Are smear campains and character assasination OK on these forums?

[Nefario]

This is a question I have to ask, I've just started going over the absolute fiasco that is the whole Bruce Wagner smear campain. I'd pm'd theymos (admin) about a post on this topic and he's OK with this.

Should we allow the bitcoin forums to become a place where someones sexuality comes under question (and is used in an attempt to smear a person)?

It's even gotten to the point where he's being accused of being a pedophile, this is the ultimate slur and character killer that, if it takes hold (which it has) is is totally destructive.

Should we as a community allow the kinds of "We'll he hasn't denied being a pedo therefor he's guilty" shit that's going on.

And it's not even direct accusations just things like "he's connected with ...", things that are technically true (he is connected because he's been accused of it).

Do we really want to let this witchunt become a part of our community?

I don't know Bruce personally, I've talked a little with him over skype about things where I am regarding bitcoin and thats it. I don't even watch his show.

I've just browsed over the threads but haven't come across any hard evidence, so unless said evidence appears should we not put an end to this line of discussion?

Nefario.

[wolftaur]

This is a question I have to ask, I've just started going over the absolute fiasco that is the whole Bruce Wagner smear campain. I'd pm'd theymos (admin) about a post on this topic and he's OK with this.

Should we allow the bitcoin forums to become a place where someones sexuality comes under question (and is used in an attempt to smear a person)?

It's even gotten to the point where he's being accused of being a pedophile, this is the ultimate slur and character killer that, if it takes hold (which it has) is is totally destructive.

Should we as a community allow the kinds of "We'll he hasn't denied being a pedo therefor he's guilty" shit that's going on.

After I read some of his commentary on things like rape I think I can safely say I'm not sure it's actually possible for me to dislike him any more than I already do.

That said? I've said in multiple threads now, and I will say it again. Everyone accusing Bruce of being a pedophile? Prove it or shut the fuck up.

I have major problems with Bruce for things that have been demonstrated to be true. Nobody has demonstrated Bruce is a pedophile. Just accusation and innuendo and wink-wink 'evidence' that wouldn't stand up to a sneeze from across the room. I have as much disdain for the people who are lying about Bruce and slandering him as I do for Bruce. Why? Because "innocent until proven guilty" applies to everyone, not just people I like. And because "basic civil rights" applies to everyone, not just people I'm on good terms with.

[The_Duke]

I've only seen a rare comment here and there saying that he would be a pedophile and I agree that those are unjust.

What *I* have been saying is that Bruce is now linked to Pattaya for reasons *other* than bitcoin. It was quoted before, coming from his own hand on sites that have nothing to do with bitcoin.
That makes his comments about Pattaya and the location choice being purely for economical and locational reasons completely unbelievable. Even worse, it makes him look very foolish when he is telling others to STFU about wanting another location. He is stubbornly defending doing something that a lot of people are at best very sceptical about. And now we know why.

The problem with that is that it affects ANYONE who has something invested in bitcoins. Stubbornly sticking to Pattaya to host a bitcoin conference and THEN being found elsewhere on the net talking about Pattaya as a sex resort (comments he has since been removing by the way) will affect anyone who has been doing stuff with bitcoins.
If you have told your friends and family about bitcoin, chances are that they will now somewhere read about bitcoin+pattaya+some_guy_called_bruce+sex. And then come back to you to ask questions about it. And *that* is something you can simply blame Bruce for. Not for being a pedophile, because we don't know that. But for harming bitcoins reputation in a serious way that could have been easily avoided.

It could all have been solved when after the first storm of comments on Pattaya came, Bruce would have said: "Hmm ok, I see a lot of people have issues with that location. It's just a location, so lets pick another place." But it is clear that Pattaya is more than "just a bitcoin meeting location to Bruce. And even with THAT I don't have a real problem *if* he had just been honest about it.

[makomk]

What *I* have been saying is that Bruce is now linked to Pattaya for reasons *other* than bitcoin. It was quoted before, coming from his own hand on sites that have nothing to do with bitcoin.

Bit more than that. He'd talked about paying for sex with "boys", in an area of Thailand rife with underage prostitution, in a thread about buying sex with virgins. Even if the boys were indeed of age it's still creepy as fuck and likely to bring Bitcoin into further disrepute.

