Pattaya

[defxor]

it overall just confirms what a bad choice that place is for a conference, which would promote Bitcoin in the public mind, as opposed to some other kind of conference.

From what I can see there are still no comments on how the above can be true yet Thailand's biggest financial institution and first official bank held an expo on money there in 2009.

But why discuss something that would be relevant?

[1715098719]

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[Colargol]

it overall just confirms what a bad choice that place is for a conference, which would promote Bitcoin in the public mind, as opposed to some other kind of conference.

From what I can see there are still no comments on how the above can be true yet Thailand's biggest financial institution and first official bank held an expo on money there in 2009.

But why discuss something that would be relevant?

If you can't see the difference between traditional banks and the well established, status quo, of current monetary systems and what they would be wanting to do at a conference and this new Bitcoin stuff and what we would/should (imo) want to be doing with Bitcoin conferences then I can't help you... sorry. 

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I started this thread to hopefully discuss Pattaya as being a bad choice as far as the betterment for Bitcoin is concerned. That was all! It may have proved to be the tipping point for Bruce to remove his avatar and declare his leaving of this forum to start up two new Bitcoin forums.

Upon seeing a Bitcoin leader act this why:

If I were an investor in Bitcoin, I would now sell, sell, sell.
If I were a troll, I would say, "Good."

But, I'm neither. All I have to say is, "This sucks!"

Anybody now reading this from the outside who's considering Bitcoin is saying to themselves, "What a bunch of Yo-Yos."



Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

[BitcoinStars.com]

“He liked to observe emotions; they were like red lanterns strung along the dark unknown of another's personality, marking vulnerable points.”

Ayn Rand

[DrYe5]

For anyone's information, Thailand is extremely strict about child abuse.   Mess around with anyone under 18 and you are SURE to find yourself in a Thai prison for life.    In New York City ( the states of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut ), the legal age of consent is 17.   In Thailand, the age is 18.    And EVERYONE checks... in three ways.    So if anyone is thinking about going to Thailand for child-sex....  You'd better think again!     It's not going to happen there without severe consequences.

Hmmm.... Unbiased disagreement disagrees.

We need a Forum for open adult discussion.

Yeah, like a Thai resort with an "anything goes" attitude! If your goal is to increase bitcoin's negative stigma, congrats.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

“He liked to observe emotions; they were like red lanterns strung along the dark unknown of another's personality, marking vulnerable points.”

Ayn Rand

I'm now wondering if I interrupted a man's holiday plans.

Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

[The_Duke]

From what I can see there are still no comments on how the above can be true yet Thailand's biggest financial institution and first official bank held an expo on money there in 2009.

But why discuss something that would be relevant?

The public mass that we are trying to reach has never even heard of thailands first bank. So when they hear "bitcoin in pattaya" they will not think "wow, bitcoin ... money... big bank... financial prowess".
The public mass knows pattaya for different things and they will think "omfg, bitcoin... pedophiles... child prostition" and couple it to the bad image of drugs and money laundering it already has now. You need to realise that in the public opinion what is truth and what is perceived truth are two very different things. You can look at it as we do to anything Brace Wagner says. We know it comes out of his mouth, but we understand that only 2% of it is... actually... true

[wolftaur]

You know, it took me a while to actually figure out what my real problem with all of this was. But now that I have figured it out? I'm going to lay it out in detail.

I have some very serious issues with Bruce trying to style himself as the big loud public voice of Bitcoin.

Now, the vast majority of the time, I'd consider my sexuality to be completely irrelevant in any sort of online discussion. However, in light of Bruce labeling the forum users as "overrun by 98% 13-year-old children" and me suspecting he may have persecution issues because of that, I'm going to head this right off at the pass and eliminate any chance I get lumped as a "child" because of some thought that I'm only "trolling" because I'm a homophobe or something.

