Two interesting emails I received today...

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

This is such a shame, and embarrassing.

I can't help but feel bad for Bruce. I recently had dinner with Jered of TradeHill and Bruce in NY where BitInstant is based, and I could only say good things.

Bruce is one of Bitcoins largest allies and advocators, it would be a big blow to the community of these allegations are true.

Let's try and remain objective until the facts come to light

Charlie

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[The_Duke]

I would recommend to anyone checking the number of posts of the people answering here. Usually the "users" with low post count go in one direction and the user with high post count go in another direction.

Duh. Most of the people with huge postcounts have the most to lose from scandals around bitcoin. Most of them are still trying to cover this whole thing up and praying it will pass over asap without too much negative effect.
Having a high postcount on this board does not make you a superior, smarter or wiser person. In fact, it's more likely to give you a very clouded judgement.

[hugolp]

Again, this forum has been under constant attack from trolls and people with clone users. Low count users is very indicative of being a troll or a clone trying to "create opinion" or give the impression that a majority of the opinions go in some directions when it is not the case (although there are some, few, low count users that are valid). Just understand that if a bunch of low count users are all posting in mass in a thread with opinions in the same direction you know what is happening.

[nostrum]

@JeffK
You only make yourself sound like a christian fundamentalist. There is nothing wrong with consensual sex.

[N12]

Again, this forum has been under constant attack from trolls and people with clone users. Low count users is very indicative of being a troll or a clone trying to "create opinion" or give the impression that a majority of the opinions go in some directions when it is not the case (although there are some, few, low count users that are valid). Just understand that if a bunch of low count users are all posting in mass in a thread with opinions in the same direction you know what is happening.

Then how about the opposite, with The Madhatter and nanaimogold (both registered in 2009) teaming up against Bruce?

I’d also say that the higher the post count, and especially the longer you have been registered in this forum (suggesting higher BTC net worth), the more prone you are to bias and delusion with regard to Bitcoin.

[BlockHash]

Again, this forum has been under constant attack from trolls and people with clone users. Low count users is very indicative of being a troll or a clone trying to "create opinion" or give the impression that a majority of the opinions go in some directions when it is not the case (although there are some, few, low count users that are valid). Just understand that if a bunch of low count users are all posting in mass in a thread with opinions in the same direction you know what is happening.

I would suggest that no, "we don't know what is happening". Low post count users aren't any more or less valuable than any other user, especially in a forum that is still in its formative years like this one. How do you think high post count users are created in the first place?  I assume that if a topic says "The Sky is Blue" and all of the low post count users are agreeing, but high post counter users are saying "No, it's red", you'll automatically believe that it's a trolling effort to convince people that the sky is blue?  This type of elitism is what drives people away (along with some of the ridiculousness that we've seen from actual trolls)

I agree that the pedophilia accusations are a bit much, but there is a lot of other material that people are completely justified in being concerned about regarding Bruce.

[bearbones]

I've looked around and seen a lot of personal comments by Bruce about his leisure activities. They are all consistent with his public statements on this subject, and my interactions with Bruce. I don't know the incentives behind this attack, but I hope it blows over with little more said.

Those calling for Bruce to step aside as a leading bitcoin promoter are being ridiculous. We all do things that we wouldn't want tied to our work. It isn't always easy to separate these personas online. None of the paranoid security experts floating around are well suited for PR. Every public figure is open to this sort of digging. It really boils down to the following:

If you don't like Bruce, don't watch The Bitcoin Show.
If you don't think Pattaya is a good fit for the next conference, don't go. Better yet, spend your time and coins (like Bruce is) on organizing an alternative.

Violating people's privacy is exactly the sort of thing causes fear of "hackers". These accusations do nothing more than further associate bitcoin with the "hacking" community, as the media portrays it. Hopefully, the aggressors realize they're causing real harm to both Bruce and bitcoin. Otherwise, I recommend that they quit their day jobs, as their online personas are involved in personal attacks to the detriment of bitcoin.

