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Author Topic: [ANN][AUTO-SWITCH] Profit-switch auto-exchange pool: CleverMining.com  (Read 554337 times)
XliptTit
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February 07, 2014, 04:35:16 PM
 #221

I noticed while watching the mining some of the rejects are duplicate shares. What does this mean?

THIS,

Some rejects are in the form of : " tralalalala stratum disconnect tralalala" tralala is something I dont remember, I am not at home so if someone could  clarify for Terk it would be great.

Generally my reject from other pool are of  " job not found" , not sure if this matter but I think is worth to look upon

I am goingo to try --queue setup. I noticed tha sometimes Cgwatcher report something like 98% accepted shares and 5% rejected, what does that means? Can a share be both accepted an rejected?
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Terk (OP)
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February 07, 2014, 05:19:39 PM
 #222

I noticed while watching the mining some of the rejects are duplicate shares. What does this mean?

THIS,

Some rejects are in the form of : " tralalalala stratum disconnect tralalala" tralala is something I dont remember, I am not at home so if someone could  clarify for Terk it would be great.

Generally my reject from other pool are of  " job not found" , not sure if this matter but I think is worth to look upon

I am goingo to try --queue setup. I noticed tha sometimes Cgwatcher report something like 98% accepted shares and 5% rejected, what does that means? Can a share be both accepted an rejected?

I'll look into duplicate shares issue. My best guess at the moment is this happens when we switch from coin A to coin B and then back to coin A and there is no new work to solve for coin A. Miner is then send the same work as before and sends the same solution. I believe this is a very minor issue as number of such shares is very tiny in the database. But I'll experiment with lowering merkle update time to make it better.

Job not found is the most common rejection reason. It means that there was a new network block and the pool sent a new work to solve more or less at the same time when the miner sent a share for previous block (which was already solved). When the share was received by the pool it was no longer valid and therefore the message is “job not found” - all old jobs are deleted from pool memory when a new block is found.

Share cannot be both accepted and rejected. There must be something wrong with your cgminer stats.

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February 07, 2014, 05:48:15 PM
 #223

Rejected rate is going down now, had 7% yesterday, have 4% today.
XliptTit
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February 07, 2014, 06:29:43 PM
 #224

Terk the other reject error i get, which is new to me, is : " rejected untracked stratum share from pool 0"

Wink
job not fund rejected shares are fine, I dont know if there is anything0 you can do to improve , but I hope there are ways to minimize the others rejects

Keep up the good work. I am finding no correlation on changin expiry , scan time and queue with lower rejecte rates. I am leaving the way they are as of now though.

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February 07, 2014, 07:01:10 PM
 #225

Nice Pool! Smiley
I joined!
+5.5Mh/s
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February 07, 2014, 07:04:54 PM
 #226

Rejects from out of europe building up, 3 hours mining 70 rejects
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February 07, 2014, 07:05:29 PM
 #227

Looks awesome. Imma start mining there with my 750kh/s rig. LOVE the bitcoin payout because Bitcoin is stable and worth something.

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February 07, 2014, 07:16:06 PM
 #228

I noticed while watching the mining some of the rejects are duplicate shares. What does this mean?

THIS,

Some rejects are in the form of : " tralalalala stratum disconnect tralalala" tralala is something I dont remember, I am not at home so if someone could  clarify for Terk it would be great.

Generally my reject from other pool are of  " job not found" , not sure if this matter but I think is worth to look upon

I am goingo to try --queue setup. I noticed tha sometimes Cgwatcher report something like 98% accepted shares and 5% rejected, what does that means? Can a share be both accepted an rejected?

I'll look into duplicate shares issue. My best guess at the moment is this happens when we switch from coin A to coin B and then back to coin A and there is no new work to solve for coin A. Miner is then send the same work as before and sends the same solution. I believe this is a very minor issue as number of such shares is very tiny in the database. But I'll experiment with lowering merkle update time to make it better.