When I first saw the Bitcoin show, one of my first impressions? Hey, Bruce is pretty cute. Nice calves, by the way. Yeah, I'm a leg guy. Shame I couldn't see higher than I could in the video. I'd describe some of the outfits I wouldn't mind seeing you wear, actually, but I fear if I actually get going I'm gonna get banned from the forum... I do have a pretty dirty mind when it comes right down to it.

Not, however, so dirty that I look at Pattaya as a conference location and don't have a fair bit of trepidation. I wouldn't want to go there. I've known people who have gone there, including an ex-boyfriend of mine. The kind of stuff we did behind locked doors? The fact Pattaya made him uncomfortable means I ain't going there.

All of which is besides the point entirely. Who gets turned on by what isn't even the issue. The issue is that Pattaya has a reputation that makes a great many people uncomfortable. The issue is that Pattaya is making some of your actual potential audience uncomfortable. I honestly don't care what you or anyone else does there: you cannot demand that everyone else be comfortable.

Your thinking that you can be the voice of Bitcoin, while ignoring the concerns of a large number of bitcoin users actually commenting on the subject, is pretty arrogant. It's also, sadly, about what we've come to expect from you when it comes right down to it.

There's another thread opened about collecting ten thousand dollars worth of Bitcoins to hold in escrow so that it can be donated to a charity if they agree to accept Bitcoin. Guess who's going to escrow them? Oh, that's right. Bruce Wagner was volunteered for that.

On the one hand, I think the very notion of trusting someone who lost 25,000 bitcoins to the mybitcoin fiasco is pretty stupid. On the other hand...

Hey, Bruce, pull your head out of what going by the rest of you I'm assuming is a pretty nice butt.

If a bunch of "13-year-old children" are concerned about a Bitcoin association with Pattaya, what do you think the United Way would think of it? Do you think they're going to want Bitcoins if that's the public association?

So we have a Bitcoin spokesman who on the one hand cannot figure out how to secure a Bitcoin, and on the other hand clearly thinks he's smarter than ... um, well, I guess I'm a 13 year old because I think the idea of Pattaya as a conference location is a bad one.

I guess at least one thirteen year old knows how to secure a wallet and didn't lose all his coins (or, in fact, any of his coins ever) then.

(Oh, by the way, Bruce, I'm just going by visuals here, but I'm pretty sure I'm older than you are...)

Then there's the fact that, well... I watched the bitcoin show Bruce does. It was the one where he was interviewing MagicalTux about the Mt.Gox hack. I'm sitting there on IRC trying to pose a bunch of questions. A whole bunch of people at one point were copy-pasting one of my questions over and over, because I apparently asked something everyone wanted to know. Bruce, of course, tried to evade the question -- guess he didn't want to lose a sponsor. Come to think of it, I recall a ton of public calls asking him to stop endorsing mybitcoin at the early signs of trouble...

And then there's the last Bitcoin conference Bruce played a big part of. I seem to recall a lot of public commentary about what a letdown that was, that nothing came out of it in terms of information and the like... Now, as I understand it there were some mitigating circumstances, but...

Bruce? You remind me of my first boyfriend. Cute, eager to be the center of attention, and didn't know what the hell he was doing. Start listening to your partners, which in this case is the entire bitcoin community, or we're all going to end up with a figurative scar just like the one I still have on my, well.

No, not there, but you know what I mean. That is, at least, if you actually stopped to consider any of this instead of just assuming that if I don't agree with you, I'm a 13 year old troll who is obviously wrong.

Everyone else? Let's just keep our eyes open for a spokesman who understands the technology he or she is talking about, instead of losing his coins and those of many of his friends and audience because it was easier to trust an unknown party than figure out backing up a wallet.dat ...

[BkkCoins]

As I said above, I've lived in Thailand for more than 8 years. And I'm not 13... I'm almost 50 now and retired. And I certainly don't base my idea of Pattaya off Hollywood movies. They may hold conferences there sometimes but it's certainly not a top conference spot and the post above that lists some conferences that happened isn't very encouraging either judging from the slim list of past ones held there.

