Newbie guide to ASIC vendors

[Puppet]

I thought this might be useful for newbies, to give them an idea of the track record / reputation of the various bitcoin asic vendors.

Consider this work in progress, its based on things I read, I dont have first hand experience with any of them, let alone all of them,  but a single person's experience wouldnt be very representative anyway. Im very much open to changing/updating this based on feedback posted in this thread, particularly for vendors Im not too familiar with, but I will weigh your opinion/experience against your own reputation. Ie, opinions and stated experience of newbie posters or known trolls wont carry the same weight as those of trusted long time members.

This is not meant to be a scientific study, its my personal and therefore subjective interpretation of what I know about these companies. I dont have a bone in this fight, I hold no shares nor preorders for any of them, which should make me unbiased, but Im a human being with my own opinions so YMMV.

In alphabetical order:

AMT 2/5
Doesnt produce asics, but assembles miners based on bitfury and bitmine chips. Have shipped a handful (possibly as few as 2) Bitfury/technobit based 55nm miners so far. Currently 6+ weeks overdue on their bitfury orders and advertising highly implausible specs and delivery dates for their Bitmine based 28nm gear. Customer support is very poor, reportedly very rude and mostly non responsive. Have a very unfortunate (published) policy of giving 5% discounts and shipping priority to shill accounts posting in their favor, making any posted positive customer experience automatically suspect, particularly from new (often fake) accounts.

Avalon ?/5
Delivered on their promises with batch 1 of their first gen (110nm) devices, royally screwed their customer on batch 2. Their second generation 55nm asic appears to be shipping from stock, but is aimed more at system integrators than end users. Ive not heard enough recent feedback to make a judgement, but it appears they may be trying to salvage what little is left of their reputation. Specs for their 55nm chip suggest their design is less power efficient than current competitors, but it should also be pointed out their miners are quite price competitive atm.

Asicminer
Asicminer is a startup that was publicly funded with bitcoins, through the issuing of btc denominated shares that can be traded, similar to ActM/VMC, but with a proven trackrecord. Asicminer was a pioneer in bitcoin asics, along with Avalon. They mostly self mine and at one time they owned about 1/3 of the network. Currently they only have an almost obsolete chip. A new generation is supposed to be under development, but AFAIK, they are no longer selling directly to end users atm. Their products like the blockerupter and cube are still available from some third parties, as well as various boards based on their chip.  Keep in mind these miners have very high power consumption for their hashrate and especially the USB sticks at todays difficulty are all but obsolete.

update: asicminer announced tapeout of their 45nm follow up, due in May. It has pretty incredible low power usage specs, lower than any 28nm chip.

BFL 1.5/5
Have delivered several PH of 65nm hardware, but are notorious for delivering extremely late and often underspec. Customer support is completely inadequate and incapable of handling the volume they receive . Their own forum contains countless reports of DOA's and machines breaking down after only a few weeks. In particular, dying/sparking/burning PSU's. TO be fair, BFL is one of the largest suppliers out there, its difficult to estimate what % of their sales these stories represent. Their 28nm product is already 2-3 months late and no silicon in sight so far.

Bitfury -/5
Have shipped several PH worth of 55nm asics, delivered pretty much on time but below spec. I have not read anything on customer service, so I will refrain from assessing that. Currently seems to focus on working with third party providers like Technobit so may not be relevant anyway. Performance and power efficiency of their 55nm product was revolutionary at launch and still is impressive today, rivaling that of many 28nm designs.

Bitmain 5/5
Relatively small and new vendor, doesnt do preorders, instead sells mostly through auctions,  shipping quickly and from stock, specs are as promised, few reports of DOA or needs to RMA. Bitmain doesnt even have a website yet (sales happen through auctions on this forum), but customer support appears very good from what little Ive read about it. Like Bitfury, Bitmain "only" has a 55nm chip to date, but its also competitive in power efficiency with Bitfury and current 28nm alternatives.

Bitmine.ch 3/5
Havent shipped any 28nm miners yet, currently a few weeks overdue on their initial promises. Have shown working silicon and might be close to shipping. Too early to assess. (note: I believe bitmine used to ship avalon based gear? If so, some feedback would be welcome, Im not aware of their track record).

update: although more than a month late, full scale production is underway and shipping supposedly imminent.

Black Arrow 3/5
Have only shipped FPGA miners and recently Bitfury based gear. Their 28nm asic wasnt due until late february, but is now delayed until May 1st. Customer support track record seems fair, but recent feedback from customers experience with their bitfury based gear is welcome.

Cointerra 3/5
Despite very high expectations, CT are over 1 month late, and missed both power and performance targets by almost 20%.  Supposedly just started shipping, Im not aware of any retail customers having received their gear yet, but should happen any moment.

Hash Fast 2/5
Still havent delivered anything yet in meaningful quantities. Currently >2 months overdue on their inititial shipping promise and causing a lot of controversy surrounding their MPP and refund policy. Facing litigation. Have shown working silicon, its assumed / hoped they will start shipping very soon, but confidence is this company is in free fall.

KnC 4/5
Have shipped several PH worth of 28nm miners and are the only company so far to have done that. Delivered (way) over spec and only marginally late on their first batch. High number of reports of defects and RMA's, especially on the first batch, but decent customer service. Currently no longer selling 28nm miners, only preorders for Neptune, a 20nm product with vague specs and vague delivery date (Q1/Q2). Optimists expect KnC to again vastly over deliver on their specs and achieve that on the early end of their shipping estimate, pessimists (like me) fear that while the specs are probably indeed understated, 20nm products are not likely to appear before summer. Based on their past achievement, which also exceeded my expectations, I wont deduct points for that though.

edit: One point that was raised by other members, and which is quite valid, is that KnC really dropped the ball on their hosting service. Prospective customers may want to think twice before trusting them with hosting.

Technobit 3/5
Doesnt produce asics, but produces and sells boards based on 3rd party ASICs like Avalon and Bitfury. Have shipped a lot of hardware already, but despite claims of ample stock, currently seem to take ~1 month for shipping. Also lots of complaints about their parcel service (speedy/DPD). Customer support seems to be reasonable though, even if stretched a bit thin.

Virtual Mining Corporation (VMC/AMC) ?/5
VMC is developing and selling preorders for 28nm structured asics, but havent shipped anything yet and havent really shown anything yet. Not much is known of their schedule and even less of the current project status, other than that its being delayed. Despite a public and verifiable partnership with eASIC, a well known semiconductor company with unquestionable expertise, and a business approach that in theory should enable fast time to market at relatively low risk, VMC is cloaked in so much secrecy that serious questions can be asked about their credibility.

edit: ActM announced a change in plans, their 28nm structured asic appears DOA, and instead a 55nm custom asic is promised. Probably too late to really matter, unless its one really efficient design.

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[sabreiib]

Good thread, I just need this kind of information.

[Biffa]

I wouldn't really say Bitmain are better than KnC, I'd give them both 4.5 really.

[de_ixie]

Good start. From private experience - despite everything positive KnC achieved - they majorly screwed up hosting and forced me into refunding my Oct Jupiters mid of October - and I know that I am not the only one who paid for their "premium" hosting upfront and received second hand treatment. They skipped order chain and delivered "postal" and "pick up" orders weeks before hosted. I suspect this is also the reason why they do not offer hosting for Neptune atm - Never ever, ever I would recommend KnC hosting... never... period. I would not deduct any points in your rating - they did an amazing job overall. Maybe just mention to treat KnC hosting with big caution.

[Puppet]

I wouldn't really say Bitmain are better than KnC, I'd give them both 4.5 really.

Depends how you define better. Bitmain isnt taking preorder "investments" and is instead selling from stock, that has to be an advantage, since there is basically no risk of long delays or missing specs. Of course what they deliver is less impressive than what KnC has done and might do, but the point of this thread is not to assess how good those vendors offers are in terms of price or efficiency or whatever, just how likely they are to deliver on their promises. In that sense, its going to be difficult to do better than Bitmain.