[theymos]

Here is the topic Nefario deleted:

Bruce Wagner, Pattaya, and Child Sex

This issue needs adult attention.

Bruce Wagner has planed a future bitcoin convention in Pattaya, a city in Thailand particularly noted for its sex tourism, including child sex. This is not good for bitcoin.

Under the username "punlman", one of Bruce's psudonyms, he describe himself as "a patron of the boys of Pattaya". Bruce should be discouraged from further representing bitcoin.

Here are the details of user "punlman" on that forum, matching Bruce.

Here is one of many associations of Bruce with the username "punlman".

The community needs to be aware of this and act accordingly.

I don't agree with some of the conclusions of this post, but the facts and arguments seem reasonable (i.e., non-insane) to me. It's something that should be discussed on the forum so it can be straightened out.

[kokjo]

It's something that should be discussed on the forum so it can be straightened out.

+1

[wolftaur]

What *I* have been saying is that Bruce is now linked to Pattaya for reasons *other* than bitcoin. It was quoted before, coming from his own hand on sites that have nothing to do with bitcoin.

Bit more than that. He'd talked about paying for sex with "boys", in an area of Thailand rife with underage prostitution, in a thread about buying sex with virgins. Even if the boys were indeed of age it's still creepy as fuck and likely to bring Bitcoin into further disrepute.

Honestly, that really is circumstantial. There are several slang uses of the term 'boys.' I happen to be more than a little acquainted with several of them.

For example, you could be male, and 32, and living in my house. Doing my housework and cooking, and "other favors." Occasional spankings if you're naughty. The proper term for you would be 'boy', because you're younger than I am.

If you're male and anywhere from 18 to 80, and you and I are in a relationship, and you're wearing the dog collar, then you are also 'boy.'

Wrestling-for-top? For whatever portion of the match you're pinned to the floor, you're "boy."

I could actually go on for at least a few screenfuls here, but I think I have made my point quite sufficiently.

Knock it off with the pedophile accusations. None of you has posted any evidence, or even strong indication, that he's a pedophile. You are however doing a wonderful job of illustrating you know nothing of the kinky scene lingo whatsoever.

Got proof he's a pedophile, go for it. But so far nobody's even given a valid basis to suggest it.

[Tasty Champa]

This is a witch hunt.

you guys will just burn yourselves and your own houses in the process.

while whomever is behind it is getting lulz.

[makomk]

Honestly, that really is circumstantial. There are several slang uses of the term 'boys.' I happen to be more than a little acquainted with several of them.

I've come across several of them too, and they even have a lot in common with your list there. I'm really not convinced any of them apply in this case, and even if they did it'd still be pretty creepy; I somehow doubt your average Thai rentboy is expecting to be "wearing the dog collar" and I'd question how consensual any such arrangement could be.

[Chris Acheson]

I don't agree with some of the conclusions of this post, but the facts and arguments seem reasonable (i.e., non-insane) to me. It's something that should be discussed on the forum so it can be straightened out.

Agreed.  In my opinion, Bruce has gone from being mostly neutral for Bitcoin's image to being an enormous liability.  The community should distance itself from him and not allow him to act as a spokesperson anymore.

[The_Duke]

Agreed.  In my opinion, Bruce has gone from being mostly neutral for Bitcoin's image to being an enormous liability.  The community should distance itself from him and not allow him to act as a spokesperson anymore.

After seeying the first posts by Bruce about... ALL THE... TRULY... AWESOME THING HIS... bitoin... CONFERENCE... would have, I already felt Bruce was stepping way across some boundaries by pretending to be anything "official" to bitcoin. The problem is... this is all open source, so it's kinda hard to prevent.
Tomorrow, Muammar Khadaffi might flee to Algeria, and proclaim he is now the official Bitcoin spokesman and he will host awesome conferences in his big tent. And there's nothing we could do about it.

