Double geometric method: Hopping-proof, low-variance reward system

[Graet]

Ozcoin Pooled Mining now offers DGM 

Thanks Meni 

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[Meni Rosenfeld]

Ozcoin Pooled Mining now offers DGM 

Thanks Meni 

Cool. Good luck.

[kano]

Ozcoin Pooled Mining now offers DGM 

Thanks Meni 

Cool. Good luck.

So ... how does this fare with someone who only mines 18 hours a day?

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Ozcoin Pooled Mining now offers DGM 

Thanks Meni 

Cool. Good luck.

So ... how does this fare with someone who only mines 18 hours a day?

On average you get exactly your fair reward, with a relatively low variance.

[kano]

Ozcoin Pooled Mining now offers DGM  

Thanks Meni  

Cool. Good luck.

So ... how does this fare with someone who only mines 18 hours a day?

On average you get exactly your fair reward, with a relatively low variance.

"Fair reward" is a meaningless statement as you well know.

But these 'geometric' methods are affected by start/stop times to deal with hoppers.
Basically the whole reason they exist.

So it has NO negative effect at all on someone who stops and starts mining?
Or are you just using that vague "Fair" word to mean your definition of "Fair" is that yes you will get less BTC because that's fair?

[organofcorti]

Ozcoin Pooled Mining now offers DGM  

Thanks Meni  

Cool. Good luck.

So ... how does this fare with someone who only mines 18 hours a day?

On average you get exactly your fair reward, with a relatively low variance.

"Fair reward" is a meaningless statement as you well know.

But these 'geometric' methods are affected by start/stop times to deal with hoppers.
Basically the whole reason they exist.

So it has NO negative effect at all on someone who stops and starts mining?
Or are you just using that vague "Fair" word to mean your definition of "Fair" is that yes you will get less BTC because that's fair?

Could you be a little clearer? It's easier to show you where you're wrong if I can follow what you mean.

To start with, what does

But these 'geometric' methods are affected by start/stop times to deal with hoppers.
Basically the whole reason they exist.

mean?

[Meni Rosenfeld]

"Fair reward" is a meaningless statement as you well know.

By "fair reward" I mean pB per share, where p = 1/difficulty at the time the share was submitted and B is the block reward at the time the share was submitted. This is what you'd get with PPS (disregarding fees).

If you use a mining reward calculator to find what you'll get per day for mining with your hashrate, then for mining 18 hours per day you'll get on average exactly 3/4 of that amount - the reward is proportional to the work you put in. If you mine for a minute a day you'll get on average 1/1440 (1440 minutes in a day) of what you'd get for mining the whole day with the same hashrate, though your variance will be high (though not nearly as high as with high-variance methods like Geometric).

But these 'geometric' methods are affected by start/stop times to deal with hoppers.
Basically the whole reason they exist.

This indicates a misunderstanding of how these methods work. DGM doesn't care at all when you started or stopped mining. It doesn't try to detect hoppers and punish them. It rewards each share separately, in a way that is independent of the past and thus does not offer any incentive to hop.

So it has NO negative effect at all on someone who stops and starts mining?

Correct.

Or are you just using that vague "Fair" word to mean your definition of "Fair" is that yes you will get less BTC because that's fair?

I think you'll find that my interpretation of "fair" as described above is reasonable.

[Inaba]

Some of the confusion I think I'm seeing with DGM is the lag time between cause and effect.  Most people seem to have figured it out, but occasionally there will be some new people or what have you that don't understand that what you do right now won't necessarily affect your payout for another 4 - 7 blocks.

For example, on EMC, if you stop mining right now, your Proportional Differential will be higher than if you had kept mining for the current block.  However, 4 - 7 blocks down the road, your prop differential is going to start taking a bit of a dive until it evens out the increase you saw on the block you stopped mining on, then it will start picking back up to neutral territory.

It makes for some confusing cause and effect if you aren't prepared for it or understand what's going on. 

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Some of the confusion I think I'm seeing with DGM is the lag time between cause and effect.  Most people seem to have figured it out, but occasionally there will be some new people or what have you that don't understand that what you do right now won't necessarily affect your payout for another 4 - 7 blocks.
...
It makes for some confusing cause and effect if you aren't prepared for it or understand what's going on. 

I like to think of it as a capacitor. If you have a light bulb and capacitor in parallel connected to a DC source, the bulb won't be lit right away. As the capacitor charges more current is routed through the bulb and it becomes brighter, until it reaches its maximum brightness as if there was no capacitor. If the power source is disconnected, the bulb gradually fades as the capacitor discharges its stored energy through the bulb. No energy is lost.

Of course there are many other real-life examples of this dynamic. Electric radiative space heaters come to mind - you turn them on and only after a while they become hot and heat the room. The dynamic is the same also quantitatively - in all 3 cases it can be modeled with (dx / dt) = a - bx, where a becomes 0 when the source is discontinued, and where x is itself the derivative of some quantity of interest.

For example, on EMC, if you stop mining right now, your Proportional Differential will be higher than if you had kept mining for the current block.  However, 4 - 7 blocks down the road, your prop differential is going to start taking a bit of a dive until it evens out the increase you saw on the block you stopped mining on, then it will start picking back up to neutral territory.

