Fork The Blockchain And Block The Seized FBI Coins.

[samjtemp]

As a decentralized currency Bitcoin has proven itself to function well with the "If the majority feels a change should be made" then it can, and promptly like with the double spend bug a few years ago that required miners to adopt a new fork. This is an excellent advantage as it can be adaptable but not easily manipulated.

I believe we, the Community, Miners, and Dev's should use the power again, this time to remove the seized coins as they represent a huge threat. Investors all over the world are asking "when are these going to hit the market, and in what way?"

There is not a single advantage that any of us to gain by this situation and should be held to the same standards of a thief or hacker.



    The Fed's stole those coins.

They are enemies to our community, likely planning to dump onto the market to cause a flash crash. They could wait for a natural correction to happen, or other bad news to make the effect be
especially catastrophic.
 
Highly undesirable for the United States Government to be 1.5% shareholders.

It would be different if they purchased these coins or earned them. I wouldn't recommend us invalidating coins with impunity, whether it be US Government, China, North Korea, or even Bank Of America
but if the coins are stolen with no chance to be given back to the original owner, then why not?

We could also do this with Hackers who use massive botchains that generate 1 Million or more, or hacking online wallets. This has damaged many Exchanges and Businesses that had to shut down, could not pay
back the users, which left a scar on the Community. The kind that only heals slowly with time, and many of those burned; their families, friends, and associates will never come back to us.

Could you imagine the kind of positive PR that would create, to be able to pay back the victims of many of those incidents? People who's bitcoin's are now worth hundred's of thousands of dollars who thought they
were completely left out in the cold? The amount of risk and hesitation mitigated by the fact that large scale hacking operations would always be doomed to fail?

Major Companies get hacked all the time and tens of millions of credit cards/ financial data are stolen. These large scale operations make up the majority and are ran by a select few who possess high levels of skill and connections to other professionals, as most script kiddies with generic trojans are able to do more than spy on your cam and screw with your computer. Out of those tens of millions they are only able to profit at a very small fraction of what they have stolen, but with bitcoin companies and users, they get 100% of it, and it is gone. Just like that.

We could also create a system that blocks entities that put the network at risk for 50% + 1 attacks. The US Government (or the myriad of other entities who have both the money and will to make it happen) create's a warehouse of super computers that is rapidly dominating the network with the force to destroy it? Deny them access to the blockchain. Even that Gash.IO could for all we know be funded by a hostile operator with full intentions to bring down the blockchain. If it can be done so easily then what about next year when Bitcoin is a major force in the financial world and currencies/long ago established financial institutions become desperate? It's practically a certainty that they will strike.  Having a strong hashing power only protects us from hackers and small organizations - it will never be able to protect us from major Governments. They built two data storage facilities the size of A CITY in the desert just to spy on people. Imagine what they could do by with cutting edge ASIC technology and unlimited funding. Even 10 years from now and mainstream adoption it would be TRIVIAL for them to create this attack. They wouldn't even need to develop it, just physically assault some of the larger ASIC hashing farms and other attacks are possible. Mine to increase the difficulty then suddenly turn them off, targetting the most popular alt coins. Now a single transaction takes 3-5 hours to clear. Do this repeatedly so it becomes the norm and the currency is practically unusable.

I know 99% of users hate the ideas of regulation, centralization, and authoritarian movements such as this one but remember what is actually at stake here.

If they had dumped those coins during the Chinese panic it likely would of destroyed Bitcoin forever.

And they have EVERY reason to benefit by doing so. The only thing stopping the FED's is how they can't use those wallets until the trial is over.

[poppys]

You just don't get it.  Before you type anything on your keyboard again. Take a basic math course.

[HairyMaclairy]

Is the community going to take back bitcoins every time it doesn't like someone? 

[kwoody]

Never know, OP could be the FBI and trolling us.

Unfortunate as it is, DPR didn't secure the wallet well enough, and those BTC are now being used as evidence in the case against him.

If I had been in DPR's shoes, I would've had a sort of "Dead Man's Switch" setup in case of arrest/death. Like a box somewhere that would trigger an upload of the wallet.dat and password, if a private key didn't get entered into that machine every 24 hours, or something. Illicit activities involving millions of USD? Seems silly to not have a Plan B... and Plan C/D/E/F...

Ironically, the only exchange that might consider taking those coins is BTC-E; the only major exchange that doesn't really require dox on clients.