[aq]

I think the whole thing got out of control.
We are seeing the same practice all over the world. Government bodies are arguing that to prevent child porn the whole internet must be filtered and censored. Of course this is not true, and is used only to establish a censoring machine through the back door. However, this works because once the stupiduninformed mass hears child porn, they vote for everything, even if this means total loss of privacy and establishing a police state.
Enter bitcoin - a currency invented to get rid of central authorities. At the moment a few forum members use the same tactic to drive their own agenda. Someone yells "child abuse", and in an instant a witch hunt starts. Apparently the government used scheme works on this very forum too. Previously I was under the impression that people that get into bitcoin are not as stupidclueless as the average mass. Either I was wrong or bitcoin has already reached the average mass.
The sad thing is, that by judging from the government success rate all over the world using this flawed argument, I think those elements could succeed here too. And even moderator level members have joint the witch hunt.
It feels like we are watching the self destruction of bitcoin: if you cant destroy it, join it and destroy it from within.

[wolftaur]

Honestly, that really is circumstantial. There are several slang uses of the term 'boys.' I happen to be more than a little acquainted with several of them.

I've come across several of them too, and they even have a lot in common with your list there. I'm really not convinced any of them apply in this case, and even if they did it'd still be pretty creepy; I somehow doubt your average Thai rentboy is expecting to be "wearing the dog collar" and I'd question how consensual any such arrangement could be.

It depends if the guy's an adult. If he's an adult he can consent. If he's desperate for the money then that's not actually consent... Just because someone wants money for it doesn't mean they don't like bondage. Doesn't mean they DO like bondage. The point is really just that we can't know for sure what Bruce was talking about. I'm not for an instant denying that he could have meant ten year olds, but his words, verbatim, could be taken in so many different fetish contexts -- and the ones that would indicate pedophilia are in the minority. That's just not enough to make a fair accusation, especially about something so inflammatory.

[The_Duke]

Enter bitcoin - a currency invented to get rid of central authorities. At the moment a few forum members use the same tactic to drive their own agenda. Someone yells "child abuse", and in an instant a witch hunt starts.

Yeah. that could be true. Only... it was not "a few forum members" who came up with the idea that Bruce should do a conference in Pattaya. It was not "a few forum members" who posted that raping a girl was basically the girls fault or at best that men could not be hold accountable for failing to control their urges. It was not "a few forum members" who posted publicly about sexual acts in Pattaya.
That was all Bruce himself.

Pointing out some shady stuff doesn't make you a witch hunter by default.

[Chris Acheson]

Agreed.  In my opinion, Bruce has gone from being mostly neutral for Bitcoin's image to being an enormous liability.  The community should distance itself from him and not allow him to act as a spokesperson anymore.

After seeying the first posts by Bruce about... ALL THE... TRULY... AWESOME THING HIS... bitoin... CONFERENCE... would have, I already felt Bruce was stepping way across some boundaries by pretending to be anything "official" to bitcoin. The problem is... this is all open source, so it's kinda hard to prevent.
Tomorrow, Muammar Khadaffi might flee to Algeria, and proclaim he is now the official Bitcoin spokesman and he will host awesome conferences in his big tent. And there's nothing we could do about it.

I mostly mean that members of the Bitcoin community shouldn't sponsor his show or attend his conferences, and that we should ask him to step back from the position that he's taken.

[The_Duke]

and that we should ask him to step back from the position that he's taken.

If that is as effictive as asking him to reconsider Pattaya as a good location for a bitcoin meeting, I'm doubtful he will listen

[Nefario]

Can we give up the ghost on this?

I didn't start this thread for people to continue on the whole Wagner thing.

Duke,wolftaur can you give it a rest.

Some suggestions on what we do from here, I don't think it's healthy for the forum to continue in this direction.

And despite some of Bruces posts I still don't think that means the guy should be hounded out.

[Tasty Champa]

No one should be treated like this guy is being treated.
It should not be allowed.

it honestly shows how easily semi-smart people with weak minds can still be manipulated by ill-willed individuals.

[The_Duke]

Some suggestions on what we do from here, I don't think it's healthy for the forum to continue in this direction.

And despite some of Bruces posts I still don't think that means the guy should be hounded out.

Ok, point taken. I suppose the whole problem about Bruce is clear enough at the moment.

Suggestions? Here's some:
1) Consider what is good for bitcoin and take action on it. If that means taking distance from someone who is (dispite maybe his good intentions) hurting (the image of) bitcoin: then do so.
2) Appoint more moderators and oversee their work. The posts in which Bruce was called a pedophile should have been promptly edited with a clear warning that such thing will not be tolerated.
3) Protect the open source nature of bitcoin. If someone is pretending to be something he can never be due to bitcoins nature, shoo him off the forums.  

