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Author Topic: Legitimate Threats, Legitimate Demands  (Read 4902 times)
NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 12:07:16 AM
 #1

Here are the conditions for legitimate threats.

  • If I have the right to do X then it is legitimate for me to threaten to do X.
  • If I don't have the right to do X then it is illegitimate for me to threaten to do X.

Here are some examples. I have the right to leave the room. Therefore, it is legitimate for me to threaten to leave the room. I have the right to hang up on you. Therefore, it is legitimate for me to threaten to hang up on you. I don't have the right to kill you. Therefore, it is illegitimate for me to threaten to kill you. I don't have the right to torture you. Therefore, it is illegitimate for me to threaten to torture you.

It seems simple so far but now for a real test.

I have the right to allow you to starve. I have the right to not give you my money. Therefore? It is legitimate for me to threaten to allow you to starve. It is legitimate for me to threaten to not give you my money.

What demands can I make? Here are the conditions for legitimate demands.

  • If you have the right to do X then it is legitimate for me to demand that you do X.
  • If you don't have the right to do X then it is illegitimate for me to demand that you do X.

You have the right to kill yourself. Therefore, it is legitimate for me to demand that you kill yourself. You don't have the right to kill someone else. Therefore, it is illegitimate for me to demand that you kill someone else.

So please, stop acting as if threatening to allow you to starve is the same as threatening to kill you. Those are not the same kinds of threats at all. They both will result in your death but one is legitimate and the other is not. I can legitimately threaten anything I have the right to do. I can legitimately demand anything you have the right to do. I have the right to allow you to starve. You have the right to work. If I threaten to allow you to starve unless you work, it's legitimate. Work or starve.
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brocktice
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August 25, 2011, 12:13:42 AM
 #2

For the sake of discussion, I agree that your conclusions follow from your premises. However, how do you determine what are really your rights and mine?

http://media.witcoin.com/p/1608/8----This-is-nuts

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NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 12:23:40 AM
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For the sake of discussion, I agree that your conclusions follow from your premises. However, how do you determine what are really your rights and mine?

That's far beyond the scope of this discussion. Let's keep this focused on arguing about whether or not I can threaten to do what I have the right to do, or demand you to do what you have the right to do.
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August 25, 2011, 12:43:00 AM
 #4

How do you define 'legitimate'? How do you define 'demand'?

It might result in a lot more friendly discussion if you were to use e.g. the word 'promise' instead of 'threaten'. Changing the language like that should get you towards the language of contracts, and ease access to the large body of knowledge that exists in that field.
NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 12:59:03 AM
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How do you define 'legitimate'? How do you define 'demand'?

I would assume like most other people. Are you unfamiliar with those words?
AyeYo
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August 25, 2011, 01:21:45 AM
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You're turning into Atlas, leaving steaming shit piles all around the board but never coming back when people confront you with tough questions.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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August 25, 2011, 01:58:04 AM
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never coming back

Which is why I had the last post before you made that idiotic claim? I also can't help but notice that your recent replies to me have been nothing but whiny little bitch comments that don't even touch upon the issues.
AyeYo
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August 25, 2011, 02:36:52 AM
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You could have responded to the criticism here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38341.0 before crapping on us with another shitty thread.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
Hawker
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August 25, 2011, 07:34:51 AM
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Quote
You have the right to kill yourself. Therefore, it is legitimate for me to demand that you kill yourself.

You are a very strange person.

NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 03:31:54 PM
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You could have responded to the criticism here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38341.0 before crapping on us with another shitty thread.

There was no criticism. Just a bunch of people agreeing with me and the usual trolls. If you want to quote something in that thread that you thing I should respond to then go for it but right now you're just trying to be an insulting little douche as usual.

You are a very strange person.

You're a piece of shit troll.
TheGer
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August 25, 2011, 03:55:03 PM
 #11

You have the right to give your last $10 in the world away to strangers.  Is it legitimate when I demand that you do so?  

There's no moral, ethical, or legal reason you should feel inclined to do so because I told you to, hence your argument is flawed because it is not a legitimate demand(moral, ethical, legal).


"If you have the right to do X then it is legitimate for me to demand that you do X."

_________

Here is another take on this.

The right to Free Speech granted under the Constitution grants us the right to say what we like.  This is legitimate.  Therefore I can make any demand or say anything I want, thus negating your assumption on what's legitimate and what's not.
NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 04:13:23 PM
 #12

You have the right to give your last $10 in the world away to strangers.  Is it legitimate when I demand that you do so?

Just because I demand something doesn't mean you have to meet my demand. So, yes, it is legitimate for you to demand that I give my last $10 away to strangers.

The right to Free Speech granted under the Constitution grants us the right to say what we like.

Also, this discussion isn't an argument about how our legal system is but rather about how it should be. The Constitution is irrelevant. Slavery was once legal until the Constitution was amended but it was never legitimate.