[b!z]

Even a million worthless Bitcoins are still worthless.

[samjtemp]

"Is the community going to take back bitcoins every time it doesn't like someone? "

There are only a couple of activities that would cause the entire community (we aren't just referring to bitcointalk here) A major hack resulting in funds being stolen, Government/bank interference, a centralized Minning pool carelessly (or aggressively hostile) takeover of the market.

It's not like you'd have to keep popularity with the Dev's otherwise they can blackmail you. I'm not suggesting the community give them that kind of power but I think that will be how a lot of people interpret it.

Never know, OP could be the FBI and trolling us.

Unfortunate as it is, DPR didn't secure the wallet well enough, and those BTC are now being used as evidence in the case against him.

If I had been in DPR's shoes, I would've had a sort of "Dead Man's Switch" setup in case of arrest/death. Like a box somewhere that would trigger an upload of the wallet.dat and password, if a private key didn't get entered into that machine every 24 hours, or something. Illicit activities involving millions of USD? Seems silly to not have a Plan B... and Plan C/D/E/F...

Ironically, the only exchange that might consider taking those coins is BTC-E; the only major exchange that doesn't really require dox on clients.

DPR did a lot of stupid things that he could of avoided. How the hell are there so many people who get rich overnight seem to forget even the basics of common sense?

I'm not worried about him getting his coins back but now we have to wonder what the US Government is going to use those coins for, and you know it's going to be soon.

[BTCisthefuture]

Don't want the fbi having coins, don't do illegal things that can get your assests seized 

Even if the FBI were to dump all the coins at once creating a quick crash  (I highly doubt they will do that)  that still wouldn't be enough reason for me to want to take their coins away.

[je1p7u7]

They are [...] likely planning to dump onto the market to cause a flash crash

1) You really have some insider information on FBI plans, don't you? (sarcasm)
2) We should seize bitcoins of every large wallet, because they are planning on dumping btc (sarcasm)

While I might or might not like what happened to DPR and might or might not like the FBI I think you are crazy if you think that people will keep believing in bitcoins if such decisions and actions are made by "the community".

Another issue is that "the majority" (as I understand it, a synonym for "the community") is not the best source for decision-making. Statistically speaking the majority tends to be average and while they may make good short term decisions, I don't think they will make good long-term decisions. I am not at the same time advising "a bitcoin goverment", but just ruling against making any decisions such as confiscating bitcoins by anyone.

The truth is not always as others present it or even as facts present it. Related movie: 12 Angry Men

[Interized]

Allowing FBI to have any more control than they already do is bad.

It is similar to owning too much of a network, and a good example is 51%+ threats to Bitcoin.

This doesn't just mean Bitcoin networks, all networks in general.

FBI has enough power, they should not be allowed to gain more resources/power with these seized Bitcoins.

I will be using a Bitcoin tracking device to make sure I never get Bitcoins that the FBI once had and I will be able to track every company/person that accepted them.

This is very easy and possible to do.

We as a community can reject these coins all on our own.

[je1p7u7]

We as a community can reject these coins all on our own.

That's quite a good idea and it is your privilege to accept/deny anyone's coins. Good luck with doing that after coin mixing transactions. I also hope an organization that you support doesn't get it's coins "banned" in such a way.

As long as you don't mess with the network I don't care what anyone does on an individual basis, so I'm ok with your concept, but not necessarily support it.

[Interized]

We as a community can reject these coins all on our own.

That's quite a good idea and it is your privilege to accept/deny anyone's coins. Good luck with doing that after coin mixing transactions. I also hope an organization that you support doesn't get it's coins "banned" in such a way.

As long as you don't mess with the network I don't care what anyone does on an individual basis, so I'm ok with your concept, but not necessarily support it.

I hope you do realize coin mixing won't stop reverse tractability at all.

We already know the BTC address with the coins, and we can see where they go after that etc.

No amount of coin changing will stop tractability.

[elrugrim]

Honestly, if the feds dump the coins back into the market, that is a good thing.  Proof positive that the US government is treating Bitcoins as an asset with an actual value, as opposed to imaginary internet games.

[samjtemp]

An easier way to "wash coins" is by exchanging bitcoin to an altcoin then back again. Especially a useless one such as Doge that won't be around long.

The tactic of screening (aka colored) to be more of a inconvenience than anything. The person wanting to trade with you will have to check their own coins and send the one's that don't fit your description - in which they will send to someone else thus not taking it out of circulation in the slightest.