[makomk]

It depends if the guy's an adult. If he's an adult he can consent. If he's desperate for the money then that's not actually consent... Just because someone wants money for it doesn't mean they don't like bondage. Doesn't mean they DO like bondage.

We're talking about mainstream prostitution establishments here, and if I understand Bruce's post and the information out there on how they work correctly there's no way to even ask that question until after you've already paid the bar's share of the money. That together with the age and power difference is coercive in itself. In fact, the thread that Bruce's post was in was about someone paying for a guy who claimed his previous client had coerced him into receiving anal sex for the first time and only paid him the equivalent of $17 for it.

[Nefario]

No one should be treated like this guy is being treated.
It should not be allowed.

Which is what I'm trying to say, but I'm only a mod, not admin.

I think it's clear that Bruce isn't going to be involved in the next big bitcoin conference, and allowing this to drag on is damaging to the bitcoin community. And he can be ignored if he does make any claims.

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

[Nefario]

It depends if the guy's an adult. If he's an adult he can consent. If he's desperate for the money then that's not actually consent... Just because someone wants money for it doesn't mean they don't like bondage. Doesn't mean they DO like bondage.

We're talking about mainstream prostitution establishments here, and if I understand Bruce's post and the information out there on how they work correctly there's no way to even ask that question until after you've already paid the bar's share of the money. That together with the age and power difference is coercive in itself. In fact, the thread that Bruce's post was in was about someone paying for a guy who claimed his previous client had coerced him into receiving anal sex for the first time and only paid him the equivalent of $17 for it.

Case in point above by makomk, and here is an example of wolftaur going after Matthew N. Wright for (loud) thought crimes.

Matthew N. Wright, the head of this supposed organization, has stated the following in a public post on this forum:

As for thinking girls who prance around as sluts getting raped deserve it, deserve is a strong word, but pretty much all guys think that don't they?

Like being a white dude strolling through the bronx, being a jew hanging out in front of hitler's house, or selling dvds out of the back of your car in a police station parking lot-- it's common sense.

Why girls are 'surprised' it happens is what makes me stop wanting to care.

The full and unedited original post can be seen at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39476.msg489778#msg489778.

I would strongly, strongly suggest any business or entity considering business with this person's organization reconsider any relationship with this person or any organization he controls. I, for one, won't even consider patronizing or recommending any business that wants to associate with someone who thinks rape victims deserved to be raped.

[The_Duke]

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

No where have I accused Bruce of doing anything illegal. All I have done is point out how Bruce is making bad choices for bitcoin, is being stubborn about it, and is not doing anything to set it right.

You asked for suggestions, I gave them. How about you follow your own preachings, drop the whichhunt stuff and comment on my suggestions? Because so far, you are just providing another dramathread.

[Nefario]

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

No where have I accused Bruce of doing anything illegal. All I have done is point out how Bruce is making bad choices for bitcoin, is being stubborn about it, and is not doing anything to set it right.

You asked for suggestions, I gave them. How about you follow your own preachings, drop the whichhunt stuff and comment on my suggestions? Because so far, you are just providing another dramathread.

I did make a suggestion, temporarilly ban the members who are egging this on. Even named two.

[Tasty Champa]

No one should be treated like this guy is being treated.
It should not be allowed.

Which is what I'm trying to say, but I'm only a mod, not admin.

I think it's clear that Bruce isn't going to be involved in the next big bitcoin conference, and allowing this to drag on is damaging to the bitcoin community. And he can be ignored if he does make any claims.

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

I got banned 7 days for much less.
(I'm not really sure what I got banned for, I'm pretty sure I hit multiple fronts in one way or another and admittedly on purpose.)

I personally cringe when people of some note publicly start talking about their alt sexual prefs, but no one should be allowed to treat another human being in the manner Bruce is being treated. It's bad for business and everyone involved.

It shouldn't be tolerated.

[wolftaur]

Can we give up the ghost on this?

I didn't start this thread for people to continue on the whole Wagner thing.

Duke,wolftaur can you give it a rest.

Some suggestions on what we do from here, I don't think it's healthy for the forum to continue in this direction.

And despite some of Bruces posts I still don't think that means the guy should be hounded out.

