Are smear campains and character assasination OK on these forums?

[Nefario]

This is a question I have to ask, I've just started going over the absolute fiasco that is the whole Bruce Wagner smear campain. I'd pm'd theymos (admin) about a post on this topic and he's OK with this.

Should we allow the bitcoin forums to become a place where someones sexuality comes under question (and is used in an attempt to smear a person)?

It's even gotten to the point where he's being accused of being a pedophile, this is the ultimate slur and character killer that, if it takes hold (which it has) is is totally destructive.

Should we as a community allow the kinds of "We'll he hasn't denied being a pedo therefor he's guilty" shit that's going on.

And it's not even direct accusations just things like "he's connected with ...", things that are technically true (he is connected because he's been accused of it).

Do we really want to let this witchunt become a part of our community?

I don't know Bruce personally, I've talked a little with him over skype about things where I am regarding bitcoin and thats it. I don't even watch his show.

I've just browsed over the threads but haven't come across any hard evidence, so unless said evidence appears should we not put an end to this line of discussion?

Nefario.

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[wolftaur]

This is a question I have to ask, I've just started going over the absolute fiasco that is the whole Bruce Wagner smear campain. I'd pm'd theymos (admin) about a post on this topic and he's OK with this.

Should we allow the bitcoin forums to become a place where someones sexuality comes under question (and is used in an attempt to smear a person)?

It's even gotten to the point where he's being accused of being a pedophile, this is the ultimate slur and character killer that, if it takes hold (which it has) is is totally destructive.

Should we as a community allow the kinds of "We'll he hasn't denied being a pedo therefor he's guilty" shit that's going on.

After I read some of his commentary on things like rape I think I can safely say I'm not sure it's actually possible for me to dislike him any more than I already do.

That said? I've said in multiple threads now, and I will say it again. Everyone accusing Bruce of being a pedophile? Prove it or shut the fuck up.

I have major problems with Bruce for things that have been demonstrated to be true. Nobody has demonstrated Bruce is a pedophile. Just accusation and innuendo and wink-wink 'evidence' that wouldn't stand up to a sneeze from across the room. I have as much disdain for the people who are lying about Bruce and slandering him as I do for Bruce. Why? Because "innocent until proven guilty" applies to everyone, not just people I like. And because "basic civil rights" applies to everyone, not just people I'm on good terms with.

[The_Duke]

I've only seen a rare comment here and there saying that he would be a pedophile and I agree that those are unjust.

What *I* have been saying is that Bruce is now linked to Pattaya for reasons *other* than bitcoin. It was quoted before, coming from his own hand on sites that have nothing to do with bitcoin.
That makes his comments about Pattaya and the location choice being purely for economical and locational reasons completely unbelievable. Even worse, it makes him look very foolish when he is telling others to STFU about wanting another location. He is stubbornly defending doing something that a lot of people are at best very sceptical about. And now we know why.

The problem with that is that it affects ANYONE who has something invested in bitcoins. Stubbornly sticking to Pattaya to host a bitcoin conference and THEN being found elsewhere on the net talking about Pattaya as a sex resort (comments he has since been removing by the way) will affect anyone who has been doing stuff with bitcoins.
If you have told your friends and family about bitcoin, chances are that they will now somewhere read about bitcoin+pattaya+some_guy_called_bruce+sex. And then come back to you to ask questions about it. And *that* is something you can simply blame Bruce for. Not for being a pedophile, because we don't know that. But for harming bitcoins reputation in a serious way that could have been easily avoided.

It could all have been solved when after the first storm of comments on Pattaya came, Bruce would have said: "Hmm ok, I see a lot of people have issues with that location. It's just a location, so lets pick another place." But it is clear that Pattaya is more than "just a bitcoin meeting location to Bruce. And even with THAT I don't have a real problem *if* he had just been honest about it.

[makomk]

What *I* have been saying is that Bruce is now linked to Pattaya for reasons *other* than bitcoin. It was quoted before, coming from his own hand on sites that have nothing to do with bitcoin.

Bit more than that. He'd talked about paying for sex with "boys", in an area of Thailand rife with underage prostitution, in a thread about buying sex with virgins. Even if the boys were indeed of age it's still creepy as fuck and likely to bring Bitcoin into further disrepute.

[theymos]

Here is the topic Nefario deleted:

Bruce Wagner, Pattaya, and Child Sex

This issue needs adult attention.

Bruce Wagner has planed a future bitcoin convention in Pattaya, a city in Thailand particularly noted for its sex tourism, including child sex. This is not good for bitcoin.

