[ANN][AUTO-SWITCH] Profit-switch auto-exchange pool: CleverMining.com

[phzi]

I want to try it out but won't be starting until I see real numbers for fees.  The way it's worded, you can take 100% fees if you wanted.  What is the cap?  And what are the fees if it's running at 0.01BTC/MHs/day?

I mean you just started and already this whole thing is looking pretty shady.  As someone above said, be as transparent as possible.  Worst case, set a fee for now and if you want to change it later, give a 15 day notice or something and change it, that's all.

Agreed.  I have considered pointing some of my hashing power here, but there is simply no point when this pool is using a "worse-than-middlecoin" model with no transparency.  Tell us what coins we are mining, and how much is unexchanged of each coin.  This is why wafflepool is getting the hashrate they are, and it's only going to increase.  People want stats, not just "point miner here blindly, get paid".  If you want that, you use middlecoin, where at least they are telling you the fee schedule (and have enough hashing power to mine doge with low variance, so will probably trump this pool's payouts regularly).

As for fees, not stating fees is holy unacceptable with so much competition.  I am surprised the pool has the hashrate it does given the current complete lack of transparency.

[pjv]

the way i look at the amount of investment of time in server admin, coding, design, troubleshooting, beta testing, responding to people here, etc. that @Terk has put into this, it makes me feel confident that he wants to create something that is worthwhile.

This. Thanks for noticing. I put a tremendous amount of time into this project. I hope it's easy to notice that I'm trying to build something good here. This is not a weekend-project!

it's obvious to anyone who has ever built anything.

fwiw, i don't care what you charge or how you figure out what to charge. if i make more btc mining with you than elsewhere, i'll mine with you. i've been hashing with you for about 24 hours now and so far, from a profitability standpoint, it is inconclusive. i've made just about the same in the past 24 hours on clevermining.com as i did in the previous 24 hours on middlecoin.

at this very moment, i just noticed that cgminer failed over to middlecoin, so it appears i can't reach clevermining.com. i think that it has been pretty stable for me up to now.

[chilin_dude]

RE varied fees again, you say that if you perform worse than competitors you will charge at max 1%.
Can you reveal what you have charged each day since opening up this thread, so we can compare this to what should have been paid?

[Rocco1180]

more transparency would be really desirable.  Middlecoin fee is 3% + arround 0.4% for withdraw. Would be nice to know the uper end of the variable fee.



BUT at first the horrible reject problem has to be soved. Actually i got around of 15% rejects... 

I'm looking forward to see the daily profits.

[Terk]

Tell us what coins we are mining, and how much is unexchanged of each coin.  This is why wafflepool is getting the hashrate they are, and it's only going to increase.

I would do that only if I thought that my coin-switch engine is mediocre and there is no harm in revealing what my pool is doing to get its profitability. I don't care if others think that their operational details are worthless and can be shared with everyone. I don't think this way about my operational details.

I won't be discussing “tell us what coins we are mining” any more.

i've been hashing with you for about 24 hours now and so far, from a profitability standpoint, it is inconclusive. i've made just about the same in the past 24 hours on clevermining.com as i did in the previous 24 hours on middlecoin.

The pool had a very rough launch and technical issues harmed profitability a lot. Most of them are fixed now, but I'm still having some technical issues that lower our profitability. I believe this is why your results are inconclusive ;-). I'm working on these issues right now.

[ilear]

I already found 4 blocks in 3h of mining here, can someone tell me if i will get some more reward for this in this kind of pool? Or my reward will be normal?

[bitter_miner]

Tell us what coins we are mining, and how much is unexchanged of each coin.  This is why wafflepool is getting the hashrate they are, and it's only going to increase.

I would do that only if I thought that my coin-switch engine is mediocre and there is no harm in revealing what my pool is doing to get its profitability. I don't care if others think that their operational details are worthless and can be shared with everyone. I don't think this way about my operational details.

I won't be discussing “tell us what coins we are mining” any more.

i've been hashing with you for about 24 hours now and so far, from a profitability standpoint, it is inconclusive. i've made just about the same in the past 24 hours on clevermining.com as i did in the previous 24 hours on middlecoin.

The pool had a very rough launch and technical issues harmed profitability a lot. Most of them are fixed now, but I'm still having some technical issues that lower our profitability. I believe this is why your results are inconclusive ;-). I'm working on these issues right now.

