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Author Topic: Renting hashes  (Read 1574 times)
Narydu
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September 16, 2011, 11:07:42 AM
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Is there any mining pool that allows to rent ghashes from miners? This is the model I believe there should be... it would be a sort of investment model were one should be able to rent on a mining pool an x amount of hashes at a lower instant payment than the expected mined btc espected to be mined in such a period for such amount of hashes... benefits, one invest btc in exchange of a potential benefit of lets say, 10% in a certail period, on the other side the owner of the rigs gets inmediate btc for it's rent lowering his risk of getting or not lucky according the expected btc founds, and the pool gets a % over the transaction. Here should be a sort of uptime status and trust for the rented hashes. This might get more people into mining, who then might be willing to create their own rigs.

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Meni Rosenfeld
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September 16, 2011, 11:48:06 AM
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That's something I've been thinking about for a while. I've hinted at my ideas here and am going to post a more organized presentation of them.

There are a lot of different possibilities in that spectrum. What I'm thinking of is that the pool will be based on something like exponential PPLNS where the "score" is expected pending reward, subject to variance and maturity time, and this score will become a tradeable commodity where risk-loving investors buy it from miners who want steady payouts. Of course this should be possible not only as one-time trades but as longer-term "renting".

Another direction to approach it is a pool which is PPS from the start but solicits investments, where stakeholders share both the block rewards and the duty to pay for shares, in proportion to their investment.

No pool does this currently, but I'll definitely at some point push this to pools I'm involved with.

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September 16, 2011, 12:46:24 PM
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I worked on a Financial Institution were they made "securities" thats how I believe they were called, on debts valued according their expectation of payment. Then those were sold in the open market. This would be a sort of it in a extremly different way.

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September 16, 2011, 12:51:30 PM
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This might get more people into mining, who then might be willing to create their own rigs.

Why do you want more people in to mining? There is already a built in market mechanism that regulates the amount of miners; more miners only means those miners will lose money as the amount of bitcoins to be made is fixed.

Btcoins doesnt need more miners, it already has a good system to regulate mining demand,  bitcoin needs more real trade to happen in bitcoins.

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September 16, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
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This might get more people into mining, who then might be willing to create their own rigs.
Why do you want more people in to mining? There is already a built in market mechanism that regulates the amount of miners; more miners only means those miners will lose money as the amount of bitcoins to be made is fixed.

Btcoins doesnt need more miners, it already has a good system to regulate mining demand,  bitcoin needs more real trade to happen in bitcoins.
Does not contradict. Of course the most important thing now is to have more trade.

But mining exists for a reason. The more miners, the more secure the network is. By making it easier to mine in a pool, we're shifting the equilibrium to a point with more hashrate for the honest network, without any advantage to attackers.

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September 18, 2011, 03:20:37 PM
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Btcoins doesnt need more miners, it already has a good system to regulate mining demand,  bitcoin needs more real trade to happen in bitcoins.

Finally somebody that gets it. If you start mining in the current conditions of low price and still damn high difficulty you are awarded the "Idiot of the year" award for 2011.

People need to buy bitcoins and use them to trade NOT mine and sell for a profit in US dollars.
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September 18, 2011, 03:38:02 PM
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Btcoins doesnt need more miners, it already has a good system to regulate mining demand,  bitcoin needs more real trade to happen in bitcoins.

Finally somebody that gets it. If you start mining in the current conditions of low price and still damn high difficulty you are awarded the "Idiot of the year" award for 2011.

People need to buy bitcoins and use them to trade NOT mine and sell for a profit in US dollars.

Agreed. Miners supply coins, and what we really need right now is more demand, which will come with more people actually using coins to buy and sell stuff. If we can't get a healthy bitcoin economy going, the whole thing is going down the toilet.
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September 18, 2011, 03:39:21 PM
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Btcoins doesnt need more miners, it already has a good system to regulate mining demand,  bitcoin needs more real trade to happen in bitcoins.
People need to buy bitcoins and use them to trade NOT mine and sell for a profit in US dollars.
They can do both. And they can discuss now how to make mining better so that they're ready for times when the price is high and/or the difficulty is low.

The only problem is when people mistakenly believe that Bitcoin is about mining.