Under the username "punlman", one of Bruce's psudonyms, he describe himself as "a patron of the boys of Pattaya". Bruce should be discouraged from further representing bitcoin.

Here are the details of user "punlman" on that forum, matching Bruce.

Here is one of many associations of Bruce with the username "punlman".

The community needs to be aware of this and act accordingly.

I don't agree with some of the conclusions of this post, but the facts and arguments seem reasonable (i.e., non-insane) to me. It's something that should be discussed on the forum so it can be straightened out.

[kokjo]

It's something that should be discussed on the forum so it can be straightened out.

+1

[wolftaur]

What *I* have been saying is that Bruce is now linked to Pattaya for reasons *other* than bitcoin. It was quoted before, coming from his own hand on sites that have nothing to do with bitcoin.

Bit more than that. He'd talked about paying for sex with "boys", in an area of Thailand rife with underage prostitution, in a thread about buying sex with virgins. Even if the boys were indeed of age it's still creepy as fuck and likely to bring Bitcoin into further disrepute.

Honestly, that really is circumstantial. There are several slang uses of the term 'boys.' I happen to be more than a little acquainted with several of them.

For example, you could be male, and 32, and living in my house. Doing my housework and cooking, and "other favors." Occasional spankings if you're naughty. The proper term for you would be 'boy', because you're younger than I am.

If you're male and anywhere from 18 to 80, and you and I are in a relationship, and you're wearing the dog collar, then you are also 'boy.'

Wrestling-for-top? For whatever portion of the match you're pinned to the floor, you're "boy."

I could actually go on for at least a few screenfuls here, but I think I have made my point quite sufficiently.

Knock it off with the pedophile accusations. None of you has posted any evidence, or even strong indication, that he's a pedophile. You are however doing a wonderful job of illustrating you know nothing of the kinky scene lingo whatsoever.

Got proof he's a pedophile, go for it. But so far nobody's even given a valid basis to suggest it.

[Tasty Champa]

This is a witch hunt.

you guys will just burn yourselves and your own houses in the process.

while whomever is behind it is getting lulz.

[makomk]

Honestly, that really is circumstantial. There are several slang uses of the term 'boys.' I happen to be more than a little acquainted with several of them.

I've come across several of them too, and they even have a lot in common with your list there. I'm really not convinced any of them apply in this case, and even if they did it'd still be pretty creepy; I somehow doubt your average Thai rentboy is expecting to be "wearing the dog collar" and I'd question how consensual any such arrangement could be.

[Chris Acheson]

I don't agree with some of the conclusions of this post, but the facts and arguments seem reasonable (i.e., non-insane) to me. It's something that should be discussed on the forum so it can be straightened out.

Agreed.  In my opinion, Bruce has gone from being mostly neutral for Bitcoin's image to being an enormous liability.  The community should distance itself from him and not allow him to act as a spokesperson anymore.

[The_Duke]

Agreed.  In my opinion, Bruce has gone from being mostly neutral for Bitcoin's image to being an enormous liability.  The community should distance itself from him and not allow him to act as a spokesperson anymore.

After seeying the first posts by Bruce about... ALL THE... TRULY... AWESOME THING HIS... bitoin... CONFERENCE... would have, I already felt Bruce was stepping way across some boundaries by pretending to be anything "official" to bitcoin. The problem is... this is all open source, so it's kinda hard to prevent.
Tomorrow, Muammar Khadaffi might flee to Algeria, and proclaim he is now the official Bitcoin spokesman and he will host awesome conferences in his big tent. And there's nothing we could do about it.

[aq]

I think the whole thing got out of control.
We are seeing the same practice all over the world. Government bodies are arguing that to prevent child porn the whole internet must be filtered and censored. Of course this is not true, and is used only to establish a censoring machine through the back door. However, this works because once the stupiduninformed mass hears child porn, they vote for everything, even if this means total loss of privacy and establishing a police state.
Enter bitcoin - a currency invented to get rid of central authorities. At the moment a few forum members use the same tactic to drive their own agenda. Someone yells "child abuse", and in an instant a witch hunt starts. Apparently the government used scheme works on this very forum too. Previously I was under the impression that people that get into bitcoin are not as stupidclueless as the average mass. Either I was wrong or bitcoin has already reached the average mass.
The sad thing is, that by judging from the government success rate all over the world using this flawed argument, I think those elements could succeed here too. And even moderator level members have joint the witch hunt.
It feels like we are watching the self destruction of bitcoin: if you cant destroy it, join it and destroy it from within.