It's like vaccinations. Either a whole society chooses to do it, or it don't really work.

I'm not supportive of the colored coin idea at all. It would be on the level of idiotic Government jurisdiction idea's (such as the war on drugs) that manages to cause a whole slew of problems without even slightly acknowledging the original issue in which it was created to fight.

You just don't get it.  Before you type anything on your keyboard again. Take a basic math course.

This is the type of responses I'm used to hearing when arguing with "Fiscal Conservative Christians" in Texas who, failing to provide an intelligent response to my position, tells me to "Go learn History/Economics/Whatever first" in which I almost am certainly better studied in the subject than they are,  hence why I was able to present a position that had substance while they were limited to an emotional outburst.

Honestly, if the feds dump the coins back into the market, that is a good thing.  Proof positive that the US government is treating Bitcoins as an asset with an actual value, as opposed to imaginary internet games.

I agree, it will also be a good thing when the original miners (such as Satoshi himself) finally use at least some of their coins, which will have the result of better distrubting the wealth to the masses allowing it to function much more like a currency than a commodity. But here is the difference;

Satoshi and the original miners have an invested interest (even if it where only based on greed) to do so in a constructive fashion, such as starting an ETF like TradeFortress had done.

While the Fed's (and their Masters) have every reason to bring down bitcoin, while their own financial gain by holding these coins are trivial. That is an important distinction to make. Even if the market isn't destroyed it could set us back by years. 

[lnternet]

Fungibility. Don't mess with it.

[FandangledGizmo]

If they had dumped those coins during the Chinese panic it likely would of destroyed Bitcoin forever.

And they have EVERY reason to benefit by doing so. The only thing stopping the FED's is how they can't use those wallets until the trial is over.

No the opposite would have happened.

As the coins would have come from wallets known to be in their control. Everyone would know that they were dumping the coins to Cause a price crash.  

In fact whenever they choose to sell, it will just be a bargain for anyone that has money on an exchange and I think the move would retrace in less than a day.  

[anti-scam]

The solution to this problem is a technological one that makes such a coin seizure unlikely or infeasible in the first place, not banning coins. The Bitcoin community will just have to accept the 144,000 already taken as motivation to do better.

[samjtemp]

No the opposite would have happened.

As the coins would have come from wallets known to be in their control. Everyone would know that they were dumping the coins to Cause a price crash.  

In fact whenever they choose to sell, it will just be a bargain for anyone that has money on an exchange and I think the move would retrace in less than a day.  

There are more attacks than just the 50%+1 attack. Orphaning blocks for instance. Commandeering major mining operations, a virus (like stutnex attacking nuclear facilities), DDOS (NSA has a lot of influence over the main DNS providers.), them figuring out the identity of Satoshi (What is the NSA's job again?) forcing Satoshi to give up his wallet then we'd have the DPR problem but on an even larger scale.


This would be more than "panic selling" where even the loyalist to bitcoin (such as myself) would have to logically realize that getting out of the market would be the smartest thing to do.

As it is right now Bitcoin could not survive ANY of these attacks and so we are relying on the charity of the very organizations whom want to see us go away.

That does not sound like a very good idea.

The solution to this problem is a technological one that makes such a coin seizure unlikely or infeasible in the first place, not banning coins. The Bitcoin community will just have to accept the 144,000 already taken as motivation to do better.

I'm not suggesting a "Colored Coin Solution" but to alter the block chain so the FBI's coins no longer exist. I'm not sure if this is even possible? But something to consider.

[BurtW]

See my signature.  I and others who understand the importance of fungibility will never accept the alt coins created by your fork.  Go ahead and create your fork today.  What are you going to call your new alt?  NotMoney is a good name since any alt you create that is not fungible is not money.

[BurtW]

I'm not suggesting a "Colored Coin Solution" but to alter the block chain so the FBI's coins no longer exist. I'm not sure if this is even possible? But something to consider.

You are suggesting a coin black list.  It is possible.  All you need to do is create a modified client and modified mining software that does what you want it to do:  ignore all transactions that contain any of the blacklisted coins (those coins currently contain in the two know FBI addresses),  and release it into the marketplace.  Those that believe in your idea will use your client, those of us that know it is stupid will not.  Once the coins move you will create a hard fork and your new alt blockchain will be born.  

[armodilloben]

Isn't Bitcoin that great because people cannot use if for political influence? Which would exactly be what you are proposing here?