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September 18, 2011, 03:56:56 PM
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Btcoins doesnt need more miners, it already has a good system to regulate mining demand,  bitcoin needs more real trade to happen in bitcoins.
People need to buy bitcoins and use them to trade NOT mine and sell for a profit in US dollars.
They can do both. And they can discuss now how to make mining better so that they're ready for times when the price is high and/or the difficulty is low.

The only problem is when people mistakenly believe that Bitcoin is about mining.

True. I'm actually holding my coins atm, and may end up using some/all of them to buy stuff. Also, renting hashes doesn't necessarily mean more mining. Maybe some who are already mining would opt to rent their rigs, which wouldn't result in any increase for the network. Renting at a reasonable premium is not a bad idea. All of the rental offers I've seen so far have a pretty absurd premium, and I have trouble believing that very many people actually go for that.
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September 18, 2011, 04:07:22 PM
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Btcoins doesnt need more miners, it already has a good system to regulate mining demand,  bitcoin needs more real trade to happen in bitcoins.
People need to buy bitcoins and use them to trade NOT mine and sell for a profit in US dollars.
They can do both. And they can discuss now how to make mining better so that they're ready for times when the price is high and/or the difficulty is low.

The only problem is when people mistakenly believe that Bitcoin is about mining.

True. I'm actually holding my coins atm, and may end up using some/all of them to buy stuff. Also, renting hashes doesn't necessarily mean more mining. Maybe some who are already mining would opt to rent their rigs, which wouldn't result in any increase for the network. Renting at a reasonable premium is not a bad idea. All of the rental offers I've seen so far have a pretty absurd premium, and I have trouble believing that very many people actually go for that.
Integrating the renting mechanism with a pool will allow a lower barrier of entry for both miners and investors, which should lead to a very competitive premium.

Since people differ in their loss aversity, existing hardware, electricity costs etc., there will certainly be those who don't want variance, but for whom mining at stable PPS pools is currently a marginal loss. The renting mechanism will allow them to have PPS with a lower fee giving them a marginal profit, which will cause them to start/continue mining, shifting the equilibrium to a higher network hashrate.

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Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems (thread, summary)  |   PureMining - Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
teek
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September 18, 2011, 04:10:53 PM
 #11

Is there any mining pool that allows to rent ghashes from miners? This is the model I believe there should be... it would be a sort of investment model were one should be able to rent on a mining pool an x amount of hashes at a lower instant payment than the expected mined btc espected to be mined in such a period for such amount of hashes... benefits, one invest btc in exchange of a potential benefit of lets say, 10% in a certail period, on the other side the owner of the rigs gets inmediate btc for it's rent lowering his risk of getting or not lucky according the expected btc founds, and the pool gets a % over the transaction. Here should be a sort of uptime status and trust for the rented hashes. This might get more people into mining, who then might be willing to create their own rigs.


My mining company BMMO listed on the GLBSE (Global Bitcoin Stock Exchange) offers something similar to what you are looking for.  www.blockminers.com

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September 18, 2011, 04:15:13 PM
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People need to buy bitcoins and use them to trade NOT mine and sell for a profit in US dollars.

So why should I spend USD to buy bitcoins, then turn around and use the bitcoins to buy a product when it would be cheaper (and easier) to simply buy the product with USD.

Name ONE product or service that can only be acquired with bitcoins.

Rather than telling people how they should acquire and use bitcoins, why don't you stop mining/selling/whining and actually contribute something to the economy.

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September 18, 2011, 04:28:40 PM
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People need to buy bitcoins and use them to trade NOT mine and sell for a profit in US dollars.

So why should I spend USD to buy bitcoins, then turn around and use the bitcoins to buy a product when it would be cheaper (and easier) to simply buy the product with USD.

Name ONE product or service that can only be acquired with bitcoins.

Rather than telling people how they should acquire and use bitcoins, why don't you stop mining/selling/whining and actually contribute something to the economy.