I wasn't trying to continue it -- I was trying to say I disapprove of the whole slander someone's character thing. That which cannot be proven should not be used to taint a reputation. I was trying to give an example of a recent event I found offensive, but that was just meant to define the behavior I don't think is acceptable, not to turn this thread into the next duplicate.

[makomk]

Case in point above by makomk, and here is an example of wolftaur going after Matthew N. Wright for (loud) thought crimes.

Matthew N. Wright, the head of this supposed organization, has stated the following in a public post on this forum:

As for thinking girls who prance around as sluts getting raped deserve it, deserve is a strong word, but pretty much all guys think that don't they?

Like being a white dude strolling through the bronx, being a jew hanging out in front of hitler's house, or selling dvds out of the back of your car in a police station parking lot-- it's common sense.

Why girls are 'surprised' it happens is what makes me stop wanting to care.

Thought crimes? That's practically a bright flashing neon warning sign above Matthew's head reading "I think society would let me get away with rape, and I'd do the same for someone else"... and yes, people have gotten away with rape using exactly this excuse. (It's also pretty much what I'd expect within a geek community at this point, but that's beside the point.)

I personally cringe when people of some note publicly start talking about their alt sexual prefs, but no one should be allowed to treat another human being in the manner Bruce is being treated. It's bad for business and everyone involved.

As far as I can tell no-one's really brought up Bruce's alternative sexual preferences on this forum (yes he does appear to have them, and no I'm not telling you what they are - they're irrelevant). The issues were initially that he was holding a Bitcoin conference in an area of Thailand he knew was famous for its sex industry despite his denials because he'd made use of it himself, and then the question of just how old the "boys" he'd paid for sex with were...

[rainingbitcoins]

Case in point above by makomk, and here is an example of wolftaur going after Matthew N. Wright for (loud) thought crimes.

There's a huge difference between 1984-style thought crimes and just plain horribly offensive opinions.

[Tasty Champa]

No one should be treated like this guy is being treated.
It should not be allowed.

Which is what I'm trying to say, but I'm only a mod, not admin.

I think it's clear that Bruce isn't going to be involved in the next big bitcoin conference, and allowing this to drag on is damaging to the bitcoin community. And he can be ignored if he does make any claims.

I just think this kind of activity is wrong and shouldn't be continued, and those pushing it (the_duke, makomk, wolftaur) should be temporarily banned or blocked from posting.

I got banned 7 days for much less.
(I'm not really sure what I got banned for, I'm pretty sure I hit multiple fronts in one way or another and admittedly on purpose.)

I personally cringe when people of some note publicly start talking about their alt sexual prefs, but no one should be allowed to treat another human being in the manner Bruce is being treated. It's bad for business and everyone involved.

It shouldn't be tolerated.

Hear, hear. I'm not a Bitcoin show fan- it's boring to me. I'm not a Bruce fan, although I am very comfortable and entertained talking to him the other night on the phone while he was in Japan-- no warning signs of any kind. What he does in private (or even in the past) should stay there I think unless it's something that is detrimental to the world.

What if someone on this forum owed money on child support and also wanted to start their own exchange in India? Does that mean they shouldn't be listened to, no one should visit their exchange, etc? It's really vaguely starting to make sense when I remember all the arguments as to why libertarianism "wouldn't work in the 'real world'*"-- people are asshats and ruin it for themselves and everyone else.

*(I have no personal opinion about libertarianism at this point and time. Still learning.)

O.o are you agreeing with me or what are you doing exactly? XD
I don't dislike Bruce at all, though I don't think it was beneficial to him mentioning his sexual preference in the mybitcoin apology episode. As an observer I am led to assert that was the root of all of this, and the Thailand thing a negligible direction.

He could learn something from you, you should advise him on how to work with people.

[Nefario]

What if someone on this forum owed money on child support and also wanted to start their own exchange in India? Does that mean they shouldn't be listened to, no one should visit their exchange, etc? It's really vaguely starting to make sense when I remember all the arguments as to why libertarianism "wouldn't work in the 'real world'*"-- people are asshats and ruin it for themselves and everyone else.

*(I have no personal opinion about libertarianism at this point and time. Still learning.)

So true, world would be a better place if it wasn't for people.

