Newbie guide to ASIC vendors

[Puppet]

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  

un-fucking-believable. I said you were 2-3 months late. I dont care if that was a promise or an estimate. Are you 2-3 months late, or are you not?

Anyway, good job proving newbies why trusting you or your company is insane. IN case anyone didnt know, Inaba is the COO of BFL and this is how he conducts business:

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[Inaba]

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  

un-fucking-believable. I said you were 2-3 months late. I dont care if that was a promise or an estimate. Are you 2-3 months late, or are you not?

Anyway, good job proving newbies why trusting you or your company is insane. IN case anyone didnt know, Inaba is the COO of BFL and this is how he conducts business:

Un-fucking-believable!  You state we are 2 - 3 months late and then cite a page where it explicitly says, and I quote "this timeline is not a hard and fast timeline and is not meant to be the bible of how we will be rolling out this product."

Here, let me quote another part of that SAME post you linked from:  "This is our current projected timeline. It is subject to change."  Do you read English and understand it?  It would seem not.

That is a direct quote from the page you yourself quoted and here you are trying to pass off your stupid bullshit as some sort of promise that we would deliver on a specific date.  You are truly a piece of shit and you've ruined your own thread by posting blatantly false and biased information, even faced with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, you still hold fast to your lies.  Good job proving why newbies should not trust you in any fashion!  You are completely worthless and unable to admit that you have made a mistake and are now a confirmed, demonstrated liar.  How do you expect anyone to trust anything else you've written?

[Minor Miner]

Really?  8 days late?  You received your order last summer?  It was my understanding they shipped in October and promised shipping in summer... amazing that you were the only person to receive their unit sometime last summer while everyone else had to wait until October.  You must have quite an "in" over there in KnC land.

Oh come on Inaba, I know you love BFL but even you have to admit that they are chronic fuck ups and that Josh guy they hired is a complete disaster and goofball.   I kind of had faith in you when you demanded that everyone post under their real name so they could all "man up" to their statements, but all this defending of bitcoin's most embarrassing company (yifu beat them in my books and some would say pirate@40 was up there too) is starting to disappoint me.   I am almost starting to feel like you are a sock puppet for BFL.
Just when I thought Inaba was the one straight shooter on this forum.

[LittleD]

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate." 

un-fucking-believable. I said you were 2-3 months late. I dont care if that was a promise or an estimate. Are you 2-3 months late, or are you not?

Anyway, good job proving newbies why trusting you or your company is insane. IN case anyone didnt know, Inaba is the COO of BFL and this is how he conducts business:

Un-fucking-believable!  You state we are 2 - 3 months late and then cite a page where it explicitly says, and I quote "this timeline is not a hard and fast timeline and is not meant to be the bible of how we will be rolling out this product."

Here, let me quote another part of that SAME post you linked from:  "This is our current projected timeline. It is subject to change."  Do you read English and understand it?  It would seem not.

That is a direct quote from the page you yourself quoted and here you are trying to pass off your stupid bullshit as some sort of promise that we would deliver on a specific date.  You are truly a piece of shit and you've ruined your own thread by posting blatantly false and biased information, even faced with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, you still hold fast to your lies.  Good job proving why newbies should not trust you in any fashion!  You are completely worthless and unable to admit that you have made a mistake and are now a confirmed, demonstrated liar.  How do you expect anyone to trust anything else you've written?

Really?  8 days late?  You received your order last summer?  It was my understanding they shipped in October and promised shipping in summer... amazing that you were the only person to receive their unit sometime last summer while everyone else had to wait until October.  You must have quite an "in" over there in KnC land.

Yes, KnC was a several days late, but delivered extra hashrate. How much extra hashrate are Monarchs going to have that are will be several months late?

Yes please let us know how much extra hasrate customers are going to get

[gmaxwell]

Usually when the presentation of a matter of fact is contested you can usually make a version which everyone agrees is acceptable simply by adding a bit more information.

Instead of  "Their 28nm product is already 2-3 months late and no silicon in sight so far", you can say something like:

For their latest 28nm product BFL originally advertised a target of X, but when they also said "this timeline is not a hard and fast timeline and is not meant to be the bible of how we will be rolling out this product." and "This is our current projected timeline. It is subject to change." they weren't kidding around: It's now X past that "target" and the network difficulty is now Y times higher then when they started taking orders, and they haven't yet demonstrated a working chip much less shipped any to anyone.

As far as criticism goes, I think this is even more effective (e.g. tells the reader why they should care), avoids the rat hole of arguing over what "late" means which some readers may use as an excuse to justify ignoring your complaint ("I read elsewhere that it was just a target, this guy has an axe to grind!"), and avoids sounding too whiny.

When you've really got a strong position you can usually concede every ambiguous point to your opponent and walk away all the more convincing for it. Getting into knife fights over every last issue makes you look weak, desperate, or biased (something some of the vendors around here should learn!).

[Puppet]

Usually when the presentation of a matter of fact is contested you can usually make a version which everyone agrees is acceptable simply by adding a bit more information.