This comment confused me until I realized you meant that you stop mining and resume sometime later.

[Inaba]

Yes, a capacitor is a good analogy, though I think the heater is a better layman description for people to get the concept.  I think I'll use that going forward. 

Sorry about being confusing, I actually thought to myself I should clarify that but then promptly forgot to do so before posting. But yes, I did mean to imply that you resumed mining at some point.

[kano]

"Fair reward" is a meaningless statement as you well know.

By "fair reward" I mean pB per share, where p = 1/difficulty at the time the share was submitted and B is the block reward at the time the share was submitted. This is what you'd get with PPS (disregarding fees).

If you use a mining reward calculator to find what you'll get per day for mining with your hashrate, then for mining 18 hours per day you'll get on average exactly 3/4 of that amount - the reward is proportional to the work you put in. If you mine for a minute a day you'll get on average 1/1440 (1440 minutes in a day) of what you'd get for mining the whole day with the same hashrate, though your variance will be high (though not nearly as high as with high-variance methods like Geometric).

But these 'geometric' methods are affected by start/stop times to deal with hoppers.
Basically the whole reason they exist.

This indicates a misunderstanding of how these methods work. DGM doesn't care at all when you started or stopped mining. It doesn't try to detect hoppers and punish them. It rewards each share separately, in a way that is independent of the past and thus does not offer any incentive to hop.
...

Sorry - they were also meant to be "?" like the 2 lines after them

[-ck]

Don't forget to poll every DGM pool to find which is currently paying the most per share and hop to that site till the value drops on the next block they find...

Edit: If it wasn't obvious, this was me explaining how DGM is hoppable.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Don't forget to poll every DGM pool to find which is currently paying the most per share and hop to that site till the value drops on the next block they find...

Edit: If it wasn't obvious, this was me explaining how DGM is hoppable.

Yes, it was obvious that you do not understand how DGM works. DGM is hopping-proof, the expected payout per share is constant.

[Inaba]

I don't see how you explain DGM is hoppable - can you explain exactly which/what pools list an amount they are paying per share?  There's exactly two DGM pools that I know of and neither of them pay a set amount per share.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

I don't see how you explain DGM is hoppable - can you explain exactly which/what pools list an amount they are paying per share?  There's exactly two DGM pools that I know of and neither of them pay a set amount per share.

Presumably he means checking the parameters of each pool and its current state and calculate the reward from this... Which leads us back to the the expected reward being completely independent of the current state, since it depends only on the future and not the past.

[kano]

Hmm will be interesting to see my total payout after I stop mining Ozcoin some time in the future (also after I get all the after amounts)
Coz I joined them a few days ago when their luck was showing high, but I guess that doesn't mean I get more ...

[-ck]

http://ozco.in/content/share-payout-comparison-bitcoin

It seems to me if a pool has a long enough run of luck, you join in and benefit while the value slowly works its way back down as the luck turns.

[-ck]

http://ozco.in/content/share-payout-comparison-bitcoin

It seems to me if a pool has a long enough run of luck, you join in and benefit while the value slowly works its way back down as the luck turns.

By the way, I'm not saying this disadvantages the long term miners in any way...

[kano]

Yep Hopping doesn't have to mean your gain is someone else's loss.
Maybe many think those two ideas are directly connected - but obviously in this case - they aren't.
What I guess DGM does is allow you to capitalise on the fact that when a pool is lucky, that luck extends beyond the time when it occurs
Thus you can get part of that luck after the fact.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

In the capacitor analogy, every miner has a capacitor which is charged as he submits shares, and its charge level affects how much he gets per future block found. The pool at large does not have a capacitor which charges as blocks are found and affects the reward for future shares submitted. The pool's history has no effect whatsoever on the rewards for future shares.

Hmm will be interesting to see my total payout after I stop mining Ozcoin some time in the future (also after I get all the after amounts)
Coz I joined them a few days ago when their luck was showing high, but I guess that doesn't mean I get more ...

The pool's luck in the past has no effect on your rewards. The pool's luck only affects you if your capacitor is charged at the time.

It seems to me if a pool has a long enough run of luck, you join in and benefit while the value slowly works its way back down as the luck turns.

No. If you read the method's description you'll see that finding a block has two effects:
1. Giving out rewards to miners who currently have a score
2. Decrease the score of miners who currently have a score
It has no effect whatsoever on future miners (or on the rewards of current miners for shares they will submit in the future - only those that they submitted in the past).

Yep Hopping doesn't have to mean your gain is someone else's loss.
Maybe many think those two ideas are directly connected - but obviously in this case - they aren't.

Yes it does. With a given total hashrate, a pool's average reward is constant. If one miner gets on average more than his fair share, it means another gets less. In a hopping-proof method like DGM everyone gets their fair share on average.

What I guess DGM does is allow you to capitalise on the fact that when a pool is lucky, that luck extends beyond the time when it occurs
Thus you can get part of that luck after the fact.

Absolutely not. The luck extends backward in time, not forward. You can't get part of the luck after the fact.

To be completely honest, I'm growing weary of having to repeat the same thing over and over again.