I'll give you a good example. Here in China everyone has a ... file, a record of their life kept by the government.

All sorts of information goes into it, teachers write in it, only police, government officials, communist party members and employers can read it.

It means that any mistake in your youth (8-18) will get you a black mark, and no matter what kind of person you are or have become that black mark will follow you around for the rest of your life. It means no forgiveness, no forgetting, no new start.

It's a great way to keep people in line.

rainingbitcoins, sure voicing a crappy opinion isn't a great idea, but it's not a crime and people shouldn't be hounded about it.

makomk, continuing to prove my point, I've asked for you to be banned temporarilly.

[hugolp]

O.o are you agreeing with me or what are you doing exactly? XD
I don't dislike Bruce at all, though I don't think it was beneficial to him mentioning his sexual preference in the mybitcoin apology episode. As an observer I am led to assert that was the root of all of this, and the Thailand thing a negligible direction.

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

[wolftaur]

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

I honestly would have thought that would merit a ban.

Not just sexual orientation. But any obvious attempt to insult someone for their race, religion, sexual orientation, the country they reside in... That should be taken extremely seriously. I can't think of any place it has in a civilized conversation.

And granted, being gay myself and having been subjected to more than a few attacks on that basis in my lifetime, I'm probably a little bit biased on my thinking for such a policy, but...

[makomk]

It means that any mistake in your youth (8-18) will get you a black mark, and no matter what kind of person you are or have become that black mark will follow you around for the rest of your life. It means no forgiveness, no forgetting, no new start.

It's a great way to keep people in line.

On the other hand, there's fair evidence that Bruce and Matthew are still doing the things that they're being hounded for.

rainingbitcoins, sure voicing a crappy opinion isn't a great idea, but it's not a crime and people shouldn't be hounded about it.

It's not just a crappy argument, it's a crappy argument that leads to men getting away with raping women. Personally I think that's horribly wrong and this needs to be pointed out, repeatedly, until people stop accepting it as reasonable.

makomk, continuing to prove my point, I've asked for you to be banned temporarilly.

Why am I not surprised? Oh wait, it's because my expectations are already low.

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

Meh. Most of the dirt was dug up by SA forum members, and they knew or at least strongly suspected he was gay well before then. The reason you didn't hear about it was that no-one really gave a fuck. (You'll note I also actually defended Bruce in a thread that used insinuations based on the fact he was gay to try and discredit him, prior to this new information coming out.)

[rainingbitcoins]

rainingbitcoins, sure voicing a crappy opinion isn't a great idea, but it's not a crime and people shouldn't be hounded about it.

And nobody charged him with a crime. I know I sure wouldn't do business with someone who thinks that women who dress a certain way deserve to be raped (or even share some of the blame) and assumes every other man on earth agrees with him. Don't I have a right to that knowledge? Doesn't everyone? It's not like someone even had to go digging for that info - he posted it publically right here on this forum. And this is one of the more "public" faces of Bitcoin (or at least he's trying to be), so you always have the issue of those horrible opinions possibly being associated with Bitcoin in the public consciousness.

[The_Duke]

No where have I accused Bruce of doing anything illegal. All I have done is point out how Bruce is making bad choices for bitcoin, is being stubborn about it, and is not doing anything to set it right.

You asked for suggestions, I gave them. How about you follow your own preachings, drop the whichhunt stuff and comment on my suggestions? Because so far, you are just providing another dramathread.

I did make a suggestion, temporarilly ban the members who are egging this on. Even named two.

If you think that banning a few people who are merely pointing to stuff somewhere else on the internet and explaining why that stuff is bad for bitcoin (<-- thats what I did) is a good sollution to anything, then I fear I have to disagree with you. Others will just keep rising up to do the same pointing.

Again: You asked for suggestions, I gave you three suggestions. How about you, rather than doing yourself what you say is bad (pointing fingers) discuss the suggestions I gave you?

[Chris Acheson]

O.o are you agreeing with me or what are you doing exactly? XD
I don't dislike Bruce at all, though I don't think it was beneficial to him mentioning his sexual preference in the mybitcoin apology episode. As an observer I am led to assert that was the root of all of this, and the Thailand thing a negligible direction.