I have no ambition to write something BFL (and all the other vendors) will agree with. They can ask their PR firm to do that for them. There is a clear disclaimer in the first paragraphs.

As for the definition of "late". There cant be any discussion that its several months later than they originally (claimed they) expected. Of course delays "changing timelines" can happen, the point is that it did happen (over and over again). When unexpected  things cause a shift in delivery schedule or planning, I cant call that anything other than a delay. They only way for it not to be a delay is if the shift was not unexpected. In that case, its indeed not late, but then they lied.

Frankly Im embarrassed for BFL the way Josh tries to make a point that because they gave no formal promise, this delay didnt happen. By his logic they can ship in 2020 and still be not be late. But in a way its good he's writing it here, so prospective newbie customers can find out first hand just how little it means when BFL states something.

[Ytterbium]

Why do you insist on posting so many falsehoods about BFL?  BFL's 28nm is not "already 2 - 3 months late," it's less than a month "late" if you can even say that as we never guaranteed a timeframe.  On top of that, "no sign of silicon" is just completely false.

GG for posting FUD!

Oh so when you you plastered "Shipping in october" all over you had your fingers crossed behind your back so it didn't count? The obvious joke is that you didn't specify a year, but seriously - just go fuck yourself you delusional nutjob.

You are obviously 3 months late from the date you specified when you launched the product.

Can you point out where there was a promise?  No?  Oops, you are a liar!

I mean, god forbid you post true information... that would actually paint BFL in a kinder light.  No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

Pathetic.

He never said you promised to deliver on time, he just said you were late, which you are. He wrote:

Have delivered several PH of 65nm hardware, but are notorious for delivering extremely late and often underspec. Customer support is completely inadequate and incapable of handling the volume they receive . Their own forum contains countless reports of DOA's and machines breaking down after only a few weeks. In particular, dying/sparking/burning PSU's. TO be fair, BFL is one of the largest suppliers out there, its difficult to estimate what % of their sales these stories represent. Their 28nm product is already 2-3 months late and no silicon in sight so far.

No mention of any "promise", so his statement is completely accurate.

___

Btw, when I ordered my KnC it was for "October delivery".  They actually delivered it in the middle of October, so it was actually early compared to what I agreed too, which would have been the "before the end of October"

[Bicknellski]

Yes why not just ask a customer how they feel about promises?

They lied. They missed the dates. They are more than just late. They are not able to able to estimate anything close to a real production timeline. This is the 3rd time they have done this.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280630.msg3000555#msg3000555

August 25, 2013, 02:33:58

Hi,

Few days ago I ordered 2 Monarch cards from BFL.

When I ordered they say delivery is estimated in October/November.

Now I see the first batch is sold out (http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/)

But the delivery dates they publish for the sold out dates are... "November/December"

Looks like they got another month delay just few days after they start taking orders...

If they finish the "tape out" few few days ago and at that time they estimate 60-90 days what can change now to get an estimation of 90-120 days.

With 60-90 days was a risky bet to buy... with 120 is a suicide.

I know may I have been an idiot buying from them.

Regards

I count 4 months and it will likely end up being closer to 6+ given they have no working chips at this point. The 1.5 is generous at this point a 0/5 would be appropriate.

[faetos]

So, if I order a BFL Monarch card when will I get it?

[Bicknellski]

No one knows when it will ship if you buy today. Estimated times vary so wildly with BFL you can't be certain. If anyone at BFL states a date for shipping it would not be accurate as they have never even come close to actually meeting their estimated or set target dates for delivery on any units they have ever built or are building currently.

Looks like they got another month delay just few days after they start taking orders...

[LittleD]

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  

un-fucking-believable. I said you were 2-3 months late. I dont care if that was a promise or an estimate. Are you 2-3 months late, or are you not?

Anyway, good job proving newbies why trusting you or your company is insane. IN case anyone didnt know, Inaba is the COO of BFL and this is how he conducts business:

Un-fucking-believable!  

  Wow what big words you are using ~ I don't think I understand what was that again

[Ytterbium]

So, if I order a BFL Monarch card when will I get it?

Interesting that josh was so active in the thread, yet ignored this question.

[Puppet]

Interesting that josh was so active in the thread, yet ignored this question.

Because I already answered it.



What I find more interesting is that he chooses to argue semantics about what constitutes a delay, while apparently taking no issue with the rest of the claims in my OP. True, they are hard to deny, but if I were a BFL spindoctor, at least Id try.

[faetos]

That's the reason I asked it. This is actually a good newbie thread. They can see why people have the reaction that they do. Questions about actual products are ignored, but personal attacks are engaged with fervor. If I were looking to invest in a company's products would I invest in a company who's C-Level executives act in such a manner? Probably not.

[Syke]

That's the reason I asked it. This is actually a good newbie thread. They can see why people have the reaction that they do. Questions about actual products are ignored, but personal attacks are engaged with fervor. If I were looking to invest in a company's products would I invest in a company who's C-Level executives act in such a manner? Probably not.