[wolftaur]

Honestly, that really is circumstantial. There are several slang uses of the term 'boys.' I happen to be more than a little acquainted with several of them.

I've come across several of them too, and they even have a lot in common with your list there. I'm really not convinced any of them apply in this case, and even if they did it'd still be pretty creepy; I somehow doubt your average Thai rentboy is expecting to be "wearing the dog collar" and I'd question how consensual any such arrangement could be.

It depends if the guy's an adult. If he's an adult he can consent. If he's desperate for the money then that's not actually consent... Just because someone wants money for it doesn't mean they don't like bondage. Doesn't mean they DO like bondage. The point is really just that we can't know for sure what Bruce was talking about. I'm not for an instant denying that he could have meant ten year olds, but his words, verbatim, could be taken in so many different fetish contexts -- and the ones that would indicate pedophilia are in the minority. That's just not enough to make a fair accusation, especially about something so inflammatory.

[The_Duke]

Enter bitcoin - a currency invented to get rid of central authorities. At the moment a few forum members use the same tactic to drive their own agenda. Someone yells "child abuse", and in an instant a witch hunt starts.

Yeah. that could be true. Only... it was not "a few forum members" who came up with the idea that Bruce should do a conference in Pattaya. It was not "a few forum members" who posted that raping a girl was basically the girls fault or at best that men could not be hold accountable for failing to control their urges. It was not "a few forum members" who posted publicly about sexual acts in Pattaya.
That was all Bruce himself.

Pointing out some shady stuff doesn't make you a witch hunter by default.

[Chris Acheson]

Agreed.  In my opinion, Bruce has gone from being mostly neutral for Bitcoin's image to being an enormous liability.  The community should distance itself from him and not allow him to act as a spokesperson anymore.

After seeying the first posts by Bruce about... ALL THE... TRULY... AWESOME THING HIS... bitoin... CONFERENCE... would have, I already felt Bruce was stepping way across some boundaries by pretending to be anything "official" to bitcoin. The problem is... this is all open source, so it's kinda hard to prevent.
Tomorrow, Muammar Khadaffi might flee to Algeria, and proclaim he is now the official Bitcoin spokesman and he will host awesome conferences in his big tent. And there's nothing we could do about it.

I mostly mean that members of the Bitcoin community shouldn't sponsor his show or attend his conferences, and that we should ask him to step back from the position that he's taken.

[The_Duke]

and that we should ask him to step back from the position that he's taken.

If that is as effictive as asking him to reconsider Pattaya as a good location for a bitcoin meeting, I'm doubtful he will listen

[Nefario]

Can we give up the ghost on this?

I didn't start this thread for people to continue on the whole Wagner thing.

Duke,wolftaur can you give it a rest.

Some suggestions on what we do from here, I don't think it's healthy for the forum to continue in this direction.

And despite some of Bruces posts I still don't think that means the guy should be hounded out.

[Tasty Champa]

No one should be treated like this guy is being treated.
It should not be allowed.

it honestly shows how easily semi-smart people with weak minds can still be manipulated by ill-willed individuals.

[The_Duke]

Some suggestions on what we do from here, I don't think it's healthy for the forum to continue in this direction.

And despite some of Bruces posts I still don't think that means the guy should be hounded out.

Ok, point taken. I suppose the whole problem about Bruce is clear enough at the moment.

Suggestions? Here's some:
1) Consider what is good for bitcoin and take action on it. If that means taking distance from someone who is (dispite maybe his good intentions) hurting (the image of) bitcoin: then do so.
2) Appoint more moderators and oversee their work. The posts in which Bruce was called a pedophile should have been promptly edited with a clear warning that such thing will not be tolerated.
3) Protect the open source nature of bitcoin. If someone is pretending to be something he can never be due to bitcoins nature, shoo him off the forums.  

[makomk]

It depends if the guy's an adult. If he's an adult he can consent. If he's desperate for the money then that's not actually consent... Just because someone wants money for it doesn't mean they don't like bondage. Doesn't mean they DO like bondage.

We're talking about mainstream prostitution establishments here, and if I understand Bruce's post and the information out there on how they work correctly there's no way to even ask that question until after you've already paid the bar's share of the money. That together with the age and power difference is coercive in itself. In fact, the thread that Bruce's post was in was about someone paying for a guy who claimed his previous client had coerced him into receiving anal sex for the first time and only paid him the equivalent of $17 for it.