[Puppet]

Good start. From private experience - despite everything positive KnC achieved - they majorly screwed up hosting and forced me into refunding my Oct Jupiters mid of October - and I know that I am not the only one who paid for their "premium" hosting upfront and received second hand treatment. They skipped order chain and delivered "postal" and "pick up" orders weeks before hosted. I suspect this is also the reason why they do not offer hosting for Neptune atm - Never ever, ever I would recommend KnC hosting... never... period. I would not deduct any points in your rating - they did an amazing job overall. Maybe just mention to treat KnC hosting with big caution.

Thats an excellent point I had overseen/forgotten. Indeed, their hosting service was quite a disaster (and way overpriced). Whats the situation on that now? Are they at all hosting for customers ? Did they refund the hosting and allow you to self host your miner?

[de_ixie]

Good start. From private experience - despite everything positive KnC achieved - they majorly screwed up hosting and forced me into refunding my Oct Jupiters mid of October - and I know that I am not the only one who paid for their "premium" hosting upfront and received second hand treatment. They skipped order chain and delivered "postal" and "pick up" orders weeks before hosted. I suspect this is also the reason why they do not offer hosting for Neptune atm - Never ever, ever I would recommend KnC hosting... never... period. I would not deduct any points in your rating - they did an amazing job overall. Maybe just mention to treat KnC hosting with big caution.

Thats an excellent point I had overseen/forgotten. Indeed, their hosting service was quite a disaster (and way overpriced). Whats the situation on that now? Are they at all hosting for customers ? Did they refund the hosting and allow you to self host your miner?

The situation when I stopped following KnC hosting debacle:

- First: They advertised premium price "hosting" with "hashing a few hours after production of your rig" - this is why ppl bought it -> big fail  
- They hosted day1 / day 2 customers almost in timely manner (late, but with somewhat fair compensation)
- After that: They delivered *postal* and *pick-up* orders following the order chain
- They skipped order chain for "hosted orders", around mid of Oct I saw people after me in the order chain presenting their rigs here in the forum
- I called KnC and asked for clarification. Answer: We dont know when our hosting will go online and no it was not possible to transfer "hosted" orders to "pick up" or "delivery" due to different design of "home-product" and "hosted-product"
- They offered me USD refund. I ended up with giving them a 4 month free loan and around 10% financial loss due to USD -> EUR currency change
- After that dunno, I heard they compensated "hosting" after day1/ day2 as well
- Overall a big mess for me - 10% financial loss and had to cancel my order. I funded KnC in early June and got screwed. Just my sad meaningless story - but still I know there were others in the same situation. Treat KnC hosting with caution and expect delays and skipping of order chain

[miahallen]

I bought a hosted Juptier, and now that all is said and done, I'm perfectly happy with the way they handled the situation.  Was there issues?  Yes.  But did they do their best to make up for it?  Yes!  They were about 10 days late getting my hosting online, but for the first 10 days of hosting, they had two (2) Jupiters hashing for me (and check their forums, I was not the only one).  I'd say they did very well by their customers, and for whose who didn't get their panties in a knot over every little details, it paid off big-time.  For people like de_ixie, you need to consider ventures like this as a very risky investment, which means you have to be able to stomach delays and fluctuations in the market.  If you can't handle it, then you're playing in the wrong game here.  I'm currently waiting on two CoinTerra miners (early January batch), and again, I'm not sweating the delays we're currently facing...it's all part of the game :-)

[volosator]

Technobit has good technology and terrible management and customer service. They claim to have a decent number of boards in stock on their site. However, they claim the boards to be "too expensive to produce in small quantities". Their customer support is very hard to catch and get the answers. Currently, there is a backlog since SEP-20-2013 for HEX16A (avalon1 based design).

BFL - were pioneers who first came up with an idea of ASIC implementation for bitcoin. They were not the first ones to deliver. Horrible customer service. Previous generation hardware was almost a year late. I have a 60Gh/s Single - very power hungry unit (283W) and very loud too.

Avalon - First to deliver ASIC machine to the market. Since then - royally screwed up customers for the batch 2 and 3 and almost all of bare chips delivery. Now selling gen2 chips which are worse than bitfury. Not sure what current delivery time frame.

Bitfury - everything on time as promised. No problems at all. No real customer support, everything is community driven. Chips can be chained together to archive desired performance, that makes board design easier. There was at least 3 different batches of chips, all had different labels. Initial batch was sold by Metabank in Russia, I met some of their staff personally - exceptional bright and talented folks.

Minerfactory - Selling boards for bitfury chips. My order was almost a month late. Actual value of the board on the customs form was 15 Euros when I paid almost $200 US. No instructions or cooling advice was provided. Did not reply any of emails I sent to them.

CanaryInTheMine - ASIC hardware reseller. Sells the USB sticks and sometimes other mining hardware, always upfront with his customers. I've been buying from him for the past 6 month and never had an issue. Very flexible.

KNC - I would rate them 7.5 of 10. They screwed up shipping instructions provided to them, resulting to a delay on customs. Package came beaten up, with missing corner. One of 4 modules was missing thermal compound. All modules were loose and could get damaged in shipping. BBB used as primary controller for SPI bus, not the best implementation of. October units could be overclocked. Unit design 3/5.

Hope that helps.


EDIT: added KNC

[DyslexicZombei]

Excellent idea Puppet. You win 2 internets for one day.  

I'll only give feedback with mfgs. I've personally dealt with. I have a unique perspective as someone that deals with manufacturers directly, is hardware neutral and represents both buyers and sellers. These are my own opinions and don't necessarily reflect the opinions of the rest of the co-op leaders I work with. Our Team hashrate on BTC Guild currently outranks Poland and the Russian Federation teams and we only have about 20% of our ordered miners online, FWIW.  
==


AMT: I've gone out of my way to try to help them as an American mfg. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304605.msg3322382#msg3322382

I told them over 2 months ago that their CSR rep on this forum was *not* cut out for CSR among this mix of battle hardened and complete noob miners: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304605.msg3457819#msg3457819

They resell Technobit Bitfury miners in Lian cases. The tech support that I saw for the two known miners in the wild seemed to have arisen from the community and not the company.


Avalon: Once he came out of "mafia" hiding, I once naively offered to help Yifu out of his hole via patient and dogged Customer Service for him. He ignored me. As someone that went on to found the largest BTC Miners Co-op in the English speaking world: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=335145.msg4370190#msg4370190

suffice to say: I could've turned his customer issues around 180 degrees if he would have let me. I *saw* him blithely ignore people begging him to either ship them their machines or refund their BTC for months. Avalon is permabanned from the DZ MC.


BFL: Late, late hardware and mean, vitriolic customer service. BFL is permabanned from the DZ MC


Bitfury: Missed out on the August batch which sold out in hours. Just as well, was delayed like most others. This chip is amazing and its from a 1st time chip designer! Dave in the US provides top notch customer service too. It is a bit overpriced though IMO.


Bitmain: Thumbs up guys! I rank this my #3 #1 ASIC mfg. at this time. They basically came out of left field and took everyone by surprise. EDIT: bobsag3, mentions he's seeing only a 2% hardware issue rate with our dozens of Bitmain miners as opposed to 100% hardware issue rates with KnC; reviews adjusted accordingly.


Bitmine: You seem like a nice guy Giorgio but you guys are late man. We've got two full Rigs awaiting delivery. They're supposed to add hashrate based on how late they are (up to a point, before a refund is triggered). If they can deliver soon with extra hashrate, they'll move up to the #2 spot on my ASIC mfg. list.


Black Arrow: These guys are awesome. Our Round 17 is the Exclusive Group Buy for X-3 Prosperos (paused at the moment). We also did an exclusive Bullet Run of Prospero Bitfury prototypes about 4 months before the February launch in Rounds 9-12 thanks to my business relationship with Miner Hosting LLC and Minersource.net, owned by bobsag3, one of the DZ MC co-op leaders. They are my #2 ASIC mfg. at this time. They still appear to be on track for a late February launch, and being based in Hong Kong does help in cutting down production and shipping times for mfgs. themselves.