Anyone pushing for holding the conference there must have some other agenda because it's very obviously not based on what's best or most suitable for the Bitcoin image.

I recall now a few years back when I lived near Hua Hin. There was two Russian girls who got shot dead on the beach apparently related to some hit or mafia involvement. Most of the stuff that goes on there doesn't even make the news due to corruption. Yech.

[BkkCoins]

But, I'm neither. All I have to say is, "This sucks!"

Anybody now reading this from the outside who's considering Bitcoin is saying to themselves, "What a bunch of Yo-Yos."

I'm a keen BitCoiner and miner too.
And still I feel this way a lot when reading the forum posts here.
BitCoin is a great idea that right now is being held back by lack of cohesion and by Yo-Yos.
Which reminds me that there is a reason why large corporations control the world...

[repentance]

For anyone's information, Thailand is extremely strict about child abuse.   Mess around with anyone under 18 and you are SURE to find yourself in a Thai prison for life.    In New York City ( the states of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut ), the legal age of consent is 17.   In Thailand, the age is 18.    And EVERYONE checks... in three ways.    So if anyone is thinking about going to Thailand for child-sex....  You'd better think again!     It's not going to happen there without severe consequences.

Hmmm.... Unbiased disagreement disagrees.

We need a Forum for open adult discussion.

Yeah, like a Thai resort with an "anything goes" attitude! If your goal is to increase bitcoin's negative stigma, congrats.

A number of countries including my own introduced laws enabling them to prosecute their citizens for sexual offences against children committed abroad precisely because sexual tourism to countries where child prostitution is endemic and the local authorities either turn a blind eye to or are actively involved in the commercial sexual exploitation of children.

Perhaps Bruce was so dazzled by the limo service provided by the hotel (something which is pretty standard throughout SE Asia and not unusual elsewhere either) that he was blind to everything else around him in Pattaya when he visited.  Given how impressed he seems to be that food and alcohol will be provided on the "world cruise", I wonder what he'll fail to notice going on around him on that adventure.

[The_Duke]

I would like to hear from Bruce *why* he wants to go to Pattaya so badly. There must be some reason that is not bitcoin related. That wouldn't be such a big deal if he just shared the reason with us. If there was no such reason, then I'm sure he would have said:

"Ok fine, if so many people seem to get upset over Pattaya as a location, then lets pick CityX in Thailand, what do I care."

But he doesn't. Rather than just listing to the arguments he stubbornly defends Pattaya. There's a motive behind that, so come on Bruce, let's hear it. What personal motive do you have for Pattaya as a location?

[repentance]

I would like to hear from Bruce *why* he wants to go to Pattaya so badly. There must be some reason that is not bitcoin related. That wouldn't be such a big deal if he just shared the reason with us. If there was no such reason, then I'm sure he would have said:

"Ok fine, if so many people seem to get upset over Pattaya as a location, then lets pick CityX in Thailand, what do I care."

But he doesn't. Rather than just listing to the arguments he stubbornly defends Pattaya. There's a motive behind that, so come on Bruce, let's hear it. What personal motive do you have for Pattaya as a location?

He's already declared that he's not posting here any more and the new forum he set up earlier today only lasted a few hours.  Unless he makes an OnlyOneTV episode about the whole Pattaya controversy, I doubt he's going to be doing any explaining.

[The_Duke]

He's busy right now.
[...]
 Ask him a question and he'll probably answer.

I think I just asked him. On this forum.
I fail to see how all of us emailing him would help him being less busy?

I already voiced all these opinions last night and got a very mature response that I feel settles it

Please feel free to help Bruce with the immense stress of being so busy he cannot post publicly anymore and share his response with us.

He needs a PR team.

Maybe his ego does, but for the rest I've not seem him do anything that would really require a team working for him.

[wolftaur]

Maybe his ego does, but for the rest I've not seem him do anything that would really require a team working for him.

That right there is the whole problem.