Job not found is the most common rejection reason. It means that there was a new network block and the pool sent a new work to solve more or less at the same time when the miner sent a share for previous block (which was already solved). When the share was received by the pool it was no longer valid and therefore the message is “job not found” - all old jobs are deleted from pool memory when a new block is found.

Share cannot be both accepted and rejected. There must be something wrong with your cgminer stats.

I am getting other rejects "share is above target" never seen this one before as well as the duplicate shares
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February 07, 2014, 07:32:47 PM
 #229

looks like a great pool. i will try this. it is better if we could see the coin we are currently mining. Smiley
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February 07, 2014, 07:38:59 PM
Last edit: February 07, 2014, 08:45:47 PM by comeonalready
 #230

Terk,

Whether you're aware of it or not, you show all the indicators of being someone who wishes to prey upon the innocence of your partners -- the very people who provide the mining hardware and electricity to create the hashpower upon which you take your cut.  They are making a significant investment too;  they are entitled to information which helps them to make good decisions as well.  Your marketing skills and salesmanship are right up there with the very best of them, but unfortunately though, your unwillingness to provide any specifics about your fee schedule is major cause for concern, and the pool ends up looking very shady as a result.

Of course I believe that you should be able to fully cover your expenses (some of which are not yet even known), and also fairly compensated for your time and effort, including bonuses for exceptional results.  Operating a multi-coin mining pool is most certainly not a turnkey operation, but you need to be clear about the fees you're taking if you want to earn any credibility and trust.  (And taking is exactly the right verb there -- you are taking if you do not disclose.)

I am not even so concerned about the high end of the rate either.  You can claim "as low as 1% on a bad day" if you've ever collected exactly 1% on any bad day ever in the entire history of your pool.  And what exactly is your definition of a "bad day"?  Is it one in which we earn the same as or less than litecoin?  Or something else?  On exceptionally lucky days, why should you take a much larger percentage of the proceeds if they are mostly a result of luck and not operational efficiencies?  Do you deserve more of the good luck and less of the bad luck?  How is that fair to your miners?

In consideration of the higher end range of your fees, a subject with you have completely avoided discussing, likely because you recognize how much easier it is to siphon off a much larger cut when everyone is feeling good about their earnings for the day and less motivated to look more closely than on a bad day, why don't you offer 0% fees for days in which we fall below that "bad day" standard -- such as the days on which your pool results fall below litecoin due to technical failures?  Where is your skin in the game?

As for your opacity in choosing not to discuss which coins you choose to mine... Absolutely everyone mining can determine with near absolute certainty which coin they are currently mining by reading the Network "Diff" value from the Block line on their cgminer stats, divide it by 65536 (a scrypt constant), and match the result to the list of coin difficulties on coinwarz or coinchoose (without having to run all the various wallets themselves).  THERE ARE NO SECRETS HERE!  And it's hardly difficult to imagine efficient profitability optimizing coin switching algorithms.  We simply don't want to do it ourselves, as it is more efficient to contract out to the best service provider.  That is your opportunity.  Don't squander it by being opaque and greedy.

So now one of your cats is out of the bag.  How about you be upfront about your fees now too?  No one here is saying they have to be set in stone, and you can change them as necessary going forward.  And if any particular miners don't agree with them, they can vote with their feet and go to another multi-coin pool.  (Of which there will soon be many!)  Will your pool survive against the increased competition?  Stop being clever and start being smart.
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February 07, 2014, 08:24:18 PM
 #231

Terk,

Whether you're aware of it or not, you show all the indicators of being someone who wishes to prey upon the innocence of your partners -- the very people who provide the mining hardware and electricity to create the hashpower upon which you take your cut.  They are making a significant investment too;  they are entitled to information which helps them to make good decisions as well.  Your marketing skills and salesmanship are right up there with the very best of them, but unfortunately though, your unwillingness to provide any specifics about your fee schedule is major cause for concern, and the pool ends up looking very shady as a result.