[BlockHash]

Violating people's privacy is exactly the sort of thing causes fear of "hackers". These accusations do nothing more than further associate bitcoin with the "hacking" community, as the media portrays it. Hopefully, the aggressors realize they're causing real harm to both Bruce and bitcoin. Otherwise, I recommend that they quit their day jobs, as their online personas are involved in personal attacks to the detriment of bitcoin.

And holding what is being touted as an "official" Bitcoin conference in a city that is considered to be the international capital of child sex slavery & child sex tourism does nothing more associate it with that stigma. Ignoring the communities input that this is a bad idea and to reconsider is another major issue here. If he wants to do his vacationing there, it's none of my business nor is it any of my business what he does there, but if he's attaching Bitcoin to it and promoting it as an official event, then we should all be concerned that the people behind it might not have the best interests of the community at heart - which is what got us in this mess to begin with. He knew about the reputation of Pattaya yet denied that it was an issue and dismissed the concerns of the community at hand without any acknowledgement of the validity of the concerns. Nor did he reveal that he had a personal interest in holding the conference there when confronted about it. That wouldn't have been a problem if he had just told people that it was more of a personal vacation than it was a conference. I just got back from Shanghai a couple weeks ago and there was a gentleman there from Thailand on business. We were talking in the bar of our hotel and Bitcoin came up in our conversation. I mentioned a conference being held in his country at Pattaya and he was very animated in his response -  "Don't got to Pattaya, it's a very bad place and shameful on our country". Now I know what he meant by that.

Beyond that, I agree with you. The pedophilia accusations are still as of yet unproven and it would be best left out of any discussion regarding Bruce.

[bearbones]

And holding what is being touted as an "official" Bitcoin conference in a city that is considered to be the international capital of child sex slavery does nothing more associate it with that stigma. Ignoring the communities input that this is a bad idea and to reconsider is another major issue here. If he wants to do his vacationing there, it's none of my business nor is it any of my business what he does there, but if he's attaching Bitcoin to it and promoting it as an official event, then we should all be concerned that the people behind it might not have the best interests of the community at heart - which is what got us in this mess to begin with. He knew about the reputation of Pattaya yet denied that it was an issue and dismissed the concerns of the community at hand without any acknowledgement of the validity of the concerns.

Again; don't go. Already we're seeing alternatives pop up. (See Prague Convention) This isn't some official event sanctioned by the community. If the community doesn't back it, it is nothing more than a vacation for a bitcoin-holding social group.

Bruce is pushing us all forward, at his own expense and time. I'm not sure Pattaya is the best choice either, but the simple solution is to vote with your feet.

[freequant]

Am I the only one to find these emails more incriminating than exonarating?
I don't give a shit about all this drama starring perverts versus bullies.
But wtf does this have to do with MyBitcoin?

This whole story is suspicious to the extreme.
Bruce's own business is funded by paid advertisement, from sponsors that he knows.
I find it very strange that, in spite of being a professional of paid advertising, he could zealously recommand MyBitcoin while not knowing the person behind, and not having any affiliation.
I find even more strange his story in The Bitcoin Show about how he told to his *friends* one evening that he wanted to withdraw his funds, only to find out the next day that MyBitcoin had gone offline without any explanation (and the coming back of Tom Williams a few weeks later with only half of the money and no decent explanation).

And now, these emails published and commented (and therefore legitimated) by Bruce himself...
If they are legit and Bruce tells the truth, they prove that there exist some unspoken relation between Bruce, Tom Williams, and MadHatter...
Is Bruce a victim of blackmail of s.o. threatening to reveal his "secret"? Then why would Bruce jump in the trap by coming up with this Pattaya proposal? And what was the trade off of the blackmail?
Is MadHatter telling complete bullshit and he found out Bruce's "secret" at the same time as everybody? Then why does he speak as if that was not their first exchange of mail, and why does Bruce relay that crap as an "interesting email" supposed to discharge him somehow?
Why does it feel like Bruce broke some kind of deal? What was the deal?
And if MadHatter is really a fugitive, why is he still posting on this forum, optimizing his chances to get doxed.