The self-appointed voice of Bitcoin is a child who gets pissed as soon as someone doesn't agree with him and proceeds to insult everyone arbitrarily. Thirteen year olds, I believe it was, that we have all now been labeled as.

He isn't losing faith in the forum, he's just unwilling to show up now that it's gotten enough users that there are multiple voices that don't agree with him.

The excuse about him being "too busy" to ignore the largest collection of users I am aware of for the project he's supposedly busy with is pretty asinine too. I mean, seriously...

If the top-ranking executive officer of Goldman-Sachs said "Oh, I'm too busy to look at any of today's economic news, I haven't read a stock report in two years, and I don't even know if they still trade silver or coal" they'd lose a hell of a lot of customers and prestige, I would think.

And frankly, the "he's busy" response is a crock of shit anyway. He had the time to insult everyone posting in this thread... along with saying very little about the fact some people were uncomfortable. He tried to, well, dispel the myths -- and completely ignored the obvious fact that most of us are more worried about public perception. Unless he thinks his post here is being printed in newspapers around the country, his entire post was about insulting us, and then trying to claim we were wrong -- about the wrong thing.

[defxor]

most of us are more worried

There's still not a single tangible fact to back up those worries posted in this thread. I can only assume a lot of people aren't used to having to base their opinions on facts.

Anyone can claim anything. It's how you support your claims that makes a difference. Trolls cannot usually back up their claims.

[wolftaur]

most of us are more worried

There's still not a single tangible fact to back up those worries posted in this thread. I can only assume a lot of people aren't used to having to base their opinions on facts.

Anyone can claim anything. It's how you support your claims that makes a difference. Trolls cannot usually back up their claims.

I was referring to much of the commentary in this thread itself, not saying "most of the community." Local reference, not global.

Some of the posts in this thread had specifically stated concern about Pattaya's reputation being associated with Bitcoin if a conference is held there. And honestly, even if that's the minority view...

Minority viewpoints are equally entitled to recognition and consideration. If one in 100 people worry about whether hosting a Bitcoin conference in a place that has a reputation for child prostitution and other things that make many average people squeamish, hell, if one in a thousand worry about that...

No, I am not trolling. I mean, seriously. I became a grown man multiple decades ago and my mother still warns me that I'd better be careful on the internet because "that's how people get raped." Considering that my mother isn't even close to the only person I know with that kind of paranoia, yes, I do wonder how I could explain Bitcoin to some of the people I know if we see "Currency conference marred by child sex scandal" or anything like that in even a minor newspaper or online news aggregator.

I live in a very conservative area -- one which happens to have a pretty large number of financial businesses. I worked in that industry for a few years. If Bitcoin started becoming practical I actually still have many connections in this area and could probably get several businesses to seriously consider accepting Bitcoins. Except for one problem: When I say "conservative area", I mean very. I'm the only gay person in my entire neighborhood. I'm the only person on this block who does not have three or more children. A few minutes ago I sent a PM to someone wanting to pay for some printing work, with bitcoins. I can probably actually arrange that with a local printer, the guy was a former client of my last employer, and personally owes me some huge favors right now.

The guy is also the director of his local church.

So, what it boils down to right now? I'm aware of a specific business I have a very good chance of getting to accept Bitcoins, which is what poster after poster after poster is claiming we need, businesses accepting Bitcoins, merchants letting us spend them.

I even know of a heavy user in this forum who wanted that service for Bitcoin enough to publicly ask about it.

And I know how conservative and religious and church-affiliated the business is. As a result, I have good reason to believe that if I could get him to take bitcoins, he would drop Bitcoin like a hot chunk of uranium if he thought his neighbors and religious clients thought the currency was used for child prostitution. And while were at it, let's be blunt, lots of these people aren't exactly great about getting their facts right before they pour out the "OH GOD YOU PERVERT" stuff, so the fact that "conference held in area where this has happened in the past" is not the same as "conference was about using this money for THAT" is pretty irrelevant...