And in the interest of full disclosure for the newbies, we need to point at that Inaba is actually a senior level executive at BFL that posts under a pseudonym rather than his official Bitcointalk account so that he can try to avoid linking his vitriol with the official company name and continue to shill for them. BFL is the same company that is chronically late with all their product releases.

[testerx]

Updating my scores and editing my OP based on new info:

KnC Jupiters (over 10 miners): 100% hardware issue rate (as in: we've been seeing problems with every miner received)
Bitmain (we have dozens of these miners) : 2% hardware issue rate

YMMV: but that's what we're seeing in the DZ Miners Cooperative.

So my top 3 ASIC mfgs at this time are:

#3 KnC
#2 Black Arrow
#1 Bitmain

Why is black arrow #2 when there has been nothing but problems with group buys 9-12 and their black arrow boards?  Even now after months there are still board failures and the hashrate isn't even the minimum originally expected.

[Bicknellski]

Updating my scores and editing my OP based on new info:

KnC Jupiters (over 10 miners): 100% hardware issue rate (as in: we've been seeing problems with every miner received)
Bitmain (we have dozens of these miners) : 2% hardware issue rate

YMMV: but that's what we're seeing in the DZ Miners Cooperative.

So my top 3 ASIC mfgs at this time are:

#3 KnC
#2 Black Arrow
#1 Bitmain

Why is black arrow #2 when there has been nothing but problems with group buys 9-12 and their black arrow boards?  Even now after months there are still board failures and the hashrate isn't even the minimum originally expected.

Please post a review... that way the ratings will change.

[DyslexicZombei]

That's normal in the biz...the hardware issue rate of 100% our guys are seeing with our KnC miners is not normal for the biz. The Bitmains have proven to be much less problematic for us.

You must have had either bad luck or bad luck. Some friends of mine had only one defective module out of the 7 Jupiters they ordered. Also, your (and my) sample size are too small to count as valid statistics, the only people that know the actual failure rate are the people working at KNC.

You have a valid point, but then I love how you just used a sample size of approximately half the size of my sample size as proof that my feedback isn't valid!  

All I can tell you, is that the dozens of Bitmains have been a dream to work with compared with the KnC Jupiters in our small sample size of 12 KnC miners, half from Batch 1 and half from Batch 2 ordered in about 4 or 5 separate orders. Our latest 4 Jupiters are *finally* working well, but it wasn't easy or accomplished in a very short period either. It's not like our guys don't know what they're doing either, these are veteran hosts with prior Jupiter experience, and at the moment, they're handling about 21 TH/s from a mix of mfgs.

Also: if any other US miner hosts want to take over hosting (and are willing to be vetted), there are Jupiters in-stock and on-hand now for anyone willing to try their luck. You're more than welcome to take one or two of these off of our hands SirWizz.  

[thomashrev89]

Ok, Ill bite. Here is what you posted in august of last year:

Middle/Late October
Chips are out of the fab and sent to the slice, bump and packaging facility
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/4414-monarch-information.html

When did this happen ?  Two days ago, January 13th:
Chips have arrived at the packaging facility!
https://twitter.com/BFL_Josh/status/422780954461999104

How exactly is that "less than a month" late? Thats almost 3 months late, just like I wrote, "2-3 months". So far.

From that same link:
We did not reach our goal of November delivery.

You didnt reach it in December either. And I bet you a pretty penny you will not reach it in January either. But you dare say with a straight face you are less than a month late?

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  So again, please cite example where a promise was made... You chose the right picture, you are definitely a liar.

Spoken like a true rat. I know you said that you are just being an asshole because it will generate sales but this fuck you attitude to your customers is going to backfire. a business model where you lure noobs that dont know your history of false advertisment to buy your gear can not sustain.

[miaviator]

Ok, Ill bite. Here is what you posted in august of last year:

Middle/Late October
Chips are out of the fab and sent to the slice, bump and packaging facility
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/4414-monarch-information.html

When did this happen ?  Two days ago, January 13th:
Chips have arrived at the packaging facility!
https://twitter.com/BFL_Josh/status/422780954461999104

How exactly is that "less than a month" late? Thats almost 3 months late, just like I wrote, "2-3 months". So far.

From that same link:
We did not reach our goal of November delivery.

You didnt reach it in December either. And I bet you a pretty penny you will not reach it in January either. But you dare say with a straight face you are less than a month late?

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  So again, please cite example where a promise was made... You chose the right picture, you are definitely a liar.

Spoken like a true rat. I know you said that you are just being an asshole because it will generate sales but this fuck you attitude to your customers is going to backfire. a business model where you lure noobs that dont know your history of false advertisment to buy your gear can not sustain.

Really?

I would have agreed with you 13 months after ordering the SC's.  I'm now fairly certain that the pretty pictures and massive advertising campaign are going to keep BFL in business.  This isn't an endorsement for BFL it's just the sad truth.