Of course I believe that you should be able to fully cover your expenses (some of which are not yet even known), and also fairly compensated for your time and effort, including bonuses for exceptional results.  Operating a multi-coin mining pool is most certainly not a turnkey operation, but you need to be clear about the fees you're taking if you want to earn any credibility and trust.  (And taking is exactly the right verb there -- you are taking if you do not disclose.)

I am not even so concerned about the high end of the rate either.  You can claim "as low as 1% on a bad day" if you've ever collected exactly 1% on any bad day ever in the entire history of your pool.  And what exactly is your definition of a "bad day"?  Is it one in which we earn the same as or less than litecoin?  Or something else?  On exceptionally lucky days, why should you take a much larger percentage if the proceeds if they are mostly a result of luck and not operational efficiencies?  Do you deserve more of the good luck and less of the bad luck?  How is that fair to your miners?

In consideration of the higher end range of your fees, a subject with you have completely avoided discussing, likely because you recognize how much easier it is to siphon off a much larger cut when everyone is feeling good about their earnings for the day and less motivated to look more closely than on a bad day, why don't you offer 0% fees for days in which we fall below that "bad day" standard -- such as the days on which your pool results fall below litecoin due to technical failures?  Where is your skin in the game?

As for your opacity in choosing not to discuss which coins you choose to mine... Absolutely everyone mining can determine with near absolute certainty which coin they are currently mining by reading the Network "Diff" value from the Block line on their cgminer stats, divide it by 65536 (a scrypt constant), and match the result to the list of coin difficulties on coinwarz or coinchoose (without having to run all the various wallets themselves).  THERE ARE NO SECRETS HERE!  And it's hardly difficult to imagine efficient profitability optimizing coin switching algorithms.  We simply don't want to do it ourselves, as it is more efficient to contract out to the best service provider.  That is your opportunity.  Don't squander it by being opaque and greedy.

So now one of your cats is out of the bag.  How about you be upfront about your fees now too?  No one here is saying they have to be set in stone, and you can change them as necessary going forward.  And if any particular miners don't agree with them, they can vote with their feet and go to another multi-coin pool.  (Of which there will soon be many!)  Will your pool survive against the increased competition?  Stop being clever and start being smart.


wow, i don't get this at all.

the guy is throwing out a pool and inviting people to participate. it couldn't be much easier to try it out, compare your results against other pools, and then decide whether it is better or worse for you to mine on his pool. there is nothing remotely opaque about your own results in your own wallet.

the way i look at the amount of investment of time in server admin, coding, design, troubleshooting, beta testing, responding to people here, etc. that @Terk has put into this, it makes me feel confident that he wants to create something that is worthwhile. As you say, there are no secrets here, and the specific "no secret" that will be plain and obvious to all is, entirely regardless of whatever fees he charges and whatever coins he mines and whatever else he might be doing that either directly or indirectly affects how the pool works, if you mine on his pool and are more profitable than you are with other pools, then it is rational for you to stay, and if less profitable, then it is rational for you to leave.

i guess i just don't see where / how in that equation it is possible for him to be ripping you off or in any way taking advantage of you. if it feels shady to you, probably a good idea not to mine there.
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February 07, 2014, 08:27:05 PM
 #232

Terk,

Whether you're aware of it or not, you show all the indicators of being someone who wishes to prey upon the innocence of your partners -- the very people who provide the mining hardware and electricity to create the hashpower upon which you take your cut.  They are making a significant investment too;  they are entitled to information which helps them to make good decisions as well.  Your marketing skills and salesmanship are right up there with the very best of them, but unfortunately though, your unwillingness to provide any specifics about your fee schedule is major cause for concern, and the pool ends up looking very shady as a result.

