intersango bitcoin withdraw not possible? (no fiat involved)

[MadHasher]

"So I answered your 'confusion' but may I know why do you think Patrick's asset is not going to be hurt?"

I am thinking about the bankruptcy route for recovery of assets. On other threads the intention to pursue
all three founders of the company is discussed, and they may be successful. I have not seen any references
to case numbers, and until I see these, it is difficult to find out how far that has progressed.

So, back to the civil action route - IANAL BTW.

If these guys had any business sense, they should have gone public as soon as they knew the company was
insolvent, perhaps in June 2013 when the accounts were due. (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here)

At that time they might have avoided bankruptcy by offering the depositors say 40 cents on the dollar. Do not
take that literally! Now there may be nothing for us after due bills are paid, and the lawyers and accountants
get paid. The reason I say this is that they seem to be willing to let Intersango get delisted and have the assets
seized by the crown. The intersango business seems to be hosted in southern England, their bank account is in
Poland, and the people are in Spain, the USA, and Europe. I doubt there is anything worth seizing in the UK.

Intersango is a limited liability company. That means that not only are the personal assets of the directors
protected under law, but that they can use the assets of Intersango to pay for any legal action. Patrick may have
been Chairman, but he seems to have no right in law to direct the actions of the company (as would be the case
for a Director ie Amir).

The company has to file for bankruptcy as far as I can tell, and I have no knowledge of whether the company owes
a bank any money, or has any other financial obligations, so it is difficult to know how this would play out. I'm hoping
that the Intersango three still keeps an eye on these boards, because getting them to respond probably offers the
best hope of any recovery.   

AFAIK, they can claim insolvency but customer funds must be made available. If customer funds aren't made available, they are liable to go to jail for embezzlement. I don't think being an LLC has any matter regarding deposits and whatnot.

[zhangweiwu]

\
I am thinking about the bankruptcy route for recovery of assets. On other threads the intention to pursue
all three founders of the company is discussed, and they may be successful. I have not seen any references
to case numbers, and until I see these, it is difficult to find out how far that has progressed.

I have been transparent about my progress. I had hoped others reveal their progress too, and assumed the silence as there be no real progress (reasonable). Talking about transparency and cooperation, in fact, I find it is difficult to get trusted to report case for other customers altogether. My first attempt was to file it in Poland (physically, not online): 5 people are contacted and I failed to get any one on my boat in time. So this time when I file it in London (ActionFraud) I instead decided that it is better for everybody to file for themselves.

Did you file a case in ActionFraud mentioned above? I think filing it on everyone's own  filing on the same website has the additional benifit of calling attention, since they implied they have a big pool of reports and they can only procees a few of the fraud report (hustlers should be happy to read this information: the police are busy working on something else).

I have not yet given up on legal action. I am afraid I am not the best person to start: as I explained before, I never lived in the first world, there are too many things totally new to me, and I am rather far away (China). But I am ready to jump on other's boat: I would like to share cost with others if someone can start the process, find an agent to talk about the issue, figure out to do list and proceed on actions.

I am not a law man. It is of my common sense that law has more means to do justice than taking away 2 pounds to the crown.

[yzbob]

I had £400 left in my account with them and i think i still had 1.6 coins as well. Wondering how to proceed next.

[elvizzzzzzz]

If I have learned one thing, it is that the Law is not Justice, and Justice is not the Law.

"If customer funds aren't made available, they are liable to go to jail for embezzlement."

I will read up on that. Until now I'd assumed that only bitcoin was at risk here. 

I *think* that in the UK, if less than £500 is involved, there is a cheaper route through the
courts to recover money - IIRC for over £500 you need to go via the High Court. If nothing else,
it may stop the assets being seized by the crown. Something else to read up on.

[zhangweiwu]

I had £400 left in my account with them and i think i still had 1.6 coins as well. Wondering how to proceed next.

1. You can file it to London police like me and some others did. I believe repeated filing calls attention.
The procedure is here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=414764.msg5539367#msg5539367

When asked about the lose in Pound Sterling, scine 100% of my lose are asset (not cash), I filled in my total lose converted to Pound Sterling in market price.

The police has obligation to protect people's asset, be it cash or other valuable asset that has a price tag on it (bitcoin). I watched the latest youtube video of the deceased Autumn Redtke, a U.S. entrepreneur, who says virtual goods, including armor and weapons you obtained in computer games, are lawfully recognized as such asset - perhaps in U.S.. So bitcoin is 10 times more valid and more liquid than that. We are doing nothing illegal and we lost asset to other illegal practise, the common sense is that police has no reason to turn us down.

2. Consult a laywer (especially U.K. laywer or a country with a law system inherited from U.K.) or anyone knowledgeable about possible next-actions (and share with others here).

3. Visit other governmental websites, obtain the how-to knowlege of how this cases are commonly dealt. e.g House of Company and publish your learning.

4. Not accepting the lose and moan over it unless you learned how the system works. Be pro-active.

5. If we have to accept the lose, make sure the relative names are properly tainted in public so that less people fall  again. e.g. if an adult  is a fraud, addressing him so is not slandering but a social service.

That's my understanding.

[elvizzzzzzz]

Just an update on recovery of debt via the UK small claims court.
The sum involved has to be under £3000. You also have to have proof that
a) you have a contract with them for the amount you claim and b) that you
have written to them (Intersango) asking for your money back. 

[BitOnyx]

Any way after such a long time it probably wont work any more

[fransbauer]

I am Dutch and lived in the UK for some years. After that used to visit the UK regularly up until recently, but no plans now for the foreseeable future. I do however have contacts in London that may be able to file a case and I should be able to travel to London at a relatively low cost if needed.