On a personal note, I would like to thank you for actually addressing the arguments and not insulting me. I wish everyone on these forums that disagrees with me was respectful like you.
ansible adams
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August 25, 2011, 04:27:22 PM
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For the sake of discussion, I agree that your conclusions follow from your premises. However, how do you determine what are really your rights and mine?

That's far beyond the scope of this discussion. Let's keep this focused on arguing about whether or not I can threaten to do what I have the right to do, or demand you to do what you have the right to do.

This is like a Catholic offering to debate the nature of the Holy Trinity while saying that the question of evidence for God's existence is "far beyond the scope of this discussion." Your faulty conclusions follow logically from your flawed premises. Well played, Thomas Aquinas.
NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 04:35:55 PM
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Your faulty conclusions follow logically from your flawed premises.

The only relevant conclusion in this discussion is: if I can legitimately do X, I can legitimately threaten to do X. Everything else is beyond the scope of this discussion and incidental.

If I don't draw the line somewhere, we can argue endlessly about everything. I'm sorry if you feel slighted but if you want to start a debate on whether or not it's legitimate for me to allow you to starve, then start it, in a separate thread. However, since you clearly agree that if I can legitimately do X, I can legitimately threaten to do X, I'm satisfied. Whether or not I can legitimately do X is beyond the scope of this discussion. I'm sorry if you are incapable of understanding that.
Hawker
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August 25, 2011, 05:01:41 PM
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Your faulty conclusions follow logically from your flawed premises.

The only relevant conclusion in this discussion is: if I can legitimately do X, I can legitimately threaten to do X. Everything else is beyond the scope of this discussion and incidental.

If I don't draw the line somewhere, we can argue endlessly about everything. I'm sorry if you feel slighted but if you want to start a debate on whether or not it's legitimate for me to allow you to starve, then start it, in a separate thread. However, since you clearly agree that if I can legitimately do X, I can legitimately threaten to do X, I'm satisfied. Whether or not I can legitimately do X is beyond the scope of this discussion. I'm sorry if you are incapable of understanding that.

Posting that you want to make threats to do stuff you are entitled to and that you want to be able to demand people kill themselves is just bizarre.  Have you considered talking to someone in real life about whatever it is that is getting you in this state?

Denicen
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August 25, 2011, 05:32:17 PM
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Let us say that you have more food than you can eat, and your surplus food will rot if it is not given away. Is it legitimate for you to deny the starving man food in that situation?
NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 05:36:11 PM
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Posting that you want to make threats to do stuff you are entitled to and that you want to be able to demand people kill themselves is just bizarre.  Have you considered talking to someone in real life about whatever it is that is getting you in this state?

Oh I get it. You're one of those idiots that can't tell the difference between arguing that one should be able to do something and arguing that one wants to or should do something. I think people should be able to do heroin but I personally wouldn't want to do it and I would urge everyone not to do it at all. You really need to work on that.
TheGer
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August 25, 2011, 06:52:53 PM
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Saying "Just because I demand something doesn't mean you have to meet my demand" undermines your original post.  The implication of Legitimacy is that it has "Validity" or "common Sense" or some other logical reason for existing.

The fact that you argue the point by saying "you don't have to meet my demand" removes the basis for Legitimacy or Illegitimacy from the from this conversation as the above statement makes either redundant.

"Just because I demand something doesn't mean you have to meet my demand. So, yes, it is legitimate for you to demand that I give my last $10 away to strangers."

_____

Sorry but Free Speech granted under the Constitution IS how our legal system should be.

"Quote from: TheGer on Today at 03:55:03 pm
The right to Free Speech granted under the Constitution grants us the right to say what we like.

Also, this discussion isn't an argument about how our legal system is but rather about how it should be. "
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August 25, 2011, 08:20:23 PM
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Posting that you want to make threats to do stuff you are entitled to and that you want to be able to demand people kill themselves is just bizarre.  Have you considered talking to someone in real life about whatever it is that is getting you in this state?

Oh I get it. You're one of those idiots that can't tell the difference between arguing that one should be able to do something and arguing that one wants to or should do something. I think people should be able to do heroin but I personally wouldn't want to do it and I would urge everyone not to do it at all. You really need to work on that.

"You have the right to kill yourself. Therefore, it is legitimate for me to demand that you kill yourself. "

Thats your original quote.  Be honest with yourself - thats kinda weird. 

EDIT: for the sake of clarity, I am not criticising you.  Its obvious you have something troubling you and I wonder if you considered turning the computer off for a bit and finding someone who you can talk to and get things in perspective.

NghtRppr
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August 25, 2011, 08:55:21 PM
 #20

Its obvious you have something troubling you and I wonder if you considered turning the computer off for a bit and finding someone who you can talk to and get things in perspective.

You're either trolling or you take posts made on a discussion forum way too seriously. Either way, stop.
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