The Wasp Project Collective Information thread.

[btmtb]

Thanks for the insightful updates Bicknellski, one of the most interesting parts of the project so far for me is the EE insight (not to undersell the ground breaking concept that may level the playing field for hardware dev).

[Bicknellski]

I am no EE. I am just trying to clarify in my own mind what has been happening with the A1 chip as it pertains to our designs. After months of meetings there is one thing that has always been a point of consciousness in a Wasp design for the A1, and will be there as well for the future chips,  is to keep careful control over the copper traces and the distances between the power going through the trace to the chip to keep impedance in check as much as we can. I can see that Bitmine and others have struggled a lot with this and that is certainly going to be an issue for any 28nm chip and we are going to have to do some tweaking obviously as everyone else has had to do with the PCB. There is a lot of power going through some pretty tiny traces. We are looking at the limits of the technology for the PCB and laying out copper because the pads on the A1 chip are particularly fine and we even caught an issue with that prior to the chips being made and reported that to Bitmine. We are particularly concerned that we are contacting military / avionics PCB makers to see what we can learn about the limits of our own design and may build a few boards for our prototypes that are little "overspec" to see if that may help. Maybe something coming out of those meetings might deliver a Wasp that can overcome some of the current limits imposed by the size of the traces.

[Bicknellski]

TLDR Meeting Notes:

1. Provisioning server will be ready when Wasp & Hive has working units to license.

2. Wasp prototypes designs being reviewed at fabricator and we will be shipping boards out to FW/SW team as soon as they leave the fabricator.

3. EE will be electrical testing a bring up board as soon as Monday or Tuesday. Full on prototype boards are likely ready after confirmation of these tests.

4. Hive is ready for prototype run and pricing for limited production has been determined. Production of the beta Hive will happen next week.

5. SW / FW will need the new boards to continue testing but significant progress has been made on our emulators.

6. Website, Memberships, Licensing Fees, Share Exchange to use Open Cart and integrated into the website for consumers and WPC members.

7. WPC Pool will be ready for a soft opening on Monday skinning will be continue and revisions to be added later.

8. Licensing Fees will be finalized in a meeting on Tuesday or Wednesday.

9. We will have a PR/Marketing and Administrative meeting on Friday March 7th. As more media is produced more information will be released via our website and this thread.

10. We will continue working on the 90% completed BitFury Wasp while the A1 Wasp will get 99% of our effort. BitFury Wasps should follow soon on the heels of the A1.

11. Cooling solutions need to be PCB and Firmware related first to lower these potential problems in the packaged limitations of the A1 chips and then we will find a real cooling solution that would help our Wasps maintain a constant temperature profile so that cycling is greatly reduced thus increasing the lifespan of the Miners.

[Lucko]

Note this image taken from the Wasp 2 x A1 gerbers bring up board that will be used for SW/FW development.

This might be a shot in the dark but I don't think this is a metal core design... Or is it? Or did you change that. As far as I know you talked about metal core in meetings...

[Bicknellski]

I think that is correct as we are looking at metal core or even metal slugs with the chip solder direct on it acting as a direct heat sink getting rid of the vias entirely. We will have more on this as we get more info from the avionics fabricators. The bring up boards being made today in Seattle are bog standard pcb just a proof that the electrical is sound.

[Lucko]

OK so this is just a test board and it is not metal core...

[Bicknellski]

OK so this is just a test board and it is not metal core...

The first few will be non-metal just to make sure we have everything working properly before we do our own lot of A1 chips into miners for the WPC and the fact the EE is building these by hand at a local fab that doesn't really have latest state of the art machines etc that the final production boards will have. This is a time saver as well to get us up and working on the Wasp initially. We have all our parts in hand in fact we have had them in hand since December if I am not mistaken.

The next respin of the Wasp will have metal core or at least some sort of solution so that we are not crying weeks or months later when we push a few of these Wasps with different cooling options trying to get the most out the chip and the A1's fail, that won't be something we want to be repairing. We will obviously give detailed information what we have put together in our gerbers and bom for everyone. We have priced out metal core boards and that I think added about $3 to $5 more per board. So if that translates into higher hash rates for longer then we think that is reasonable cost as we do not want to do be doing RMA work for chip failures.

These A1 Wasps are really going to be the test bed for our future Wasps using say the Minion or other chips. The package employed by the Minion seems to be more of a standard package to get heat out of the chips and less prone to temperature fluctuations issues that could happen with the A1's. So if we can get the A1 to work optimally with a longer lifespan the we suspect that future chips on Wasps will behave very well. Before we get to the Minion we will be working on the BitFury Wasp as well which is 90% to 95% completed in design.