Of course I believe that you should be able to fully cover your expenses (some of which are not yet even known), and also fairly compensated for your time and effort, including bonuses for exceptional results.  Operating a multi-coin mining pool is most certainly not a turnkey operation, but you need to be clear about the fees you're taking if you want to earn any credibility and trust.  (And taking is exactly the right verb there -- you are taking if you do not disclose.)

I am not even so concerned about the high end of the rate either.  You can claim "as low as 1% on a bad day" if you've ever collected exactly 1% on any bad day ever in the entire history of your pool.  And what exactly is your definition of a "bad day"?  Is it one in which we earn the same as or less than litecoin?  Or something else?  On exceptionally lucky days, why should you take a much larger percentage if the proceeds if they are mostly a result of luck and not operational efficiencies?  Do you deserve more of the good luck and less of the bad luck?  How is that fair to your miners?

In consideration of the higher end range of your fees, a subject with you have completely avoided discussing, likely because you recognize how much easier it is to siphon off a much larger cut when everyone is feeling good about their earnings for the day and less motivated to look more closely than on a bad day, why don't you offer 0% fees for days in which we fall below that "bad day" standard -- such as the days on which your pool results fall below litecoin due to technical failures?  Where is your skin in the game?

As for your opacity in choosing not to discuss which coins you choose to mine... Absolutely everyone mining can determine with near absolute certainty which coin they are currently mining by reading the Network "Diff" value from the Block line on their cgminer stats, divide it by 65536 (a scrypt constant), and match the result to the list of coin difficulties on coinwarz or coinchoose (without having to run all the various wallets themselves).  THERE ARE NO SECRETS HERE!  And it's hardly difficult to imagine efficient profitability optimizing coin switching algorithms.  We simply don't want to do it ourselves, as it is more efficient to contract out to the best service provider.  That is your opportunity.  Don't squander it by being opaque and greedy.

So now one of your cats is out of the bag.  How about you be upfront about your fees now too?  No one here is saying they have to be set in stone, and you can change them as necessary going forward.  And if any particular miners don't agree with them, they can vote with their feet and go to another multi-coin pool.  (Of which there will soon be many!)  Will your pool survive against the increased competition?  Stop being clever and start being smart.


Can I say one thing to you? OK. If you don't trust him or don't like the pool, SHUT THE FUCK UP, GET THE FUCK OUT AND DON'T USE IT.
It's as simple as that. Think in his position, you retard.
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February 07, 2014, 08:29:05 PM
 #233

Its hard to judge how we are doing unless its run for a full 24 hours at least with no down time or crashes which has been happenening. I really like the website and how fast terk is getting back and being involved. Only problem is reject rate and crashes.

Still testing but my bloody internet keeps crashing as well. Can we have a real time stat of what btc the pool is doing per hour? And what our miner is to?

Stats updated more often to would help judge better
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February 07, 2014, 08:29:21 PM
 #234

Can I say one thing to you? OK. If you don't trust him or don't like the pool, SHUT THE FUCK UP, GET THE FUCK OUT AND DON'T USE IT.
It's as simple as that. Think in his position, you retard.

This is a ridiculous position.  Stop being a fan boy.  Lack of transparency in fees is ridiculous.
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February 07, 2014, 08:44:19 PM
 #235

Can I say one thing to you? OK. If you don't trust him or don't like the pool, SHUT THE FUCK UP, GET THE FUCK OUT AND DON'T USE IT.
It's as simple as that. Think in his position, you retard.

Shame this kind of conversations in this topic, relax dude
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February 07, 2014, 08:57:27 PM
 #236

comeonalready, thanks for the insight and advices. I'll refer to your points very briefly as I have still my hands very full with technical issues, but I understand your concerns and I want to reply even if it's quick and not very detailed.

Your marketing skills and salesmanship are right up there with the very best of them

I'm a software development guy, not a marketing wizzard! I haven't made any single marketing effort yet other than creating this thread. But I'm great believer in “customer service is the new marketing” and I try my best to fulfill it. If it results in your impression that my marketing skills are great, then I'm truly happy because it means that I do my job well!