Cointerra: I've entertained partnerships to do GBs for Cointerra but somehow our co-op didn't end up doing any Cointerra Group Buys in 22 Rounds of ASIC rig fundraising. They're late too, but I'm wishing them well. Almost did a big deal hosting for this mfg. with a 3rd party that contacted me (we went on to form a company together instead).


KnC: I know they've had problems setting up their first facility. We've experience some of the same growing pains recently with facility #2 a 6000+ square foot facility our co-op has set up just for crypto miners and manned by crypto miners. They were a little late with their delivery but it was a matter of weeks instead of months (or even 1 year+). They are my #1 #3 ASIC mfg. at this time. EDIT: bobsag3, head of our mining ops and owner of Miner Hosting LLC, mentioned that we've seen a 100% problem rate with every one of our Jupiters (over 10).


Hashfast: Besides lying to us as to how bad the production issues were and violating our privacy via a recent email link, they tried to basically trick their Batch 1 customers out of trying to get a full BTC refund by giving Batch 1 full USD refunds and making them sign a waiver that protects them from further legal retribution from you, the buyer.

Look at it from our POV: if you gave someone a bar of gold 3 months ago for a shipment and they didn't deliver for whatever reason, would you be happy with 1/10th of that gold bar being given back to you? This refund issue is faaaar from being over. They promised us FULL refunds, else we wouldn't have bothered doing fundraising for about 280 BTC worth of HashFast miners.

Hashfast is permabanned from the DZ MC.

[Puppet]

I appreciate the feedback. Ill let this run for a while longer and then make some adjustments based on what I read. But so far, it seems we are all broadly in agreement, which is a good thing .

[MWNinja]

You missed the first ASIC company to bring a product to market - ASICMiner.  Sells overpriced outdated technology at prices where the only one seeing ROI is ASICMiner.

[clenell]

AMT:
Avalon:
BFL:
Bitfury:
Bitmain:                                               
Bitmine:
Black Arrow:
Cointerra:
KnC:
Hashfast:

Love the information posted based on personal experience. Great idea to post in this format. However, try to keep your "opinions" out of it or you will destroy the good this thread could bring. Facts only and check your emotions at the door.

[LittleD]

Good thread   bump

[DyslexicZombei]

Love the information posted based on personal experience. Great idea to post in this format. However, try to keep your "opinions" out of it or you will destroy the good this thread could bring. Facts only and check your emotions at the door.

I disagree. One's opinions on a company can't help but color one's review of a mfg.. These opinions aren't formed in a vacuum but come from our accumulated knowledge of a manufacturers actions, plans, and public behavior.

For example: my opinion is that AMT and BFL offer awful customer service. This very well plays into my own decision making process when community fund raising hundreds of BTC on the behalf of trusting miners that join our co-op.

No offense but trying to discount or to not include our opinions on an ASIC mfg. review thread sounds protective of one or more of these mfgs.

Edit: HashFast is at the bottom, because that's my opinion of them changing TOS for Batch 1 and 2. Partial BTC refunds from them aren't going to cut it.

[clenell]

Love the information posted based on personal experience. Great idea to post in this format. However, try to keep your "opinions" out of it or you will destroy the good this thread could bring. Facts only and check your emotions at the door.

I disagree. One's opinions on a company can't help but color one's review of a mfg.. These opinions aren't formed in a vacuum but come from our accumulated knowledge of a manufacturers actions, plans, and public behavior.

For example: my opinion is that AMT and BFL offer awful customer service. This very well plays into my own decision making process when community fund raising hundreds of BTC on the behalf of trusting miners that join our co-op.

No offense but trying to discount or to not include our opinions on an ASIC mfg. review thread sounds protective of one or more of these mfgs.

Edit: HashFast is at the bottom, because that's my opinion of them changing TOS for Batch 1 and 2. Partial BTC refunds from them aren't going to cut it.

wrong. state the facts and let people decide for themselves. this is an informative piece not your editorial. kk thanks.

[Entropy-uc]

Opinions should be welcome, and self appointed censors should be ignored and / or deleted.

Puppet you should add a few dimensions to the evaluation:

Field failure rate: nothing sucks more than finally unboxing gear to find it doesn't function
Warranty coverage: 
Customer support:  is there dedicated staff?  what is typical response time?
Response time for RMA:
Refund policy for advance orders:
If you want to sue them, can you find them?:  a lot of these outfits make the mafia look accountable

I think your evaluation of Avalon is far too kind.  I actually think less of them than BFL.  They outright stole from Batch II customers.

We have had very good experiences with RMA'ing KNC hardware.  Positive responses, helpful advice on resolving problems, and a quick turn in the case where replacement was necessary.  The clip on design of the fan and heatsink isn't pretty, and forces every box to be opened and inspected but otherwise they have done well.

Cointerra customer support has been good.  They are clearly staffing a professional team and taking the right steps. I hope the next months confirm the positive view I have today.

[Bicknellski]

Love the information posted based on personal experience. Great idea to post in this format. However, try to keep your "opinions" out of it or you will destroy the good this thread could bring. Facts only and check your emotions at the door.

I disagree. One's opinions on a company can't help but color one's review of a mfg.. These opinions aren't formed in a vacuum but come from our accumulated knowledge of a manufacturers actions, plans, and public behavior.

For example: my opinion is that AMT and BFL offer awful customer service. This very well plays into my own decision making process when community fund raising hundreds of BTC on the behalf of trusting miners that join our co-op.

No offense but trying to discount or to not include our opinions on an ASIC mfg. review thread sounds protective of one or more of these mfgs.

Edit: HashFast is at the bottom, because that's my opinion of them changing TOS for Batch 1 and 2. Partial BTC refunds from them aren't going to cut it.

+1 it is all about the PERSONAL experience.

Here is how I see it. If you mess up and fix the problem then you are deserving of further trust think BuzzDave. If you mess up and do not fix the problem think Avalon / BFL / HashFast then you are undeserving of further trust.

Personal opinion matters as time passes and more opinions are collected you can see a much more clear picture of what is going on. If there are significant numbers of complaints and little or no resolution that speaks volumes. Whether or not people are polite or vitriolic in their complaints matters as little as does the patterns that develop. Can you really determine whether the company is good or bad based on a limited number of personal opinions? I think there is value in it if the experiences are first hand.

Avalon chip buy. I personally went through way too much drama and the excuses presented by Yifu and the lack of any proper communication for well over 9 weeks was more than enough for me and the members of a group that had raised 80,000 USD to buy chips to put me off EVER buying Avalon anything again. I would as others agree they are NOT nor should they ever be trusted again regardless of their ability to ship Batch 1.

BitFury chip buy. Was involved in a small order it was shipped on time without delays from Megapower BitFury USA.

BitMine.ch A1 chip buy. Involved in ongoing project getting 2 sample chips for the prototype we are building based on the fact we provided some support on the designs of the chip. 3 week delay there abouts as indicated by BitMine.ch. Has not adversely affected our prototype development. Fairly responsive team but they need to make sure they have a CRM system in place to handle potential issues with a very complex ASIC design.

Black Arrow Minion chip buy. Supported some of the documentation for the Minion we are currently waiting on some samples / full order when the chip fabrication gets done. No warning flags so far. Very responsive team that will need a much more robust CRM system as they were slightly caught out when they had a larger order volume swamp them. They seem to be delegating some of this work but we will see how this progresses.

That is the end of my list.

Now moving forward this should be STICKIED! This has to be the go to post for us in the community to guide and inform.



[Edit] Entropy-uc yes agree 100% with that

[descarte]

thats a comprehensive list. you basically covered everything!

Black Arrow - Their ticketing system is sloooowww. They delivered fpgas before but until they deliver a working asic, cannot judge them yet.