Annoying thing now is that I had to cancel my withdrawal request because in any case I do not want any BTC to go to mtgox anymore. I can prove, however, that I requested a withdrawal and asked for support twice over the course of two months, and of course my emailing Patrick. I have now again put in a request for the full amount of BTC owed to me by intersango, but to an offline/cold storage wallet. Something I should have created a long time ago.

If we really want to file a case we will have to look into what we stand to gain and where we stand legally under UK law, where the company originates. One of the worries I had, and possibly share with other people, is that BTC is not legal tender and hence we might not get coins, but only original fiat investments. On the other hand, if we buy shares through a bank or company, then those aren't legal tender either. It seems only logical that if we had bought some shares in e.g. Tesla motors a few years back and they were owed to me by a company who can not provide those original shares, that I would get recompensed for the current value of those shares, even though those shares have doubled in value many times over since then. I will confirm with my lawyer friend how this works under Dutch law and I am quite sure in the UK it should be the same, or at least similar.

Me, being Dutch also, living in the States, had many coins in Intersango. Let me know what you think about some action.
Thinking file a case in the UK is the only option.
Amir blames Patrick.

jc

[premuda]

Hello

I'm also not able to withdraw bitcoins and are planning a small claims action against them.

Has anyone filed one yet?

Apart from filing police fraud case, did you file a companies house fraud report? We need to make sure they don't file for insolvency and I believe they will investigate their reports, returns etc. So once they go under the magnifying glass, they will find any abnormalities.

Link to companies house fraud page:
http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/infoAndGuide/reportingFraud.shtml

https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-a-limited-company

http://www.bis.gov.uk/insolvency/Companies/investigations-hotline

What do you guys think?

I think we all must complain as numbers usually prompt action.  This is fraud whichever way you look and I'll be happy with a prison sentence if i can't reclaim my money.  They haven't filed for insolvency have they? So where is the money

[zhangweiwu]

What do you guys think?

I think we all must complain as numbers usually prompt action.  This is fraud whichever way you look and I'll be happy with a prison sentence if i can't reclaim my money.  They haven't filed for insolvency have they? So where is the money

I will join your case when you start one. I will offer all necessary information and offer transaction details to you, and my personal identity if needed - to add credibility to the complaint, provide that I know who you are as well. I hope other forum member does the same. Just state what you need me / others to do.

If they file for bankrupcy, we need a way to know it before it goes effective, to buy some time for action. Is such thing usually announced on some governmental website? We should monitor that site.

But the best option is to act now. There are no more reason to wait for myrical. I am speculating that Amir and Patrick are now too disconnected with reality to act, and they lack the nerves of steel Mark Karpeles possesses, but share the same hubris, not caring mundane reputation - so they chose not to act so far - thus we should.

[premuda]

Everyone can phone companies house or insolvency service to enquire about the status.

http://www.bis.gov.uk/insolvency/Companies/investigations-hotline

I noticed the site has a message they are processing payments in orderly fashion. Even though this is a positive sign we should atleast phone and ask about status of the company. If its due to be removed and dissolved the we need to halt until all payments are complete.

They should really send out an all status email informing everyone what is happening. That would avoid all this if they are really genuine.

[premuda]

Has anyone received a payment yet?

[zhangweiwu]

Has anyone received a payment yet?

I did not. My request was made 19th Jan 2014. I don't think anyone received.

[bitcoinsolicitor]

There is a 'Proposal to Strike off' the company at Companies House.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo

If you are owed funds or have a claim against the company you should consider to object the dissolution.

http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp4.shtml#ch1

[zhangweiwu]

There is a 'Proposal to Strike off' the company at Companies House.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo

Thank you very much for the information. Would you kindly share the steps you take to get this webpage? This web page is unprofessionally made, and cann't reproduce the content with just a link.

[premuda]

Someone needs to fill in the form and pay for small fee.

Could anyone do this asap and call them as well. If you dont do this now then court order is the only way to re-register the company.

I'm about to trek Himalaya, otherwise I really would.  You guys have to activate yourself before its to late. 

Zhang, if you are in China I understand the difficulty but can you open a Facebook group and add instructions we gathered over time? Then all the customers who lost
Money can collectively work. There could be hundreds but they don't know where to look.

[bitcoinsolicitor]

Someone needs to fill in the form and pay for small fee.

Could anyone do this asap and call them as well. If you dont do this now then court order is the only way to re-register the company.

I'm about to trek Himalaya, otherwise I really would.  You guys have to activate yourself before its to late. 

Zhang, if you are in China I understand the difficulty but can you open a Facebook group and add instructions we gathered over time? Then all the customers who lost
Money can collectively work. There could be hundreds but they don't know where to look.

My firm can do this for any of our clients with losses (for a small fee).

[premuda]

Thanks for your advice so far.  What is the name of your firm and your name. Are you offering to represent us?

[bitcoinsolicitor]

Thanks for your advice so far.  What is the name of your firm and your name. Are you offering to represent us?

Hi,

My details are in my profile.

You may email me at info(at)selachii.co.uk

I can then take details on an individual / per client basis.


Regards


Richard

[zhangweiwu]

Zhang, if you are in China I understand the difficulty but can you open a Facebook group and add instructions we gathered over time? Then all the customers who lost
Money can collectively work. There could be hundreds but they don't know where to look.

I will try, but you know facebook is blocked by Chinese government, right? I can use a proxy, but my facebook account was almost empty, setting a group means every foreigner who look at my background on facebook sees only one thing: that I am after the money I lost - not a very good publicity for a career seeker, right? It implies carelessness and narrow focus.

Maybe if I really do it well I can avoid negative impression for business-partner or employer or my customer who does me background checks. For example, balancing it by writing how to modify violin to its mirror (for left-hand use), to counter the careless and cursory impression I should otherwise get.