times)
Hawker
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August 25, 2011, 09:30:42 PM
 #21

Its obvious you have something troubling you and I wonder if you considered turning the computer off for a bit and finding someone who you can talk to and get things in perspective.

You're either trolling or you take posts made on a discussion forum way too seriously. Either way, stop.

So your OP was not serious?

Honestly, I'm not trolling.  Your OP is very odd.  Whatever vision you want to promote, talk about demanding people kill themselves and insisting its your right and talk of threats only makes you look strange and undermines your argument.

/peace out

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NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 10:34:33 PM
 #22

Its obvious you have something troubling you and I wonder if you considered turning the computer off for a bit and finding someone who you can talk to and get things in perspective.

You're either trolling or you take posts made on a discussion forum way too seriously. Either way, stop.

So your OP was not serious?

Honestly, I'm not trolling.  Your OP is very odd.  Whatever vision you want to promote, talk about demanding people kill themselves and insisting its your right and talk of threats only makes you look strange and undermines your argument.

/peace out

Well then you really don't understand how philosophers work. We like to talk about edge and extreme cases because they inform us about the general and middle cases.
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August 26, 2011, 12:46:54 AM
 #23

Here are the conditions for legitimate threats.

  • If I have the right to do X then it is legitimate for me to threaten to do X.
  • If I don't have the right to do X then it is illegitimate for me to threaten to do X.

Here are some examples. I have the right to leave the room. Therefore, it is legitimate for me to threaten to leave the room. I have the right to hang up on you. Therefore, it is legitimate for me to threaten to hang up on you. I don't have the right to kill you. Therefore, it is illegitimate for me to threaten to kill you. I don't have the right to torture you. Therefore, it is illegitimate for me to threaten to torture you.

It seems simple so far but now for a real test.

I have the right to allow you to starve. I have the right to not give you my money. Therefore? It is legitimate for me to threaten to allow you to starve. It is legitimate for me to threaten to not give you my money.

What demands can I make? Here are the conditions for legitimate demands.

  • If you have the right to do X then it is legitimate for me to demand that you do X.
  • If you don't have the right to do X then it is illegitimate for me to demand that you do X.

You have the right to kill yourself. Therefore, it is legitimate for me to demand that you kill yourself. You don't have the right to kill someone else. Therefore, it is illegitimate for me to demand that you kill someone else.

So please, stop acting as if threatening to allow you to starve is the same as threatening to kill you. Those are not the same kinds of threats at all. They both will result in your death but one is legitimate and the other is not. I can legitimately threaten anything I have the right to do. I can legitimately demand anything you have the right to do. I have the right to allow you to starve. You have the right to work. If I threaten to allow you to starve unless you work, it's legitimate. Work or starve.

I agree that this all follows logically from your premises with the understanding that "demand" does not mean the individual has to comply.  It's a strong request.  I think another word would be better suited here, but I understand the point.  I would like to note, however, that it is not so much your right to allow someone to starve as your right to withhold your property (food) from them.  In consequence and effect, it is one and the same thing, but the right derives from your right to control your own property rather than your right to allow human suffering.  Thoughts?
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August 26, 2011, 01:27:29 AM
 #24

I agree that this all follows logically from your premises with the understanding that "demand" does not mean the individual has to comply.

I never understood "demand" to mean that, such as when workers go on strike because they demand better wages or working conditions.

Thoughts?

I'm not concerned from where a right to do X is derived. My only point is, if I have can legitimately do X then I can legitimately threaten to do X. If anyone disagrees with that, let me know. Everything else is off-topic.
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August 26, 2011, 01:46:08 AM
 #25

Its obvious you have something troubling you and I wonder if you considered turning the computer off for a bit and finding someone who you can talk to and get things in perspective.

You're either trolling or you take posts made on a discussion forum way too seriously. Either way, stop.

So your OP was not serious?

Honestly, I'm not trolling.  Your OP is very odd.  Whatever vision you want to promote, talk about demanding people kill themselves and insisting its your right and talk of threats only makes you look strange and undermines your argument.

/peace out

Well then you really don't understand how philosophers work. We like to talk about edge and extreme cases because they inform us about the general and middle cases.


And how does this inform you about "general" and "middle" cases?

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NghtRppr
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August 26, 2011, 02:18:39 AM
 #26

Its obvious you have something troubling you and I wonder if you considered turning the computer off for a bit and finding someone who you can talk to and get things in perspective.

You're either trolling or you take posts made on a discussion forum way too seriously. Either way, stop.

So your OP was not serious?