More news coming this week and I will post as soon as I hear more out of Seattle. I am hopeful some flashing lights and a short video of the Wasp will be ready as well. And any PCB EE's out there keen on working with our team feel free to contact me directly as we are still looking for more engineers in hardware, software and firmware to join the WPC.

[btmtb]

... We have priced out metal core boards and that I think added about $3 to $5 more per board. So if that translates into higher hash rates for longer then we think that is reasonable cost as we do not want to do be doing RMA work for chip failures...

From a consumer point of view I would bet that additional cost would be insignificant, even when marked up, when you consider the cost of the devices and even the cost of carriage is likely to be substantially more than that upgrade.

It would be interesting, once the project gets a volume of hardware to market and given that you're looking at specifying a more industrial grade of product. If the ASIC fabricators would be willing to formalise a package-form to allow socketing rather than needing complete new blades. But that's quite far down the line I suppose.

At the moment, from the early concepts, I have this mental image of each blade being like a Pentium II/III processors (if you remember those), where it stands off from the motherboard and is pretty much a heatsink cartridge around a small board with chip mounted. Might be worth seeing how they handled these concerns? I know you've probably already considered this because you've said previously that you want the wasps/blades will be able to run independent of the hive, and having the chips as plugins themselves would take more of the control work off the blade and back to the hive which would mean they don't run independently.

I know everyone has an opinion and not everyone is an EE, so take these suggestions with a pinch of salt, I'm just finding the discussion very informative and the project fascinating.

[Bicknellski]

... We have priced out metal core boards and that I think added about $3 to $5 more per board. So if that translates into higher hash rates for longer then we think that is reasonable cost as we do not want to do be doing RMA work for chip failures...

From a consumer point of view I would bet that additional cost would be insignificant, even when marked up, when you consider the cost of the devices and even the cost of carriage is likely to be substantially more than that upgrade.

It would be interesting, once the project gets a volume of hardware to market and given that you're looking at specifying a more industrial grade of product. If the ASIC fabricators would be willing to formalise a package-form to allow socketing rather than needing complete new blades. But that's quite far down the line I suppose.

At the moment, from the early concepts, I have this mental image of each blade being like a Pentium II/III processors (if you remember those), where it stands off from the motherboard and is pretty much a heatsink cartridge around a small board with chip mounted. Might be worth seeing how they handled these concerns? I know you've probably already considered this because you've said previously that you want the wasps/blades will be able to run independent of the hive, and having the chips as plugins themselves would take more of the control work off the blade and back to the hive which would mean they don't run independently.

I know everyone has an opinion and not everyone is an EE, so take these suggestions with a pinch of salt, I'm just finding the discussion very informative and the project fascinating.

For us in terms of re-doing the wheel each new chip that comes down the pipe we are fine with that variation given our design concept we don't need a lot of component changes just a reworking of the space around the footprint of the chip. We know that ASIC fabricators won't get on board with a single socket design that be too easy right? And the design is collective effort and has had back and forth on a lot of these issues to finally arrive at the current design. We are always open to ideas though that could benefit the project overall. One of the EE's was involved in the very first Intel chip designs so yes I am sure he is familiar with all of those sort of solutions.

In terms of the Hive it is really only there to push the power to the Wasp and provide consolidated data transfer it is a very basic modular set up. In terms of loading more on the Hive that is possible but we will have to see how this all shakes out after the first runs. We benefit from having a modular Hive in that cooling could be modular as well. Be it a unit inclusive of the Hive or individualized cooling for each Wasp. Personally I am partial to a http://www.iceotope.com/ configuration.



But considering the cost involved a immersion bath system like the guys at Asicminer in HK could be a better solution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZavKweMrP4 from Allied Control.

Then again maybe the Minion and the BitFury Wasps could "overclock" in air if you have the right fan heatsink PCB combo. Who knows... but there are quite a few of us in the WPC that are itching to get our hands on some of the Wasps to see what "aftermarket" cooling we can do to them.

A newer version of the module Hive will be out when the Wasps are ready. We are also really keen to work with fabricators on casing / cooling so maybe someone really wants to work on that in tandem with us.

[Lucko]

Is there some data so we can start looking for quotes. Like material, layers, minimal trace, thickness of the copper and so on...