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

That doesn't sound right.  Are you talking about people attacking Bruce for being gay?  I've only seen one instance of that, a few days ago.  The general response was "Bruce is gay, so what?  NanaimoGold is just a bigot who's trying to distract people from his association with MyBitcoin".

If you mean people attacking Bruce in general, that's nothing new.  Lots of people have said that he comes off as a con artist and isn't a good spokesperson for Bitcoin, well before the MyBitcoin thing went down.

[Tasty Champa]

O.o are you agreeing with me or what are you doing exactly? XD
I don't dislike Bruce at all, though I don't think it was beneficial to him mentioning his sexual preference in the mybitcoin apology episode. As an observer I am led to assert that was the root of all of this, and the Thailand thing a negligible direction.

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

I'm going to pm you real quick.
I don't need a reply, it's just a simple statement.

[theymos]

Since everyone is going off-topic, clearly this is an issue that people want to discuss. I see absolutely no reason to prevent discussion of it. In the future, moderators must not remove topics related to this unless they are spammed or created by habitual trolls.

Why am I not surprised? Oh wait, it's because my expectations are already low.

You will not be banned.

[The_Duke]

Good move. Much better to keep it open and discussable, than trying to hide, cover and smother things.

Maybe we can create ONE topic on this matter so it is easier to follow, moderate and less impacting the rest of the topics?
Or maybe two topics, one on the Bruce issue and one on the topic of "Smear campaigns" etc?

[Littleshop]

This is a witch hunt.

you guys will just burn yourselves and your own houses in the process.

while whomever is behind it is getting lulz.

+1

Lots of innuendo and outright slander.  The posts on this board by members have already done more damage then Bruce is being accused of.

[The Madhatter]

Agreed.  In my opinion, Bruce has gone from being mostly neutral for Bitcoin's image to being an enormous liability.  The community should distance itself from him and not allow him to act as a spokesperson anymore.

+1

This is the biggest problem I have as well. This will surely tarnish Bitcoin's image. I wonder if any press is going to pick up on this. Hurm.

[wolftaur]

Agreed.  In my opinion, Bruce has gone from being mostly neutral for Bitcoin's image to being an enormous liability.  The community should distance itself from him and not allow him to act as a spokesperson anymore.

+1

This is the biggest problem I have as well. This will surely tarnish Bitcoin's image. I wonder if any press is going to pick up on this. Hurm.

No reputable paper would want to print this. It's inviting one hell of a lawsuit. Internet accusations with no proof, interspersed with multiple posts from multiple people (myself included) pointing out there's no proof... A journalist would find it nearly impossible to claim in court they were convinced the accusations were from credible and informed sources.

At least Bruce would recoup the losses he had with mybitcoin if that happened though.

[Gerken]

I too believe thats the problem. All the attacks started when Bruce said publicy that he was gay.

Meh. Most of the dirt was dug up by SA forum members, and they knew or at least strongly suspected he was gay well before then. The reason you didn't hear about it was that no-one really gave a fuck. (You'll note I also actually defended Bruce in a thread that used insinuations based on the fact he was gay to try and discredit him, prior to this new information coming out.)

This bothers me a bit, I just want to make this clear.  I've been a part of the SA thread from the beginning, and we've known he's gay for a long time, and nobody cares, it's a nonissue.  I haven't seen any attacks from anyone on either forum for him being gay (minus the sporadic ignoramus who is quickly shut down).  We actually for the most part liked Bruce, he was just so adorable in a dumb puppy way, with his POSITIVE ENERGY ONLY and UP UP UP!  This whole thing with Pattaya and his fierce determination to hold a conf there, and how adamant he was about the "THERES NO CHILD SEX OR DRUGS IN THAILAND" is what did him in and started the digging into his past. 

[Littleshop]

The fact that we allow posts like:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38916.0

without banning is just absurd to me. 

[makomk]

This bothers me a bit, I just want to make this clear.  I've been a part of the SA thread from the beginning, and we've known he's gay for a long time, and nobody cares, it's a nonissue.  I haven't seen any attacks from anyone on either forum for him being gay (minus the sporadic ignoramus who is quickly shut down).

Thanks! That's pretty much what I was trying to say, but you managed to word it a hell of a lot better than I did...

[lettucebee]

The fact that we allow posts like:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38916.0

without banning is just absurd to me. 