Keep up the good work. We appreciate your efforts and updates.

[XliptTit]

Ok,

I sure dont understand the amount of complain beeing directed to the admin, but let me give you my point of view:

Coin-disclosure:

This is simple non-inteligent, it is like beeing a hedge fund and talking to everyone what you are doing, but wait it is WORST than that, because once you mined it you have to sell it and sell it fast, you cant just leave the coins sitting there for days.This situation would provide easy arbitrage opportunity to other people. I have to agree that a balance disclosure WOULD be useful because you never know how the exchange rate is going to change,so you could have a better estimative of your future BTC,but it provides the same kind of problem of the mining thing .

Fee-disclosure:

I think everyone, incluiding Terk, thinks that it would be better to have a complete fee disclosure but his response(it is somewhere in the thread) is a honest one, and remember you can always change the pool if you dont like your earning. It is not like you are handling a lot of money to a investment banker withou knowing his fee, this is a real differente situation.

I didn't read the bashing thread , but let me add something, of course Terk could be applying a BIG fee, or something "shaddy" like that, but just remember you(and me) have a clear metric of our earning, and I have compared to other multi-pools and the earnings seemed fair. I have analyzed the situation and thought this deserves a shot,this doesn't mean I am going to stay here forever, but the guy can't multiply himself, time is needed and I want to support him until I can judge his work is a more neutral light.

The main reasons I stick to this pool are: Middlecoin is too big,Terk has been real supportive and, at least in my opnion, interested in the growing of the pool ,earnings seem prospective and I like the site.

OFF topic:

Terk could you analyse the rejected shares messages me and other people posted in the previous pages to see if they are normal for multipool?I am not talking about "job not found".

[spinkick]

They have a point, right now we are essentially writing a blank check based on how you feel the day went. It needs to be clear and concise. If people are constantly guessing, they will just move to another pool that offers more transparency. I dont think its too much to ask. This is business, after all.

The argument "if you dont like it, go somewhere else" does nobody any good. Terk cant grow a pool that way and its reputation is what a pool lives and dies on. If people do feel ripped off (even if they arent, but its hard to really tell) they WILL leave, but they will also tell 10 other people. All what I'm saying should be obvious, and of course he is busy, but a fee schedule is right up there with "is the server running".

We are all in this to make money so lets be professional and discuss it like businessmen and let the kids stomp their feet or be a cheerleader one way or the other.

[XliptTit]

Spinkick has a point,a day's fee and past days fee would be interesting , even if there is not a properly formula yet.

Average reject rate of the pool vs your reject is good too, so you can know if the rejects are just of the coin we are mining or your problem. Graphs about rejects too.

Keep up the good work

[borris123]

Still getting multiple duplicate share rejects. Not seen this before

[Glandoux]

Ok,

I sure dont understand the amount of complain beeing directed to the admin, but let me give you my point of view:

Coin-disclosure:

This is simple non-inteligent, it is like beeing a hedge fund and talking to everyone what you are doing, but wait it is WORST than that, because once you mined it you have to sell it and sell it fast, you cant just leave the coins sitting there for days.This situation would provide easy arbitrage opportunity to other people. I have to agree that a balance disclosure WOULD be useful because you never know how the exchange rate is going to change,so you could have a better estimative of your future BTC,but it provides the same kind of problem of the mining thing .

Fee-disclosure:

I think everyone, incluiding Terk, thinks that it would be better to have a complete fee disclosure but his response(it is somewhere in the thread) is a honest one, and remember you can always change the pool if you dont like your earning. It is not like you are handling a lot of money to a investment banker withou knowing his fee, this is a real differente situation.

I didn't read the bashing thread , but let me add something, of course Terk could be applying a BIG fee, or something "shaddy" like that, but just remember you(and me) have a clear metric of our earning, and I have compared to other multi-pools and the earnings seemed fair. I have analyzed the situation and thought this deserves a shot,this doesn't mean I am going to stay here forever, but the guy can't multiply himself, time is needed and I want to support him until I can judge his work is a more neutral light.

The main reasons I stick to this pool are: Middlecoin is too big,Terk has been real supportive and, at least in my opnion, interested in the growing of the pool ,earnings seem prospective and I like the site.