Today I was talking with my PCB place and I have a question. How many layers is there. 1? I was told that metal core board can't be made in more then 1 layers and that there are only 2 or 3 companys in the world that can do 2 layers... Is that the case or there was something lost in translation...

[darkfriend77]

Is there some data so we can start looking for quotes. Like material, layers, minimal trace, thickness of the copper and so on...

Today I was talking with my PCB place and I have a question. How many layers is there. 1? I was told that metal core board can't be made in more then 1 layers and that there are only 2 or 3 companys in the world that can do 2 layers... Is that the case or there was something lost in translation...

Maybe you could join a saturday voice meeting from our EE's, you would have time to place your questions to them directly, also we should have some "real stuff" in hands by then.

[Bicknellski]

Lucko please contact Beastly Mac he can get you in the meeting this Saturday unless you still have the teamspeak details from the last time. Just show up but give BeastlyMac or me a PM to let us know you are coming.

In terms of the boards and what we will have to recommend still waiting for our own prototypes boards to be fabricated first. We will provide all the details then and where we have had them fabricated. There are definitely some limitations in where metal core and the other ideas we have can be made but we will do everything we can to provide the details you need as a fabricator to get these A1 Wasps done.

Note we have procured 64 of the revised or newer BitFury 55nm chips and will be using that as our test bed for BitFury Wasp.

Also latest the initial bring up board is being fabricated now and should be ready this week.

[Bicknellski]

Wasp is Born

The initial bring up 2 Chip Wasp A1 in hand... pick and place and re-flow ongoing.

[silver71]

Great progress guys , whats the prospects of overclocking the A1 on your existing design ?

Code:

What is Trace Impedance and Why Do We Care?
Wednesday, October 26, 2011 | Douglas Brooks, PhD.

+1

[Bicknellski]

10 Hives now in production.

10 protoype Hives should arrive early next week, the back connectors and other parts to build are on order, so some completed boards should soon be under way.

- EE

[Bicknellski]

- The World's Slowest Miner! -

Mining chip simulator demo. The mining chip (avr xmega) is being controlled by a avr uc3, with bfgminer running on the PC.

- FE

Published on Mar 8, 2014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj2RLa2b5jc

[Lucko]

Lucko please contact Beastly Mac he can get you in the meeting this Saturday unless you still have the teamspeak details from the last time. Just show up but give BeastlyMac or me a PM to let us know you are coming.

In terms of the boards and what we will have to recommend still waiting for our own prototypes boards to be fabricated first. We will provide all the details then and where we have had them fabricated. There are definitely some limitations in where metal core and the other ideas we have can be made but we will do everything we can to provide the details you need as a fabricator to get these A1 Wasps done.

Note we have procured 64 of the revised or newer BitFury 55nm chips and will be using that as our test bed for BitFury Wasp.

Also latest the initial bring up board is being fabricated now and should be ready this week.

Thanks but I'm still having problems hire so internet is not 100%. I do have teamspeak details from last time but could not join over the weekend. Do you have one this weekend? I hope I will be able to join at that time.

[Beastlymac]

Lucko please contact Beastly Mac he can get you in the meeting this Saturday unless you still have the teamspeak details from the last time. Just show up but give BeastlyMac or me a PM to let us know you are coming.

In terms of the boards and what we will have to recommend still waiting for our own prototypes boards to be fabricated first. We will provide all the details then and where we have had them fabricated. There are definitely some limitations in where metal core and the other ideas we have can be made but we will do everything we can to provide the details you need as a fabricator to get these A1 Wasps done.

Note we have procured 64 of the revised or newer BitFury 55nm chips and will be using that as our test bed for BitFury Wasp.

Also latest the initial bring up board is being fabricated now and should be ready this week.

Thanks but I'm still having problems hire so internet is not 100%. I do have teamspeak details from last time but could not join over the weekend. Do you have one this weekend? I hope I will be able to join at that time.

Yes we should have another one at the same time this weekend. The details are the same if you can't connect please contact me and i will try and solve the issues.

[Bicknellski]

Lucko I did discuss with EE team about the board itself and it might be possible, should testing prove it out, that a standard board could be used, although overclocking an A1 Wasp might be less likely or desirable. Testing on this will take place once we have a fully populated board by this week hopefully. See you at the meeting Saturday.

[Lucko]

Like the agenda

I have another idea that might be interesting for you. What about having Wasp ASIC store? Since in most cases you need to buy a lot of ASIC to get them or get close to good price. I'm ready to run it with minimal mangers for EU or whole world if that would need to be the case... Something we can also talk about if this is something you think your collective needs.