I disagree. Of all the hotels Bruce could invite bitcoiners to, why must he choose the flaming gay one?  I don't want bitcoin to be associated with flaming gayness.  It has enough of a burden already.  Why should people be banned for bringing up the obvious?

[Chris Acheson]

I don't want bitcoin to be associated with flaming gayness.

Die in a fire.

[Yuusha]

I don't want bitcoin to be associated with flaming gayness.

Die in a fire.

This.

[jackjack]

Report it instead

[elggawf]

I disagree. Of all the hotels Bruce could invite bitcoiners to, why must he choose the flaming gay one?

He didn't, he chose the gay-friendly one. Who knows, maybe he's a regular there, and knows a guy? That thread is flamebait because of the language and the insinuations used. It's not even like the other accusations - Bruce's own ambiguous words, his vehement defending of Pattaya as a destination, etc - that thread 100% boils down to "He's gay, wants to go to gay hotel, and some Bitcoiners are underage == Bruce is a pedo". That's fucking bullshit and everyone who supports that asshole should die in a fire. He may be proven "right" eventually, but the accusations (nanaimogold and warweed both) made bore no proof whatsoever, and nanaimogold's idiotic response of "homophobia? i'm not scared of homos!" is retarded on a grand scale.

The other accusations are legit - Bruce has apparently posted some stuff that even if not pedo in nature are still downright creepy, and since he did arise somehow a leader of the community, the community has a right to ask him what's up. As I said, the label "pedo" is really sticky, and I hate people throwing it around lightly.

That's why I personally think it best to stick to the things that are provable, and ask them to be explained.

[greyhawk]

The fact that we allow posts like:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38916.0

without banning is just absurd to me. 

You're calling for increased regulation while at the same time promoting a site with "Anarchy" in the name?

How does this even work?   

[Littleshop]

The fact that we allow posts like:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38916.0

without banning is just absurd to me. 

You're calling for increased regulation while at the same time promoting a site with "Anarchy" in the name?

How does this even work?   

And this again shows the EXACT problem with the forums here.

You just attacked me and distracted from the original topic of the conversation. 

The topic is smear campaigns and character assassination.  And I pointed out one of the worst messages that has been allowed to stand.  I am indeed for admins taking action in this case of the above message. 

[greyhawk]

You're calling for increased regulation while at the same time promoting a site with "Anarchy" in the name?

How does this even work?   

And this again shows the EXACT problem with the forums here.

You just attacked me and distracted from the original topic of the conversation. 

The topic is smear campaigns and character assassination.  And I pointed out one of the worst messages that has been allowed to stand.  I am indeed for admins taking action in this case of the above message. 
[/quote]

Your insinuation of an attack is a clear attempt at character assassination. All I was doing was asking a simple question.

[FAtlas]

So, let's just pretend that Bruce insisting on Pattaya as a conference location isn't really suspicious.

What about this article claiming that Bruce was involved in mortgage fraud in Illinois?
http://mortgagefraudblog.com/perp-walk/item/10674-illinois_foreclosure_rescue_company_fined_and_shut_down

Is it really a smear campaign when you're just reposting stuff that is freely available for everyone on the internet to read if they look closely enough?

[bbit]

par for the course I would say:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40340.0

[someotherguy]

This is a question I have to ask, I've just started going over the absolute fiasco that is the whole Bruce Wagner smear campain. I'd pm'd theymos (admin) about a post on this topic and he's OK with this.

Should we allow the bitcoin forums to become a place where someones sexuality comes under question (and is used in an attempt to smear a person)?

It's even gotten to the point where he's being accused of being a pedophile, this is the ultimate slur and character killer that, if it takes hold (which it has) is is totally destructive.

Should we as a community allow the kinds of "We'll he hasn't denied being a pedo therefor he's guilty" shit that's going on.

And it's not even direct accusations just things like "he's connected with ...", things that are technically true (he is connected because he's been accused of it).

Do we really want to let this witchunt become a part of our community?

I don't know Bruce personally, I've talked a little with him over skype about things where I am regarding bitcoin and thats it. I don't even watch his show.

I've just browsed over the threads but haven't come across any hard evidence, so unless said evidence appears should we not put an end to this line of discussion?

Nefario.

Thank you for your support and service, it did not go unnoticed.  However, I think you should reconsider.