[de_ixie]

I bought a hosted Juptier, and now that all is said and done, I'm perfectly happy with the way they handled the situation.  Was there issues?  Yes.  But did they do their best to make up for it?  Yes!  They were about 10 days late getting my hosting online, but for the first 10 days of hosting, they had two (2) Jupiters hashing for me (and check their forums, I was not the only one).  I'd say they did very well by their customers, and for whose who didn't get their panties in a knot over every little details, it paid off big-time.  For people like de_ixie, you need to consider ventures like this as a very risky investment, which means you have to be able to stomach delays and fluctuations in the market.  If you can't handle it, then you're playing in the wrong game here.  I'm currently waiting on two CoinTerra miners (early January batch), and again, I'm not sweating the delays we're currently facing...it's all part of the game :-)

It is perfectly fine for both of us - you were satisfied with their service. I was not. I do my decision based on numbers, contracts, behaviour of my business partner and possible future outcome. You maybe have a different view/ threshold of what is acceptable and what not. Hosting situation mid Oct was unacceptable from my POV. KnC broke the ToS of their "Hosting" without offering me a proper compensation and/ or ETA. This brought me as a customer of KnC in a situation where it was economically senseless to stick with their offer.

You sticked with their hosted product in October - which is perfectly fine. You made a good deal. I used the refund money to buy BC instead. Even a better deal...  

I dont want to repeat myself to much here - it was pointed out several times by different people. Despite Hosting, some broken machines etc... KnC is still number #1

Edit: I want to go down even further on my argument above. This thread is majorly useful because we are all part of this unragulated experiment called Bitcoin. A lot of people here have good intentions and clever ideas and want to push Bitcoin to mainstream usability - but we also see so many market participants (not only in the mining business) abuse the unregulated enivronment. The major thing we can rely on is unfiltered & carefully interpreted experience of those who participate. We all want Bitcoin to be successful and as long as we have deficient global/ local legal frame the Bitcoin community itself has to find a way to protect itself.

Lets give credit where credit was earned and lets punish those who deserve punishment.

[dave111223]

Bitmain should be 5++ their delivery time is fantastic (received in like 3 days even during holidays)

Technobit has basically scammed me; they should be marked down at a 1 or 1.5 with BFL.  They don't send hardware, refunds, or even customer service emails; if you are lucky you receive your hardware a few months late.

P.S. I suspect the reason that AMT is sucking so bad is because they are heavily reliant on Technobit....bad move to build your business model around scammers.

[miahallen]

I bought a hosted Juptier, and now that all is said and done, I'm perfectly happy with the way they handled the situation.  Was there issues?  Yes.  But did they do their best to make up for it?  Yes!  They were about 10 days late getting my hosting online, but for the first 10 days of hosting, they had two (2) Jupiters hashing for me (and check their forums, I was not the only one).  I'd say they did very well by their customers, and for whose who didn't get their panties in a knot over every little details, it paid off big-time.  For people like de_ixie, you need to consider ventures like this as a very risky investment, which means you have to be able to stomach delays and fluctuations in the market.  If you can't handle it, then you're playing in the wrong game here.  I'm currently waiting on two CoinTerra miners (early January batch), and again, I'm not sweating the delays we're currently facing...it's all part of the game :-)

It is perfectly fine for both of us - you were satisfied with their service. I was not. I do my decision based on numbers, contracts, behaviour of my business partner and possible future outcome. You maybe have a different view/ threshold of what is acceptable and what not. Hosting situation mid Oct was unacceptable from my POV. KnC broke the ToS of their "Hosting" without offering me a proper compensation and/ or ETA. This brought me as a customer of KnC in a situation where it was economically senseless to stick with their offer.

You sticked with their hosted product in October - which is perfectly fine. You made a good deal. I used the refund money to buy BC instead. Even a better deal...  

I dont want to repeat myself to much here - it was pointed out several times by different people. Despite Hosting, some broken machines etc... KnC is still number #1

Edit: I want to go down even further on my argument above. This thread is majorly useful because we are all part of this unragulated experiment called Bitcoin. A lot of people here have good intentions and clever ideas and want to push Bitcoin to mainstream usability - but we also see so many market participants (not only in the mining business) abuse the unregulated enivronment. The major thing we can rely on is unfiltered & carefully interpreted experience of those who participate. We all want Bitcoin to be successful and as long as we have deficient global/ local legal frame the Bitcoin community itself has to find a way to protect itself.

Lets give credit where credit was earned and lets punish those who deserve punishment.

Well stated di_xie, some great points there 

[Puppet]

You missed the first ASIC company to bring a product to market - ASICMiner.  Sells overpriced outdated technology at prices where the only one seeing ROI is ASICMiner.

Well, I didnt forget them, but they dont seem to selling (directly) to end users anymore in so far they are still selling anything at all, so Im not sure its that relevant for this thread.

I did add VMC, I somehow seemed to have forgotten them, and Im surprised no one thought of pointing that out.

[DyslexicZombei]

Updating my scores and editing my OP based on new info:

KnC Jupiters (over 10 miners): 100% hardware issue rate (as in: we've been seeing problems with every miner received)
Bitmain (we have dozens of these miners) : 2% hardware issue rate

YMMV: but that's what we're seeing in the DZ Miners Cooperative.

So my top 3 ASIC mfgs at this time are:

#3 KnC
#2 Black Arrow
#1 Bitmain

[Puppet]

KnC Jupiters (over 10 miners): 100% hardware issue rate (as in: we've been seeing problems with every miner received)

Ouch. Where those all batch 1 jupiters? Also curious how he is rating KnC's customer support in dealing with the issues.
Anyway, downgraded KnC from 4.5 to 4, as Bobsag isnt exactly the only one reporting fairly severe QC issues.

[miaviator]

You should also quote gnar1ta$ in this guide:

Losing hundreds of Bitcoins with the best scammers in the business - BFL, Avalon, KNC, HashFast.

I'm fairly certain we've lost thousands not hundreds at this point.  I believe we have pre-ordered every Asic Ever.  Oops should stuck with money printing GPU's.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

You missed the first ASIC company to bring a product to market - ASICMiner.  Sells overpriced outdated technology at prices where the only one seeing ROI is ASICMiner.

Well, I didnt forget them, but they dont seem to selling (directly) to end users anymore in so far they are still selling anything at all, so Im not sure its that relevant for this thread.

I did add VMC, I somehow seemed to have forgotten them, and Im surprised no one thought of pointing that out.

Virtual Mining Corporation (VMC/AMC) ?/5
VMC is developing and selling preorders for 28nm structured asics, but havent shipped anything yet and havent really shown anything yet. Not much is known of their schedule and even less of the current project status, other than that its being delayed. Despite a public and verifiable partnership with eASIC, a well known semiconductor company with unquestionable expertise, and a business approach that in theory should enable fast time to market at relatively low risk, VMC is cloaked in so much secrecy that serious questions can be asked about their credibility.

http://virtualminingcorp.com/pr130904.pdf

“The fast design and turnaround time of Nexteme-3 28nm single via configuration ASIC devices coupled with the impressive performance and low power makes this an ideal solution for our Fast-Hash-One Bitcoin Mining Machines,” said Kenneth E. Slaughter, CEO of VMC. “The performance we have seen from the 28nm Nextreme-3 family has allowed us to develop a scalable platform that provides the computing power to satisfy the most demanding Bitcoin Mining cryptography problem.” added Slaughter

http://virtualminingcorp.com/about.html

Here at Virtual Mining Corporation we understand what Bitcoin miners want and need, because we are miners too.

Kenneth E. Slaughter, CEO Virtual Mining Corporation

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/virtual-mining-corp/springfield-missouri-65802/virtual-mining-corp-vmc-ripoff-by-virtual-mining-corp-vmc-bitcoin-mining-company-spring-1107833

I have pre purchased at bitcoin mining system from Kenneth Slaughter of http://virtualminingcorp.com
for $4700 for the last two weeks I have not been able to reach him. I have phoned and left voice messages and sent many emails asking him why he has not delivered in November the mining system. I wanted to know from him when he would be able to ship out the bitcoin miner!

 At this point has anyone else has problems with this company?
Any responsible business would at lest have a message to the customers on there website.