OFF topic:

Terk could you analyse the rejected shares messages me and other people posted in the previous pages to see if they are normal for multipool?I am not talking about "job not found".

Coin disclsure I understand 100% and agree 100%, he can not disclose this information.

For fees, it is unbelievable that he wants to take a % of profits and not even give a range of fees he is taking.  He expects people to join a pool that right off the bat is being very vague and shady about fees?

[comeonalready]

Terk,

Even if you consider yourself a software development guy, you are one with a firm grasp of how to design a web site to draw people in.  In particular, I was keenly aware of the many ever-present repeated "start mining now" banners all over your main page.  You could likely find a second career in the production of porn web sites or infomercials with subliminal undertones should either interest you.  What you do choose to share, you present well.

The reason I decided to write was because as I was taking it all in, I was thinking to myself that here is a pool operator who finally gets what miners want, and then I stumbled upon the secrecy clause, buried deep within the bowels of the web site, hidden out of view seemingly with intention.  One of your competitors obfuscates anything and everything, and never bothers to answer anyone for any reason except that he was first in the game and still thinks he is the only one in town.  Another chooses to ignore tangible data including easily verified block chain data and how it shows that his switching algorithm likely has a correctable operational inefficiency affecting all of his miners, and instead of looking into it he chooses to go back and forth with a 140Kh/s miner on why he is missing his 0.000000002 btc from a single altcoin because his share fell below the eight digit precision to the right of the decimal point.

I don't care what coins I am mining.  I don't care which coins my unexchanged balance is sitting in.  It's largely irrelevant to me until it is converted into btc which is all I care to receive.  I don't need much of the extra data waffle provides, and I am a guy who recognizes that good decisions are based upon good data.  The real problem is, that with the exception of payouts and fees, all other data is subject to being easily fudged and finessed for personal benefit.  All I need is how much the proceeds are from my mining, and how much I pay you to make that possible.  It figures into my opportunity cost calculations.

Profitability is paramount of course, but I have a right to know how much I am paying you for your services.  And I am more than willing to pay more here than elsewhere for exceptional results, over statistically relevant time periods.  Though I strongly believe your 80% secret sauce / 20% luck estimates to be way off base, I am not interested in working though the data to prove it to you or anyone else.  It is a very common mistake to underestimate the effect of luck in short term statistics, and even the data sample size required in order to accurately reflect long term results.  And I believe you are making the very same one.  I don't want your secret sauce, I want to know how much I am paying you to make it.

There is tremendous opportunity in this space, and it will likely pass you by if you do not shore up your shortcomings.  Kudos to h2o.  He was first (I think) and deserves some credit for that.  But you're not second or third, or likely even tenth, but you could be a player if you shore up your shortcomings.  

The relationship between miners and pool operators is a symbiotic one.  If you take more than you give, as a pool operator you will likely find the relationship to be a very temporary one.

[spinkick]

agreed. Trade secrets are one thing (coin he is trading), but what customer signs a contract without knowing how much they are paying?  Obviously we are not signing contracts but just as a matter of speech.

[XliptTit]

comeonalready is right in regard to fee disclosure, even if you dont have a properly formula yet and the fee may seem completly random we should know the fee.If you are beeing honest,which I think it is true, not disclosuring the fee is the worst thing, it doesn't build trust

[byt411]

Can't you guys leave him alone? Alright, I agree that showing what fees he toke in the past is fair, but please stop pestering him from deciding a fee. This is just getting stupid.

[XliptTit]

We are not pestering him about deciding which fee formula he will use, we are just asking for a disclosure of what fee he is charging/charged. I really dont care, in the short run, if the fee seem completly random, as long as I know that they are reasonable. That is the only non-technical thing I am asking, just put there : past 24h fee/today fee and a fee graph that is not too much and it isn't rushing he to take a decision about future fee's.

[borris123]

Loads of rejects saying share is above target. What is this???

[XliptTit]

Loads of rejects saying share is above target. What is this???

I dont know I get a lot rejects saying  " rejected untracked stratum share from pool 0"

I already posted here, I think Terk should be able to look upon this shortly

[Terk]

I'm sorry but the pool database needs emergency maintenance causing downtime. Will be back in ~5 minutes.