I can't give you any single product you can't buy with dollars that you can with bitcoins, however bitcoins do have advantages over traditional currency, they can be as anonomous as you want them to be no one ever has to know anything beyond 3btc was sent from 17xe7... to 17tnj... for something like this " https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41811.0 "(there are other "adult" listings throughout the market but i'm only going to plug my own) In addition to that being nation free means i can send goods from here to austraila without having to convert AUD to USD and waiting for things to clear i could send 5k usd international if i wanted to at a very low cost in less than an hour in most cases. Xenland currently has a "cheaper in bitcoins" site to encourage their usage in direct trade as opposed to being cashed out for a usd equilvelent and then being spent

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September 18, 2011, 04:41:57 PM
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Bitcoins aren't anonymous. Off the top of my head:

If you purchase coins from any trade house, your payment information is linked to the btc address they were sent to.
If you mine using a pool, your IP address can be linked to the btc address the coins were delivered to you.
Making a partial payment from any 'tainted' btc address taints all associated btc addresses.
If you purchase an item using part of the coins attached to any btc address and have it delivered to you, all coins in that btc address can be linked to you. This includes purchases of illegal materials. The easiest way for someone to get their charges reduced is by ratting out as many other people as possible.

The only way to maintain a semblance of anonymity is to mine a block to a clean wallet, and then use that wallet only for activities that you want to remain anonymous.

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September 18, 2011, 04:56:27 PM
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Bitcoins aren't anonymous. Off the top of my head:

If you purchase coins from any trade house, your payment information is linked to the btc address they were sent to.
If you mine using a pool, your IP address can be linked to the btc address the coins were delivered to you.
Making a partial payment from any 'tainted' btc address taints all associated btc addresses.
If you purchase an item using part of the coins attached to any btc address and have it delivered to you, all coins in that btc address can be linked to you. This includes purchases of illegal materials. The easiest way for someone to get their charges reduced is by ratting out as many other people as possible.

The only way to maintain a semblance of anonymity is to mine a block to a clean wallet, and then use that wallet only for activities that you want to remain anonymous.


here's an address 18ReRQYsrgkpL1KdeuZ7pvQ2BoGuKimWLx please tell me what goods were transfered for the coins sent to it from where and to where, you have 1 week, go

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September 18, 2011, 06:27:37 PM
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here's an address 18ReRQYsrgkpL1KdeuZ7pvQ2BoGuKimWLx please tell me what goods were transfered for the coins sent to it from where and to where, you have 1 week, go

He (or me) could only do that If we had been logging our traffic. Now its too late, I cant match that with an IP anymore. That doesnt mean you are anonymos. Give me a time in UTC before you do a purchase, with 24 hr advance warning so I can start logging,   and lets see if its as anonymous as you think.

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September 18, 2011, 06:31:45 PM
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now that's an interesting point now you're saying i have to be logged ahead of time? If that's one of the conditions of breaking the anonymity of bitcoin then wouldn't any currency have the same issue? if i put cameras around someones house i can see them hand someone a dollar bill, I'd say if you have to be monitoring it ahead of time that puts it leagues ahead of a credit card

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September 18, 2011, 07:02:23 PM
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here's an address 18ReRQYsrgkpL1KdeuZ7pvQ2BoGuKimWLx please tell me what goods were transfered for the coins sent to it from where and to where, you have 1 week, go

And you leak yet more information. The board operator can now link that BTC address to your IP address.

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September 18, 2011, 07:05:13 PM
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Hey there are several threads about anonimity, lets keep that issue over there. Going back to the original post... btc needs more miners in the same wy it needs a higher value for each coin.  The more the miners, the more stable, unbreakable, and unforgeable is the network. But more miners means less coins per share that can only be supported for a higher priced coin, so yes we need more usd x coin but also more miners. Both come along hand by hand, becouse better prices temps more coiners too. But this thread is mainly about rentinghashes as an investmentfor the one who rents, expecting a certain profit and for the one who gives the hashes as way of assuring and anticipating profits as for example buy more rigs asap instead of waiting payouts.

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September 18, 2011, 09:28:39 PM
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now that's an interesting point now you're saying i have to be logged ahead of time?

For me, yes. since I dont log all my traffic.  Some do. All it takes is one single bitcoin user logging his firewall, there might even be a website where I can find it. An ISP also does, and the police can ask those logs (and if the police wants to crack down some illegal gambling/drugs whatever site, you bet they will).

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if i put cameras around someones house i can see them hand someone a dollar bill, I'd say if you have to be monitoring it ahead of time that puts it leagues ahead of a credit card

The camera's are already there. Moreover, they record everything and then the streams are broadcast on the internet. Its just that I personally have not been watching or recording them while you did your purchase. That doesnt make it anonymous.

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