They would have people answering the office phone. So we have a single person for contact and he is not communicating?


The affiliate company to VMC called  Active Mining Corporation (Belize), I did a search online in belize and could not find this company?
VMC is getting there Asic chips from easic  http://www.easic.com
I don't know what Kenneth E Slaughter is doing but one thing I do know he has my money and I am starting to think that VMC company is not on the up and up!!!

Weekly Update: 1/8/13

Question From VinceSamios:

Update Requests:
When and Where will we be able to trade shares?

Crypto-Trade and ChromaWallet (colored Coins).  As soon as we get time to finish the
verification interface; however, our core business comes first and working on Intellihash.

When is the first batch of chips/boards supposed to arrive at VMC Assembly?

Our engineers are still designing our board. We had to change our engineering firm, and
learn a few lessons about hiring an engineer firm.  We don't have a date at this time.

What do you estimate the ActM hashrate be at the end of January, February and March?

Due to our inexperience with design, we have had a few set backs; however, we have hired
the most competent RTL design team to make sure that when we spin up our chip it will work.  They are
very competent at Low-Power and getting the most speed from the chip.

Do you have any more accurate energy efficiency figures yet? w/GH?

Not at this time.

Comment From The CEO

How I see us going forward is we will get our chip and boards into production as soon as possible.  Active Mining is in one of the best positions to take advantage of the Bitcoin network.  Once we have our chips and boards in production this year we will be one of only two companies in the world which manufactures Bitcoin mining hardware and also mines.  With this combination we have unlimited availability to bitcoin mining hardware only limited by our resources.  What I see in the future is bitcoin's exchange rate for USD going to over $10,000 in the next year.  If this happens Active Mining with its own chip, our current resources which will be increasing with the exchange rate, and eASIC as our partner will put us in an excellent position to dominate our market.  Intellihash will just be an added boost should it turn out to be a game changer.

Kenneth E. Slaughter, CEO/CTO


Forward Looking Statements:

This press release contains forward-looking statements, including, without limitation, statements related to VMC’s future sales and the value of bitcoin and future hashing rates. Words such as "expects" and similar expressions are intended to identify forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are based upon VMC’s current expectations. Forward-looking statements involve risks and uncertainties. The company’s actual results and the timing of events could differ materially from those anticipated in such forward-looking statements as a result of these risks and uncertainties, which include, without limitation, economic conditions, customer business environment and inventory levels, government and technological factors outside of our control, adoption and roll-out of products, risks related to ability to capitalize on growth opportunities and markets, risks related to our ability to manage our growth and other risks that may cause our business, industry, strategy or actual results to differ materially from the forward-looking statements. VMC expressly disclaims any obligation or undertaking to release publicly any updates or revisions to any forward-looking statements contained herein.

Active Mining PR-Staff

[LittleD]

Updating my scores and editing my OP based on new info:

KnC Jupiters (over 10 miners): 100% hardware issue rate (as in: we've been seeing problems with every miner received)
Bitmain (we have dozens of these miners) : 2% hardware issue rate

YMMV: but that's what we're seeing in the DZ Miners Cooperative.

So my top 3 ASIC mfgs at this time are:

#3 KnC
#2 Black Arrow
#1 Bitmain

hmmmm i wonder where you got the new info 

hint hint 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=409091.msg4435258#msg4435258

hint hint 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=403921.0

[amer]

Should ASICMINER be up there? There have been blades, sticks and cubes as the only real hardware you could reliably get your hands on for quite some time.

[Easy2Mine]

I think KnC deserve a 5+ for overpromising and overdelivering. 

[gurki]

I want to thank everyone for taking their time to respond to this thread (and the thread op of course)  , it has been very informative.

[faetos]

Good start. From private experience - despite everything positive KnC achieved - they majorly screwed up hosting and forced me into refunding my Oct Jupiters mid of October - and I know that I am not the only one who paid for their "premium" hosting upfront and received second hand treatment. They skipped order chain and delivered "postal" and "pick up" orders weeks before hosted. I suspect this is also the reason why they do not offer hosting for Neptune atm - Never ever, ever I would recommend KnC hosting... never... period. I would not deduct any points in your rating - they did an amazing job overall. Maybe just mention to treat KnC hosting with big caution.

Thats an excellent point I had overseen/forgotten. Indeed, their hosting service was quite a disaster (and way overpriced). Whats the situation on that now? Are they at all hosting for customers ? Did they refund the hosting and allow you to self host your miner?

The situation when I stopped following KnC hosting debacle:

- First: They advertised premium price "hosting" with "hashing a few hours after production of your rig" - this is why ppl bought it -> big fail 
- They hosted day1 / day 2 customers almost in timely manner (late, but with somewhat fair compensation)
- After that: They delivered *postal* and *pick-up* orders following the order chain
- They skipped order chain for "hosted orders", around mid of Oct I saw people after me in the order chain presenting their rigs here in the forum
- I called KnC and asked for clarification. Answer: We dont know when our hosting will go online and no it was not possible to transfer "hosted" orders to "pick up" or "delivery" due to different design of "home-product" and "hosted-product"
- They offered me USD refund. I ended up with giving them a 4 month free loan and around 10% financial loss due to USD -> EUR currency change
- After that dunno, I heard they compensated "hosting" after day1/ day2 as well
- Overall a big mess for me - 10% financial loss and had to cancel my order. I funded KnC in early June and got screwed. Just my sad meaningless story - but still I know there were others in the same situation. Treat KnC hosting with caution and expect delays and skipping of order chain

Same exact story for me. No miners, lost revenue, super disappointed especially on the very poor communication from KnC. Do not do hosting with them.

[Ytterbium]

I'm reselling some BTCGarden based hardware in the US, if anyone's interested. Hopefully sending my first shipments on Monday, if anyone orders.

[miaviator]

I'm reselling some BTCGarden based hardware in the US, if anyone's interested. Hopefully sending my first shipments on Monday, if anyone orders.

I think Unicorn Hasher should be added to the list as well. Pre-orders are coming soon and we are shipping the Baby Unicorn Miner right now.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=412586.0

[DyslexicZombei]

KnC Jupiters (over 10 miners): 100% hardware issue rate (as in: we've been seeing problems with every miner received)

Ouch. Where those all batch 1 jupiters? Also curious how he is rating KnC's customer support in dealing with the issues.
Anyway, downgraded KnC from 4.5 to 4, as Bobsag isnt exactly the only one reporting fairly severe QC issues.

This is a 50/50 mix of Batch 1 and 2 Jupiters.

KnC can be a little slow about shipping replacement hardware. I'm guessing we're not the only ones needing replacement parts. That's normal in the biz...the hardware issue rate of 100% our guys are seeing with our KnC miners is not normal for the biz. The Bitmains have proven to be much less problematic for us.

[NecroBones]

You missed the first ASIC company to bring a product to market - ASICMiner.  Sells overpriced outdated technology at prices where the only one seeing ROI is ASICMiner.

Well, I didnt forget them, but they dont seem to selling (directly) to end users anymore in so far they are still selling anything at all, so Im not sure its that relevant for this thread.

I think it is relevant, mainly because a lot of newbies start out by scanning ebay to see what they can find, and it's knee-deep in Block Erupters. So I'd add an entry for it, and just note that it's mainly in the secondary market now.

[Puppet]

added some words about asicminer, and fixed some typo's.

[miaviator]

added some words about asicminer, and fixed some typo's.

And Ignored the biggest ASIC ever to hit bitcoin. 

[Inaba]

Why do you insist on posting so many falsehoods about BFL?  BFL's 28nm is not "already 2 - 3 months late," it's less than a month "late" if you can even say that as we never guaranteed a timeframe.  On top of that, "no sign of silicon" is just completely false.

GG for posting FUD!

[miaviator]

Why do you insist on posting so many falsehoods about BFL?  BFL's 28nm is not "already 2 - 3 months late," it's less than a month "late" if you can even say that as we never guaranteed a timeframe.  On top of that, "no sign of silicon" is just completely false.

GG for posting FUD!