I am not even so concerned about the high end of the rate either.  You can claim "as low as 1% on a bad day" if you've ever collected exactly 1% on any bad day ever in the entire history of your pool.  And what exactly is your definition of a "bad day"?  Is it one in which we earn the same as or less than litecoin?  Or something else?

Trying to put more light very briefly now: the pool compares its results to competitors, not only to LTC, and “bad day” is a day when competitors did better than us. Also, I want to tweak this algorithm to consider multi-day average, so that the fee would rise only if our profitability would be better than competitors in a multi-day average, and a single exceptional day wouldn't be good enough. For example today's fee is lower than competitors' 3% fee, because our recent days profitability was hit by technical problems and that's why the pool's fee is lower than competitors'.

I still haven't finished this algorithm and that's why I don't publish more details because it's still work in progress and even I am not sure how it will finally work. I don't have time to work on it right now because I have tons of things to fix or finish on the backend and I spend dozens of hours daily on this. Once I sort it out, I'll provide more detailed info and update the website. For now just please know that the pool's fee is in the range of competitors' fees. Is it reassuring enough for now?

On exceptionally lucky days, why should you take a much larger percentage if the proceeds if they are largely a result of luck and not operational efficiencies?  How is that fair to your miners?

I agree that good/bad days on traditional single-coin pools are purely related to good/bad luck and natural variance. But coin-switch pools are different creatures. I believe operational effectiveness is responsible for 80% and luck for 20% of results being good or bad. As I wrote before: I'm going to apply higher fee only if CleverMining will be consistently beating competitors during a multi-day timeframe.

As for your opacity in choosing not to discuss which coins you choose to mine... Absolutely everyone mining can determine with near absolute certainty which coin they are are currently mining by reading the Network "Diff" value from the Block line on their cgminer stats, divide by 65536 (a scrypt constant), and match the results to the list of coin network difficulties on coinwarz or coinchoose (without having to run all the various wallets themselves).  THERE ARE NO SECRETS HERE!  And it's hardly difficult to imagine efficient profitability optimizing coin switching algorithms.  We simply don't want to do it ourselves, as it is more efficient to contract out to the best service provider.  That is your opportunity.  Don't blow it by being opaque and greedy.

I know that it isn't very hard to find, I don't mind. I'm not going to discuss any operational details about how this pool works to achieve its profitability - regardless on how easy or how hard they are to find on your own. This is my policy and I'm going to stick to it. I believe it's for the best interest of all pool users.

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February 07, 2014, 09:01:36 PM
 #237

I am still unfulfilled with that. I felt the same as comeonalready. Idk man
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February 07, 2014, 09:03:54 PM
 #238

the way i look at the amount of investment of time in server admin, coding, design, troubleshooting, beta testing, responding to people here, etc. that @Terk has put into this, it makes me feel confident that he wants to create something that is worthwhile.

This. Thanks for noticing. I put a tremendous amount of time into this project. I hope it's easy to notice that I'm trying to build something good here. This is not a weekend-project!

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February 07, 2014, 09:07:30 PM
 #239

I want to try it out but won't be starting until I see real numbers for fees.  The way it's worded, you can take 100% fees if you wanted.  What is the cap?  And what are the fees if it's running at 0.01BTC/MHs/day?

I mean you just started and already this whole thing is looking pretty shady.  As someone above said, be as transparent as possible.  Worst case, set a fee for now and if you want to change it later, give a 15 day notice or something and change it, that's all.
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February 07, 2014, 09:12:58 PM
 #240

I'm working on connection handling engine and I'm tweaking some settings that hopefully can decrease rejected ratio. I might need to restart the pool application couple of times within the next couple of hours. I'll try not to make it more frequent that once per 90 minutes. So don't worry if you see occasional disconnects tonight. The downtime will be less than 1 second and your miners will be able to reconnect immediately.

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