The most paradoxical of all is that the second email would be totally lacking purpose if it was not transactional.
MadHatter seems to imply that he has incriminating evidence against Bruce, and that he is ready to use it if he gets bust because of him (which implies that Bruce knows much more than he admits regarding this MyBitcoin story).
Bruce affirms that he has nothing to hide, and that indeed MadHatter is terrified.

So if this email is legit, that means that Bruce knows something important about MyBitcoin and has nothing to loose telling it.
So why don't you just tell it Bruce?
That would help eliminating the doubt that this email is a smoke screen, and the whole story a big and complex theater play.

[BlockHash]

And holding what is being touted as an "official" Bitcoin conference in a city that is considered to be the international capital of child sex slavery does nothing more associate it with that stigma. Ignoring the communities input that this is a bad idea and to reconsider is another major issue here. If he wants to do his vacationing there, it's none of my business nor is it any of my business what he does there, but if he's attaching Bitcoin to it and promoting it as an official event, then we should all be concerned that the people behind it might not have the best interests of the community at heart - which is what got us in this mess to begin with. He knew about the reputation of Pattaya yet denied that it was an issue and dismissed the concerns of the community at hand without any acknowledgement of the validity of the concerns.

Again; don't go. Already we're seeing alternatives pop up. (See Prague Convention) This isn't some official event sanctioned by the community. If the community doesn't back it, it is nothing more than a vacation for a bitcoin-holding social group.

Bruce is pushing us all forward, at his own expense and time. I'm not sure Pattaya is the best choice either, but the simple solution is to vote with your feet.

I agree with you and I appreciate your input.

Beyond all that I mentioned, I think it's revealing that Bruce would act the way he acted in response to the community reasonably questioning Pattaya as a choice for a conference. He wouldn't address it, considered everyone to be 13 year old trolls, got mad and left the forums, started his own and then shut it down, told everyone he wasn't coming back to the boards, proposed using e-mail groups to communicate, and then came back to the forum yet still answers nothing about how this all got started.

I'm voting with my feet. The Prague Conference looks great and the guys behind it are true professionals. I may be giving that one a shot just because of how above board it's being handled.

[JeffK]

@JeffK
You only make yourself sound like a christian fundamentalist. There is nothing wrong with consensual sex.

With children? Because that is how it sounds. Sorry if I don't think children are in the right mind to make those kinds of decisions

edit: I really couldn't give less of a shit about his history as a rentboy, that's his business. If he is doing other things that may be harming defenseless minors, that's different though

[da2ce7]

That would help eliminating the doubt that this email is a smoke screen, and the whole story a big and complex theater play.

When all the dust settles, whoever dose the research and writes a novel based upon these
events has the prospective of making a lot of BTC.

We have lots of accusations with no evidence.  To me that is disgusting and says lots for the characters of those making the accusations.

I personally believe people should be treated an innocent until proven guilty.   From what is presented, we don’t even have the beginnings of proof.

[Bruce Wagner]

By the way, for a little more clarification...

In that excerpt from 2006, in that forum... which is being attributed to me...    The FACT is....   My post was the one at the top.     The message I was REPLYING TO was the one at the bottom...

In other words, my words were at the top --- before the word "QUOTE(tdperhs..." etc.

The words after  "QUOTE(tdperhs..."   ....is the other guy's post.....   the post to which I was replying.

Those words about a "virgins and newbies" and "a three pronged attack"....   were NOT my words.    

You can see clearly that I was quoting that other guy.

In my reply, I was defending the guys who work there in that business....  Saying that it's great that people tip them well, but the problem is one of economics.   They are so poor, they cannot refuse even the scumbags who mistreat them.... and then underpay them.    It's a very sad thing.    THAT is what I was saying.