Sadly Inaba is correct.  On all counts. 

[LittleD]

Why do you insist on posting so many falsehoods about BFL?  BFL's 28nm is not "already 2 - 3 months late," it's less than a month "late" if you can even say that as we never guaranteed a timeframe.  On top of that, "no sign of silicon" is just completely false.

GG for posting FUD!

lol What! ," it's less than a month "late" but you "nerver guaranteed a timeframe" LOL come on dude!/

Guy's lets stick to the subject "Newbie guide to ASIC vendors"!

Thanks

[Puppet]

Why do you insist on posting so many falsehoods about BFL?  BFL's 28nm is not "already 2 - 3 months late," it's less than a month "late" if you can even say that as we never guaranteed a timeframe.  On top of that, "no sign of silicon" is just completely false.

GG for posting FUD!

You promised first shipment to your first monarch customers for october/november. Maybe you forgot with all the delays you announce, it must be hard to keep track. But we are mid january and you dont even have chips. Of course its possible you are on track with your internal schedule, but clearly not with the one you published.

As for no silicon in sight, I have not seen any, and neither have you. So eat that.

[Inaba]

Can you point out where there was a promise?  No?  Oops, you are a liar!

I mean, god forbid you post true information... that would actually paint BFL in a kinder light.  No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

Pathetic.

[Syke]

Can you point out where there was a promise?  No?  Oops, you are a liar!

I mean, god forbid you post true information... that would actually paint BFL in a kinder light.  No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

Pathetic.

Your attempts at avoiding the "late" issue are pathetic. BFL is months late. Again. And again. And again.

[Entropy-uc]

Can you point out where there was a promise?  No?  Oops, you are a liar!

I mean, god forbid you post true information... that would actually paint BFL in a kinder light.  No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

Pathetic.

Your attempts at avoiding the "late" issue are pathetic. BFL is months late. Again. And again. And again.

Cash flow must be getting tight over at scam your customers central.

At least one ASIC vendor will go bankrupt holding investor customer money this year.  I'd feel terrible if it happened to as 'special' a guy as Josh.

[miaviator]

Can you point out where there was a promise?  No?  Oops, you are a liar!

I mean, god forbid you post true information... that would actually paint BFL in a kinder light.  No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

Pathetic.

Your attempts at avoiding the "late" issue are pathetic. BFL is months late. Again. And again. And again.

You are highly impatient sir.  I waited over 13 Months for my first BFL.  You should still have an expected wait of 7-10 months before they are actually "Late"

[Syke]

You are highly impatient sir.  I waited over 13 Months for my first BFL.  You should still have an expected wait of 7-10 months before they are actually "Late"

LOL. Good one.

Well, since they're still a long ways from shipping any Monarchs, the 7 month delay is still quite possible.

[LittleD]

Can you point out where there was a promise?  No?  Oops, you are a liar!

I mean, god forbid you post true information... that would actually paint BFL in a kinder light.  No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

Pathetic.

Why do you insist on posting so many falsehoods about BFL?  BFL's 28nm is not "already 2 - 3 months late," it's less than a month "late" if you can even say that as we never guaranteed a timeframe.  On top of that, "no sign of silicon" is just completely false.

GG for posting FUD!

Guy's lets stick to the subject "Newbie guide to ASIC vendors"



I hope Puppet deletes some of are comments, this is a good thread for Newbie's. Don't let "Inaboba" stirrup you emotions with more lies :/

[SirWizz]

That's normal in the biz...the hardware issue rate of 100% our guys are seeing with our KnC miners is not normal for the biz. The Bitmains have proven to be much less problematic for us.

You must have had either bad luck or bad luck. Some friends of mine had only one defective module out of the 7 Jupiters they ordered. Also, your (and my) sample size are too small to count as valid statistics, the only people that know the actual failure rate are the people working at KNC.

[Puppet]

Ok, Ill bite. Here is what you posted in august of last year:

Middle/Late October
Chips are out of the fab and sent to the slice, bump and packaging facility
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/4414-monarch-information.html

When did this happen ?  Two days ago, January 13th:
Chips have arrived at the packaging facility!
https://twitter.com/BFL_Josh/status/422780954461999104

How exactly is that "less than a month" late? Thats almost 3 months late, just like I wrote, "2-3 months". So far.

From that same link:
We did not reach our goal of November delivery.

You didnt reach it in December either. And I bet you a pretty penny you will not reach it in January either. But you dare say with a straight face you are less than a month late?

[baloo_kiev]

No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

BFL hate will be going until you admit your fault, quit mining hardware business and feel ashamed at least a little bit. I mean you failed on your promises so many times, how even dare you to log in to this forum? BFL hate is not about missed deadlines anymore, it's more about the fact that YOU haven't learned any damn thing from it, not even simply watching your mouth!


P.S. On the topic: HashFast = BFL, no product delivery and refuse to refund customers as promised, 1.5 months after the deadline now.

[miaviator]

No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

BFL hate will be going until you admit your fault, quit mining hardware business and feel ashamed at least a little bit. I mean you failed on your promises so many times, how even dare you to log in to this forum? BFL hate is not about missed deadlines anymore, it's more about the fact that YOU haven't learned any damn thing from it, not even simply watching your mouth!

Is it true that HashFast Hired BFL asic consulting services to assist with production and timelines on the BabyJet?  Or just a rumor?

[Inaba]

Ok, Ill bite. Here is what you posted in august of last year:

Middle/Late October
Chips are out of the fab and sent to the slice, bump and packaging facility
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/4414-monarch-information.html

When did this happen ?  Two days ago, January 13th:
Chips have arrived at the packaging facility!
https://twitter.com/BFL_Josh/status/422780954461999104

How exactly is that "less than a month" late? Thats almost 3 months late, just like I wrote, "2-3 months". So far.

From that same link:
We did not reach our goal of November delivery.

You didnt reach it in December either. And I bet you a pretty penny you will not reach it in January either. But you dare say with a straight face you are less than a month late?

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  So again, please cite example where a promise was made... You chose the right picture, you are definitely a liar.

[baloo_kiev]

Is it true that HashFast Hired BFL asic consulting services to assist with production and timelines on the BabyJet?  Or just a rumor?

Nice joke. Yeah, it's time for them to hire Inaba.

[SirWizz]

So I guess it's OK to take people's money and deliver whenever you feel like it as long as you say it was just an "estimate"? 

Hey guys, SirWizz Asics just opened shop, 5TH/s for only US $5,000!!!!!!!! ETA is April 2014. That is with a capital E as in Estimated btw .

[miaviator]

So I guess it's OK to take people's money and deliver whenever you feel like it as long as you say it was just an "estimate"? 

Hey guys, SirWizz Asics just opened shop, 5TH/s for only US $5,000!!!!!!!! ETA is April 2014. That is with a capital E as in Estimated btw .

That's nothing compared to the Unicron Hasher 50Thash Live Unicron Hasher for 10BTC.  Link in my signature.

Also yes.  So long as no one commits a hashfast and put guaranteed it is perfectly legal to set consumer expectations and then fail to meet them.

Name a company who did meet the expectation they set on pre-order hardware.  Without mis-informing people and acting like KnC wasn't 30+ days late.

[SirWizz]

Name a company who did meet the expectation they set on pre-order hardware.  Without mis-informing people and acting like KnC wasn't 30+ days late.

As I mentioned before, as a first day customer of KNC I have received my order about 8 days late but with 30% more hashing power. I had plenty of people ahead of me (order 4xx) so others were probably even luckier.

So you're right I can't really point to any company that did meet the pre-order expectations because in my case, expectations were exceeded and I don't have experience with another company. Not saying that it is the same for everyone that ordered from KNC, some were luckier and some maybe worse off. I think overall though people were (are?) fairly pleased with KNC.

[Inaba]

Name a company who did meet the expectation they set on pre-order hardware.  Without mis-informing people and acting like KnC wasn't 30+ days late.