Honestly, I'm not trolling.  Your OP is very odd.  Whatever vision you want to promote, talk about demanding people kill themselves and insisting its your right and talk of threats only makes you look strange and undermines your argument.

/peace out

Well then you really don't understand how philosophers work. We like to talk about edge and extreme cases because they inform us about the general and middle cases.


And how does this inform you about "general" and "middle" cases?

What's true for the controversial cases is true for the uncontroversial cases. If I can convince you that I should have a mile, I can easily convince you that I should have an inch.
AyeYo
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August 26, 2011, 02:36:47 AM
 #27

Your original post still makes absolutely no sense.  You need to articulate your point better, because extreme examples are useless if no one understands wtf point you're even trying to make.

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NghtRppr
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August 26, 2011, 02:43:56 AM
 #28

Your original post still makes absolutely no sense.  You need to articulate your point better, because extreme examples are useless if no one understands wtf point you're even trying to make.

Everyone else seems to understand me. I'll do that when a non-troll makes the same request.
Hawker
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August 26, 2011, 06:34:44 AM
 #29

I agree that this all follows logically from your premises with the understanding that "demand" does not mean the individual has to comply.

I never understood "demand" to mean that, such as when workers go on strike because they demand better wages or working conditions.

Thoughts?

I'm not concerned from where a right to do X is derived. My only point is, if I have can legitimately do X then I can legitimately threaten to do X. If anyone disagrees with that, let me know. Everything else is off-topic.

So you made a thread about threats and demands to illustrate your grasp of logic?  Your logic is correct.  Congratulations.  Beyond being logically correct, is there a point?  After all, no-one will disagree with your logic but many will disagree with your definition of "legitimate." 

Karmicads
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August 26, 2011, 06:42:31 AM
 #30

I understand. It's a bit like the Colosseum scene in Life Of Brian:

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JUDITH: I do feel, Reg, that any Anti-Imperialist group like ours must reflect such a divergence of interests within its power-base.
 
REG: Agreed. Francis?
 
FRANCIS: Yeah. I think Judith's point of view is very valid, Reg, provided the Movement never forgets that it is the inalienable right of every man--
 
STAN: Or woman.
 
FRANCIS: Or woman... to rid himself--
 
STAN: Or herself.
 
FRANCIS: Or herself.
 
REG: Agreed.
 
FRANCIS: Thank you, brother.
 
STAN: Or sister.
 
FRANCIS: Or sister. Where was I?
 
REG: I think you'd finished.
 
FRANCIS: Oh. Right.
 
REG: Furthermore, it is the birthright of every man--
 
STAN: Or woman.
 
REG: Why don't you shut up about women, Stan. You're putting us off.
 
STAN: Women have a perfect right to play a part in our movement, Reg.
 
FRANCIS: Why are you always on about women, Stan?
 
STAN: I want to be one.
 
REG: What?
 
STAN: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.
 
REG: What?!
 
LORETTA: It's my right as a man.
 
JUDITH: Well, why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
 
LORETTA: I want to have babies.
 
REG: You want to have babies?!
 
LORETTA: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
 
REG: But... you can't have babies.
 
LORETTA: Don't you oppress me.
 
REG: I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb! -- Where's the fetus going to gestate?! You going to keep it in a box?!
 
LORETTA: [crying]
 
JUDITH: Here! I-- I've got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans', but that he can have the right to have babies.
 
FRANCIS: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister. Sorry.
 
REG: What's the point?
 
FRANCIS: What?
 
REG: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can't have babies?!
 
FRANCIS: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
 
REG: Symbolic of his struggle against reality.


Sometimes I think this place is so much like the Peoples Font of Judea.

Solidarity brothers... er... and sisters.
AyeYo
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August 26, 2011, 12:14:56 PM
 #31

I agree that this all follows logically from your premises with the understanding that "demand" does not mean the individual has to comply.

I never understood "demand" to mean that, such as when workers go on strike because they demand better wages or working conditions.

Thoughts?

I'm not concerned from where a right to do X is derived. My only point is, if I have can legitimately do X then I can legitimately threaten to do X. If anyone disagrees with that, let me know. Everything else is off-topic.

So you made a thread about threats and demands to illustrate your grasp of logic?  Your logic is correct.  Congratulations.  Beyond being logically correct, is there a point?  After all, no-one will disagree with your logic but many will disagree with your definition of "legitimate." 


Exactly this.

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deuxmill
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August 26, 2011, 01:02:52 PM
 #32

For the sake of discussion, I agree that your conclusions follow from your premises. However, how do you determine what are really your rights and mine?