If you re-read it in that light, it will make sense to you.

I have never been to any place called "Atom Bomb" and none of those words are in character for me.

Also, Pattaya is very well know for its Four Seasons and Ritz Carleton and Marriott Resort Hotels on the beaches.... and which are used for conventions, as well as it's Pattaya Exhibition and Convention Hall.     Just look at some of these pictures:   http://www.peachthailand.com/exhibition-convention/

Millions of people, and families, go there from all over the world for conventions and expos every year.   But if you don't like Pattaya or Thailand, please just don't go.     It's just that simple.

By the way, in case anyone is curious....   PUNLman stands for what I believe in.   PUNL.    Pure Unconditional Non-judgmental Love.   .....which is what I am all about.   .....and which always wins in the end.   

[foggyb]

@JeffK
You only make yourself sound like a christian fundamentalist.

I'd rather have bitcoin associated with christian fundamentalists, than have it mentioned in the same breath with a region that is well-known to be a tourist destination for pedophiles and others who pay strangers for sexual favors.

What Bruce Wagner does in his spare time is his business, lets keep it that way.

There are 1 billion Muslims in the world and 2 billion Christians. That's 50% of the earth's population. Alienating those groups in bitcoin PR, is exceedingly foolish, if the goal is to spread bitcoin to as many people as possible. Unless the goal is to limit bitcoin to a fringe curiosity.



 

[JeffK]

By the way, for a little more clarification...

In that excerpt from 2006, in that forum... which is being attributed to me...    The FACT is....   My post was the one at the top.     The message I was REPLYING TO was the one at the bottom...

In other words, my words were at the top --- before the word "QUOTE(tdperhs..." etc.

The words after  "QUOTE(tdperhs..."   ....is the other guy's post.....   the post to which I was replying.

Those words about a "virgins and newbies" and "a three pronged attack"....   were NOT my words.    

You can see clearly that I was quoting that other guy.

In my reply, I was defending the guys who work there in that business....  Saying that it's great that people tip them well, but the problem is one of economics.   They are so poor, they cannot refuse even the scumbags who mistreat them.... and then underpay them.    It's a very sad thing.    THAT is what I was saying.

If you re-read it in that light, it will make sense to you.

I have never been to any place called "Atom Bomb" and none of those words are in character for me.

Also, Pattaya is very well know for its Four Seasons and Ritz Carleton and Marriott Resort Hotels on the beaches.... and which are used for conventions, as well as it's Pattaya Exhibition and Convention Hall.     Just look at some of these pictures:   http://www.peachthailand.com/exhibition-convention/

Millions of people, and families, go there from all over the world for conventions and expos every year.   But if you don't like Pattaya or Thailand, please just don't go.     It's just that simple.

Why not choose a city with an airport? Why not some other major financial hub in Thailand? Why a city specifically known for underage sex tourism?

[BlockHash]

By the way, for a little more clarification...

In that excerpt from 2006, in that forum... which is being attributed to me...    The FACT is....   My post was the one at the top.     The message I was REPLYING TO was the one at the bottom...

In other words, my words were at the top --- before the word "QUOTE(tdperhs..." etc.

The words after  "QUOTE(tdperhs..."   ....is the other guy's post.....   the post to which I was replying.

Those words about a "virgins and newbies" and "a three pronged attack"....   were NOT my words.    

You can see clearly that I was quoting that other guy.

In my reply, I was defending the guys who work there in that business....  Saying that it's great that people tip them well, but the problem is one of economics.   They are so poor, they cannot refuse even the scumbags who mistreat them.... and then underpay them.    It's a very sad thing.    THAT is what I was saying.

If you re-read it in that light, it will make sense to you.

I have never been to any place called "Atom Bomb" and none of those words are in character for me.