As I mentioned before, as a first day customer of KNC I have received my order about 8 days late but with 30% more hashing power. I had plenty of people ahead of me (order 4xx) so others were probably even luckier.

So you're right I can't really point to any company that did meet the pre-order expectations because in my case, expectations were exceeded and I don't have experience with another company. Not saying that it is the same for everyone that ordered from KNC, some were luckier and some maybe worse off. I think overall though people were (are?) fairly pleased with KNC.

Really?  8 days late?  You received your order last summer?  It was my understanding they shipped in October and promised shipping in summer... amazing that you were the only person to receive their unit sometime last summer while everyone else had to wait until October.  You must have quite an "in" over there in KnC land.

[Syke]

Really?  8 days late?  You received your order last summer?  It was my understanding they shipped in October and promised shipping in summer... amazing that you were the only person to receive their unit sometime last summer while everyone else had to wait until October.  You must have quite an "in" over there in KnC land.

Yes, KnC was a several days late, but delivered extra hashrate. How much extra hashrate are Monarchs going to have that are will be several months late?

[faetos]

If I order a Monarch now when will I get it?

[Puppet]

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  

un-fucking-believable. I said you were 2-3 months late. I dont care if that was a promise or an estimate. Are you 2-3 months late, or are you not?

Anyway, good job proving newbies why trusting you or your company is insane. IN case anyone didnt know, Inaba is the COO of BFL and this is how he conducts business:

[Inaba]

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  

un-fucking-believable. I said you were 2-3 months late. I dont care if that was a promise or an estimate. Are you 2-3 months late, or are you not?

Anyway, good job proving newbies why trusting you or your company is insane. IN case anyone didnt know, Inaba is the COO of BFL and this is how he conducts business:

Un-fucking-believable!  You state we are 2 - 3 months late and then cite a page where it explicitly says, and I quote "this timeline is not a hard and fast timeline and is not meant to be the bible of how we will be rolling out this product."

Here, let me quote another part of that SAME post you linked from:  "This is our current projected timeline. It is subject to change."  Do you read English and understand it?  It would seem not.

That is a direct quote from the page you yourself quoted and here you are trying to pass off your stupid bullshit as some sort of promise that we would deliver on a specific date.  You are truly a piece of shit and you've ruined your own thread by posting blatantly false and biased information, even faced with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, you still hold fast to your lies.  Good job proving why newbies should not trust you in any fashion!  You are completely worthless and unable to admit that you have made a mistake and are now a confirmed, demonstrated liar.  How do you expect anyone to trust anything else you've written?

[Minor Miner]

Really?  8 days late?  You received your order last summer?  It was my understanding they shipped in October and promised shipping in summer... amazing that you were the only person to receive their unit sometime last summer while everyone else had to wait until October.  You must have quite an "in" over there in KnC land.

Oh come on Inaba, I know you love BFL but even you have to admit that they are chronic fuck ups and that Josh guy they hired is a complete disaster and goofball.   I kind of had faith in you when you demanded that everyone post under their real name so they could all "man up" to their statements, but all this defending of bitcoin's most embarrassing company (yifu beat them in my books and some would say pirate@40 was up there too) is starting to disappoint me.   I am almost starting to feel like you are a sock puppet for BFL.
Just when I thought Inaba was the one straight shooter on this forum.

[LittleD]

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate." 

un-fucking-believable. I said you were 2-3 months late. I dont care if that was a promise or an estimate. Are you 2-3 months late, or are you not?

Anyway, good job proving newbies why trusting you or your company is insane. IN case anyone didnt know, Inaba is the COO of BFL and this is how he conducts business:

Un-fucking-believable!  You state we are 2 - 3 months late and then cite a page where it explicitly says, and I quote "this timeline is not a hard and fast timeline and is not meant to be the bible of how we will be rolling out this product."

Here, let me quote another part of that SAME post you linked from:  "This is our current projected timeline. It is subject to change."  Do you read English and understand it?  It would seem not.

That is a direct quote from the page you yourself quoted and here you are trying to pass off your stupid bullshit as some sort of promise that we would deliver on a specific date.  You are truly a piece of shit and you've ruined your own thread by posting blatantly false and biased information, even faced with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, you still hold fast to your lies.  Good job proving why newbies should not trust you in any fashion!  You are completely worthless and unable to admit that you have made a mistake and are now a confirmed, demonstrated liar.  How do you expect anyone to trust anything else you've written?

Really?  8 days late?  You received your order last summer?  It was my understanding they shipped in October and promised shipping in summer... amazing that you were the only person to receive their unit sometime last summer while everyone else had to wait until October.  You must have quite an "in" over there in KnC land.

Yes, KnC was a several days late, but delivered extra hashrate. How much extra hashrate are Monarchs going to have that are will be several months late?

Yes please let us know how much extra hasrate customers are going to get

[gmaxwell]

Usually when the presentation of a matter of fact is contested you can usually make a version which everyone agrees is acceptable simply by adding a bit more information.

Instead of  "Their 28nm product is already 2-3 months late and no silicon in sight so far", you can say something like:

For their latest 28nm product BFL originally advertised a target of X, but when they also said "this timeline is not a hard and fast timeline and is not meant to be the bible of how we will be rolling out this product." and "This is our current projected timeline. It is subject to change." they weren't kidding around: It's now X past that "target" and the network difficulty is now Y times higher then when they started taking orders, and they haven't yet demonstrated a working chip much less shipped any to anyone.

As far as criticism goes, I think this is even more effective (e.g. tells the reader why they should care), avoids the rat hole of arguing over what "late" means which some readers may use as an excuse to justify ignoring your complaint ("I read elsewhere that it was just a target, this guy has an axe to grind!"), and avoids sounding too whiny.

When you've really got a strong position you can usually concede every ambiguous point to your opponent and walk away all the more convincing for it. Getting into knife fights over every last issue makes you look weak, desperate, or biased (something some of the vendors around here should learn!).

[Puppet]

Usually when the presentation of a matter of fact is contested you can usually make a version which everyone agrees is acceptable simply by adding a bit more information.

I have no ambition to write something BFL (and all the other vendors) will agree with. They can ask their PR firm to do that for them. There is a clear disclaimer in the first paragraphs.

As for the definition of "late". There cant be any discussion that its several months later than they originally (claimed they) expected. Of course delays "changing timelines" can happen, the point is that it did happen (over and over again). When unexpected  things cause a shift in delivery schedule or planning, I cant call that anything other than a delay. They only way for it not to be a delay is if the shift was not unexpected. In that case, its indeed not late, but then they lied.

Frankly Im embarrassed for BFL the way Josh tries to make a point that because they gave no formal promise, this delay didnt happen. By his logic they can ship in 2020 and still be not be late. But in a way its good he's writing it here, so prospective newbie customers can find out first hand just how little it means when BFL states something.

[Ytterbium]

Why do you insist on posting so many falsehoods about BFL?  BFL's 28nm is not "already 2 - 3 months late," it's less than a month "late" if you can even say that as we never guaranteed a timeframe.  On top of that, "no sign of silicon" is just completely false.

GG for posting FUD!

Oh so when you you plastered "Shipping in october" all over you had your fingers crossed behind your back so it didn't count? The obvious joke is that you didn't specify a year, but seriously - just go fuck yourself you delusional nutjob.

You are obviously 3 months late from the date you specified when you launched the product.

Can you point out where there was a promise?  No?  Oops, you are a liar!

I mean, god forbid you post true information... that would actually paint BFL in a kinder light.  No, it's better to post false information to keep the BFL hate going, no matter what the truth of the matter is.

Pathetic.

He never said you promised to deliver on time, he just said you were late, which you are. He wrote:

Have delivered several PH of 65nm hardware, but are notorious for delivering extremely late and often underspec. Customer support is completely inadequate and incapable of handling the volume they receive . Their own forum contains countless reports of DOA's and machines breaking down after only a few weeks. In particular, dying/sparking/burning PSU's. TO be fair, BFL is one of the largest suppliers out there, its difficult to estimate what % of their sales these stories represent. Their 28nm product is already 2-3 months late and no silicon in sight so far.