That's far beyond the scope of this discussion. Let's keep this focused on arguing about whether or not I can threaten to do what I have the right to do, or demand you to do what you have the right to do.

Yes you can threaten as much as you want. but you can't demand me to do what i have the right/need/want/like to do.

I actually don't give a fuck about threat , threatening is just words and doesn't damage. If someone threatens to Kill you , doesn't mean he will actually do it. To be accused of attempt of murder you actually have to take action to fulfill the murder. So in my view is OK even to threaten.

I have the right to live but you can't demand me to live.
I have the right to work but you can't demand me to work.
I have the right to vote but you can't demand me to vote.
You don't have the right to kill me , but you can threaten me as much as you want , you should be watched but not penalized for threatening.
A country becomes nuclear , it can threaten to use the Nukes , but there shouldn't be a action against that country only if it uses it's Nukes. NO PREEMPTIVE STRIKES.
NghtRppr
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August 26, 2011, 02:20:47 PM
 #33

After all, no-one will disagree with your logic...

Cool, then you recognize the legitimacy of blackmail? I can legitimately tell people your dirty little secret. That's free speech. So then I can legitimately threaten to tell people your dirty little secret unless you pay me $1,000 every month. Right?
AyeYo
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August 26, 2011, 03:13:49 PM
 #34

After all, no-one will disagree with your logic...

Cool, then you recognize the legitimacy of blackmail? I can legitimately tell people your dirty little secret. That's free speech. So then I can legitimately threaten to tell people your dirty little secret unless you pay me $1,000 every month. Right?

Right, at least under your moronic logic.  The real world is less black/white.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
NghtRppr
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August 26, 2011, 03:58:03 PM
 #35

After all, no-one will disagree with your logic...

Cool, then you recognize the legitimacy of blackmail? I can legitimately tell people your dirty little secret. That's free speech. So then I can legitimately threaten to tell people your dirty little secret unless you pay me $1,000 every month. Right?

Right, at least under your moronic logic.  The real world is less black/white.

Oh, so you disagree with my logic? Alright well I guess Hawker was wrong then. Someone will disagree with my logic.
Hawker
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August 26, 2011, 04:28:53 PM
 #36

After all, no-one will disagree with your logic...

Cool, then you recognize the legitimacy of blackmail? I can legitimately tell people your dirty little secret. That's free speech. So then I can legitimately threaten to tell people your dirty little secret unless you pay me $1,000 every month. Right?

In this country, blackmail is legitimate if the subject matter is true.  There are press agents like Max Clifford who make a very good living getting "kiss'n'tell" stories, approaching the rich individual involved and for a handsome fee selling them the exclusive right to the story.

Legitimate doesn't mean its OK.  Most people are torn between a prurient desire to know celebrity gossip and a moral repulsion at the way the stories are sourced. 

If the story is false, that's another matter but I doubt you are claiming its legitimate to lie about people for profit.

Out of curiosity, why do you care?  Has someone tried to stop you talking about some "dirty little secret?"  Do tell... Shocked

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August 26, 2011, 04:31:55 PM
 #37

In this country, blackmail is legitimate if the subject matter is true.

You might want to read 18 U.S.C. § 873.

Quote
Whoever, under a threat of informing, or as a consideration for not informing, against any violation of any law of the United States, demands or receives any money or other valuable thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

Legitimate doesn't mean its OK.

Legitimate means I can't use violence to stop you. It's legitimate to call your grandmother a cunt but it's definitely not something you should do.
AyeYo
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August 26, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
 #38

After all, no-one will disagree with your logic...

Cool, then you recognize the legitimacy of blackmail? I can legitimately tell people your dirty little secret. That's free speech. So then I can legitimately threaten to tell people your dirty little secret unless you pay me $1,000 every month. Right?

Right, at least under your moronic logic.  The real world is less black/white.

Oh, so you disagree with my logic? Alright well I guess Hawker was wrong then. Someone will disagree with my logic.

As previously stated, your logic by itself is pointless unless you make some kind of point with it.  What's legitimate or not doesn't matter in the real world.  What matters in the real world is what's prudent.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
NghtRppr
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August 26, 2011, 04:41:41 PM
 #39

What's legitimate or not doesn't matter in the real world.

You're an idiot. Please stop talking to me.
AyeYo
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August 26, 2011, 04:52:51 PM
 #40

What's legitimate or not doesn't matter in the real world.

You're an idiot. Please stop talking to me.

Typical.

Once again you miss the irony you bring on yourself.  How can you call yourself a philosopher, but be afraid of getting into depth and gray areas of any issue.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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