Also, Pattaya is very well know for its Four Seasons and Ritz Carleton and Marriott Resort Hotels on the beaches.... and which are used for conventions, as well as it's Pattaya Exhibition and Convention Hall.     Just look at some of these pictures:   http://www.peachthailand.com/exhibition-convention/

Millions of people, and families, go there from all over the world for conventions and expos every year.   But if you don't like Pattaya or Thailand, please just don't go.     It's just that simple.

You still defend Pattaya steadfastly and you still do not address the concerns of the community that you were thinking with your dick (with of-age prostitutes in Pataya) rather than with the best interests of the community at all. You see no reason why Bitcoin might not need to be connected with this place, that is more internationally known for their illicit sex trade than for their Four Seasons or Ritz Carleton. This is just beyond rational thought that you see no problem with this and continue promoting this as an "official" Bitcoin event.

You are also aware that prostitution, like the child sex trade, is illegal in Pattaya. There goes your argument that the child sex trade is strictly enforced by the authorities, when it's clear they don't even enforce their prostitution laws.

[freequant]

We are going round in circles.

[JeffK]

By the way, for a little more clarification...

In that excerpt from 2006, in that forum... which is being attributed to me...    The FACT is....   My post was the one at the top.     The message I was REPLYING TO was the one at the bottom...

In other words, my words were at the top --- before the word "QUOTE(tdperhs..." etc.

The words after  "QUOTE(tdperhs..."   ....is the other guy's post.....   the post to which I was replying.

Those words about a "virgins and newbies" and "a three pronged attack"....   were NOT my words.    

You can see clearly that I was quoting that other guy.

In my reply, I was defending the guys who work there in that business....  Saying that it's great that people tip them well, but the problem is one of economics.   They are so poor, they cannot refuse even the scumbags who mistreat them.... and then underpay them.    It's a very sad thing.    THAT is what I was saying.

If you re-read it in that light, it will make sense to you.

I have never been to any place called "Atom Bomb" and none of those words are in character for me.

Also, Pattaya is very well know for its Four Seasons and Ritz Carleton and Marriott Resort Hotels on the beaches.... and which are used for conventions, as well as it's Pattaya Exhibition and Convention Hall.     Just look at some of these pictures:   http://www.peachthailand.com/exhibition-convention/

Millions of people, and families, go there from all over the world for conventions and expos every year.   But if you don't like Pattaya or Thailand, please just don't go.     It's just that simple.

You still defend Pattaya steadfastly and you still do not address the concerns of the community that you were thinking with your dick (with of-age prostitutes in Pataya) rather than the with the best interests of the community at all. You see no reason why Bitcoin might not need to be connected with this place, that is more internationally known for their illicit sex trade than for their Four Seasons or Ritz Carleton. This is just beyond rational thought that you see no problem with this and continue promoting this as an "official" Bitcoin event.

You are also aware that prostitution, like the child sex trade, is illegal in Pattaya. There goes your argument that the child sex trade is strictly enforced by the authorities, when it's clear they don't even enforce their prostitution laws.

He also noted having 'fun with the boys' there, wink wink nudge nudge, and wrote the forementioned blog post so he KNOWS it isn't enforced

[Bruce Wagner]

Why not choose a city with an airport? Why not some other major financial hub in Thailand? Why a city specifically known for underage sex tourism?

Both of these statements are lies.... or terribly misinformed....  as I have pointed out before.

The brand new world-class Bangkok International Airport is CLOSER to Pattaya (the resort beach community), than it is to Bangkok itself (the dirty urban city).

Also, there is no city in Thailand known for underage tourism.   Thailand has very strict laws against it... which are strictly enforced with extremely harsh punishments.

Thailand is also notoriously strict on illegal drugs.     The smallest infraction can get you the death penalty there.

What I will do is this:   

I will take a survey of the ACTUAL REAL adults who attended this past Conference.... ( not the endless personas here belonging to 13-year-old bitcoin and libertarian haters )  and I will ask them if they would prefer Pattaya, or some other destination.   It makes little difference to me.