[wolftaur]

There's some serious misunderstanding going on here. He's referring to SA forum mem ers as 13 year olds, and he thinks you're all from there to troll.

Email him or skype him. He'll respond. And I was surprised last night myself to find out exactly whst he is doing. He's busy. I'm not his PR worker or anything, but we havr mutual interests and he doesn't letbthe forum slow him down. Also, why have I seen so
mich disinformation about the conference? Is e eryond aware that there was press there? That over 150 people came? I don't blame him for ignoring the forums these days, but his belief that getting work done for the outside work is far more important than making a few forum members happy, not his ego, are the reason for his attitude recently.

I am not a Bruce fan. I have openly criticized him here, but in watching some of the overly judgmental and outright fabricated accusations against him as reason to hate him, I'm coming closer and closer to wanting to work with him.

Email him. He answerred all my questions live for about 3 hours last night on skype. It is not ego, its misunderstanding the intentions. He thinks you're all noise. Tone down the jumping to conclusions, be ready to give the benefit of the doubt, and contact him directly as a concerned member of the forum.  

I'm always willing to try my best to give someone a fair and honest chance, so I will try that tomorrow. Though in all honesty... I do have to say, it does tend to get me on edge that the first post I made on this thread, I was trying quite hard to be direct and honest, I wasn't trying to insult someone, I stated (and honestly, I think I stated it in a pretty unprovocative way) what my concern was...

And the first thing I see from Bruce answering it is "This thread, like most of the threads in this forum, has become overrun by 98% 13-year-old children who are making a concerted trolling attack on the Bitcoin Forums." I don't think I misunderstood that at all, I don't actually see how I can construe that as referring to the members of another forum. "It is very sad that it is destroying the Bitcoin Community's central point of communication.    Oh for the "old days" when adults discussed topics relevant to bitcoin... with other adults... here in these forums."

That is not a misunderstanding. He referred to the posters on this thread. Repeatedly and directly. Along with the posters on this forum in general. Directly. (Also, I have no idea how the conclusion he's referring to members of another forum can be drawn there at all.)

So, yes, tomorrow I will try contacting him more directly and trying to tell him exactly what it is that I, personally, find troubling about the proposed location. But, no, I am not jumping to conclusions, or misunderstanding, about the fact that there were things said in this thread that I think were obviously not intended to troll, and Bruce just jumped on the tired old "poor me" definition of

troll, n. Person who dares to not agree with me in public.

If you've guessed that I find the application of the T-word for that use to be offensive, you've guessed correctly. I suppose it's entirely possible he's misinterpreted some, or lumped the behavior of some trolls in with everyone, but to be honest, in either case then he's jumping to conclusions just as much as you seem to be accusing me of.

[BkkCoins]

most of us are more worried

There's still not a single tangible fact to back up those worries posted in this thread. I can only assume a lot of people aren't used to having to base their opinions on facts.

Anyone can claim anything. It's how you support your claims that makes a difference. Trolls cannot usually back up their claims.

It's not a matter of opinion that Pattaya has a poor reputation. Everyone in this country KNOWS it as a center for the sex industry and other illegal activities. If you don't know that then you plainly have no idea what you're talking about. The question is whether Bitcoins need to be making headlines holding a conference there. I'd vote no.

[wolftaur]

You're right. To clarify also, the othrr forum members create spam accounts to come to this forum and troll people for shits and giggles. For anyone who's not watching both forums avidly, there's no way of knowing who is a spy dicking around and who is a seriously concerned individual. Its become a moot point however sinve he's gone now.

I can understand that. We have a similar problem on another place I hang out online -- people will frequently bypass ignore settings and administrative cease-contact orders by just making new accounts with a new anonymous e-mail address. At one point some truly pathetic moron who clearly had nothing better to do had amassed more than three hundred logins, all used at least four times a week. I was one of the tech staff the administrators suckered into spending three weeks going through system logs to help them find all those accounts to ban them. :/