No mention of any "promise", so his statement is completely accurate.

___

Btw, when I ordered my KnC it was for "October delivery".  They actually delivered it in the middle of October, so it was actually early compared to what I agreed too, which would have been the "before the end of October"

[Bicknellski]

Yes why not just ask a customer how they feel about promises?

They lied. They missed the dates. They are more than just late. They are not able to able to estimate anything close to a real production timeline. This is the 3rd time they have done this.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280630.msg3000555#msg3000555

August 25, 2013, 02:33:58

Hi,

Few days ago I ordered 2 Monarch cards from BFL.

When I ordered they say delivery is estimated in October/November.

Now I see the first batch is sold out (http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/)

But the delivery dates they publish for the sold out dates are... "November/December"

Looks like they got another month delay just few days after they start taking orders...

If they finish the "tape out" few few days ago and at that time they estimate 60-90 days what can change now to get an estimation of 90-120 days.

With 60-90 days was a risky bet to buy... with 120 is a suicide.

I know may I have been an idiot buying from them.

Regards

I count 4 months and it will likely end up being closer to 6+ given they have no working chips at this point. The 1.5 is generous at this point a 0/5 would be appropriate.

[faetos]

So, if I order a BFL Monarch card when will I get it?

[Bicknellski]

No one knows when it will ship if you buy today. Estimated times vary so wildly with BFL you can't be certain. If anyone at BFL states a date for shipping it would not be accurate as they have never even come close to actually meeting their estimated or set target dates for delivery on any units they have ever built or are building currently.

Looks like they got another month delay just few days after they start taking orders...

[LittleD]

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  

un-fucking-believable. I said you were 2-3 months late. I dont care if that was a promise or an estimate. Are you 2-3 months late, or are you not?

Anyway, good job proving newbies why trusting you or your company is insane. IN case anyone didnt know, Inaba is the COO of BFL and this is how he conducts business:

Un-fucking-believable!  

  Wow what big words you are using ~ I don't think I understand what was that again

[Ytterbium]

So, if I order a BFL Monarch card when will I get it?

Interesting that josh was so active in the thread, yet ignored this question.

[Puppet]

Interesting that josh was so active in the thread, yet ignored this question.

Because I already answered it.



What I find more interesting is that he chooses to argue semantics about what constitutes a delay, while apparently taking no issue with the rest of the claims in my OP. True, they are hard to deny, but if I were a BFL spindoctor, at least Id try.

[faetos]

That's the reason I asked it. This is actually a good newbie thread. They can see why people have the reaction that they do. Questions about actual products are ignored, but personal attacks are engaged with fervor. If I were looking to invest in a company's products would I invest in a company who's C-Level executives act in such a manner? Probably not.

[Syke]

That's the reason I asked it. This is actually a good newbie thread. They can see why people have the reaction that they do. Questions about actual products are ignored, but personal attacks are engaged with fervor. If I were looking to invest in a company's products would I invest in a company who's C-Level executives act in such a manner? Probably not.

And in the interest of full disclosure for the newbies, we need to point at that Inaba is actually a senior level executive at BFL that posts under a pseudonym rather than his official Bitcointalk account so that he can try to avoid linking his vitriol with the official company name and continue to shill for them. BFL is the same company that is chronically late with all their product releases.

[testerx]

Updating my scores and editing my OP based on new info:

KnC Jupiters (over 10 miners): 100% hardware issue rate (as in: we've been seeing problems with every miner received)
Bitmain (we have dozens of these miners) : 2% hardware issue rate

YMMV: but that's what we're seeing in the DZ Miners Cooperative.

So my top 3 ASIC mfgs at this time are:

#3 KnC
#2 Black Arrow
#1 Bitmain

Why is black arrow #2 when there has been nothing but problems with group buys 9-12 and their black arrow boards?  Even now after months there are still board failures and the hashrate isn't even the minimum originally expected.

[Bicknellski]

Updating my scores and editing my OP based on new info:

KnC Jupiters (over 10 miners): 100% hardware issue rate (as in: we've been seeing problems with every miner received)
Bitmain (we have dozens of these miners) : 2% hardware issue rate

YMMV: but that's what we're seeing in the DZ Miners Cooperative.

So my top 3 ASIC mfgs at this time are:

#3 KnC
#2 Black Arrow
#1 Bitmain

Why is black arrow #2 when there has been nothing but problems with group buys 9-12 and their black arrow boards?  Even now after months there are still board failures and the hashrate isn't even the minimum originally expected.

Please post a review... that way the ratings will change.

[DyslexicZombei]

That's normal in the biz...the hardware issue rate of 100% our guys are seeing with our KnC miners is not normal for the biz. The Bitmains have proven to be much less problematic for us.

You must have had either bad luck or bad luck. Some friends of mine had only one defective module out of the 7 Jupiters they ordered. Also, your (and my) sample size are too small to count as valid statistics, the only people that know the actual failure rate are the people working at KNC.

You have a valid point, but then I love how you just used a sample size of approximately half the size of my sample size as proof that my feedback isn't valid!  

All I can tell you, is that the dozens of Bitmains have been a dream to work with compared with the KnC Jupiters in our small sample size of 12 KnC miners, half from Batch 1 and half from Batch 2 ordered in about 4 or 5 separate orders. Our latest 4 Jupiters are *finally* working well, but it wasn't easy or accomplished in a very short period either. It's not like our guys don't know what they're doing either, these are veteran hosts with prior Jupiter experience, and at the moment, they're handling about 21 TH/s from a mix of mfgs.

Also: if any other US miner hosts want to take over hosting (and are willing to be vetted), there are Jupiters in-stock and on-hand now for anyone willing to try their luck. You're more than welcome to take one or two of these off of our hands SirWizz.  

[thomashrev89]

Ok, Ill bite. Here is what you posted in august of last year:

Middle/Late October
Chips are out of the fab and sent to the slice, bump and packaging facility
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/4414-monarch-information.html

When did this happen ?  Two days ago, January 13th:
Chips have arrived at the packaging facility!
https://twitter.com/BFL_Josh/status/422780954461999104

How exactly is that "less than a month" late? Thats almost 3 months late, just like I wrote, "2-3 months". So far.

From that same link:
We did not reach our goal of November delivery.

You didnt reach it in December either. And I bet you a pretty penny you will not reach it in January either. But you dare say with a straight face you are less than a month late?

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  So again, please cite example where a promise was made... You chose the right picture, you are definitely a liar.

Spoken like a true rat. I know you said that you are just being an asshole because it will generate sales but this fuck you attitude to your customers is going to backfire. a business model where you lure noobs that dont know your history of false advertisment to buy your gear can not sustain.

[miaviator]

Ok, Ill bite. Here is what you posted in august of last year:

Middle/Late October
Chips are out of the fab and sent to the slice, bump and packaging facility
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/4414-monarch-information.html

When did this happen ?  Two days ago, January 13th:
Chips have arrived at the packaging facility!
https://twitter.com/BFL_Josh/status/422780954461999104

How exactly is that "less than a month" late? Thats almost 3 months late, just like I wrote, "2-3 months". So far.

From that same link:
We did not reach our goal of November delivery.

You didnt reach it in December either. And I bet you a pretty penny you will not reach it in January either. But you dare say with a straight face you are less than a month late?

Except you conveniently left out the part where it says it's an "estimate."  So again, please cite example where a promise was made... You chose the right picture, you are definitely a liar.

Spoken like a true rat. I know you said that you are just being an asshole because it will generate sales but this fuck you attitude to your customers is going to backfire. a business model where you lure noobs that dont know your history of false advertisment to buy your gear can not sustain.

Really?

I would have agreed with you 13 months after ordering the SC's.  I'm now fairly certain that the pretty pictures and massive advertising campaign are going to keep BFL in business.  This isn't an endorsement for BFL it's just the sad truth.

[Ytterbium]

BFL and hashfast should both be rated zero, IMO.

[LittleD]

BFL and hashfast should both be rated zero, IMO.

+1