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Author Topic: Logical and mathematical truth of bitcoin  (Read 322 times)
BitcoinNewbie15
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June 28, 2018, 12:43:42 PM
 #21



How excatly is Bitcoin a scam? It doesn't fit under any definition of scam. It especially doesn't fit under the definition of Ponzi or Pyramid scheme.

It does. If the core concept is not viable, its basically the same as there is no real product behind. It is assumed, that 1 transaction takes same amount of energy as household in 1 week. Its so unreasonably expensive, that it makes transactions impossible in large volume.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Just think about it and You see, Im right.

The amount of electricity consumed has nothing to do with the network throughput. Bitcoins electricity consumption has to do with security. There doesn't need to be this much electricity being used to power Bitcoin. Bitcoin would function just fine if there was half the electricity being used, or even less than that. There are just a lot of miners mining right now because of the gold rush. Bitcoins second layer, the lightning network, will completely solve Bitcoins transaction throughput. The lightning network uses a negligible amount of electricity too.
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June 28, 2018, 02:17:57 PM
 #22

As they say, how many people, so many opinions. People have long divided into 2 camps - some believe in bitcoin, others do not believe. Who will win - only time will show. I remain an outside observer ...))
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June 28, 2018, 04:07:22 PM
 #23

This was a very informative post. But I don't agree that Bitcoin mining is scam. If you are able to catch the track once, you will always be profitted with the mining.
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June 28, 2018, 04:57:47 PM
 #24

Those who want to believe in BTC at all cost, should avoid this topic.
To help some people, who started to think about the core concept of bitcoin, my judgement is:

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

Before You attack my opion, try to give logical answer to these questions:

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?
b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.
c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?
d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?
e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Maybe it wasnt planned so, but BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

Previous doesnt mean, You absolutely can not make any money in it. The same goes for ponzis and pyramids. If You go in or out right time, You will earn and at some cases earn well!

After reading your message, I have a question for you??? Have you lost a lot of money when buying bitcoin?Huh Apparently Yes, and this is called the cry of your soul that I did not have time to earn good money. I pity you. And I am sad to read such messages where a person is trying to turn the world around and make everyone guilty except himself. Or is this your way of asserting yourself???
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June 28, 2018, 05:33:45 PM
 #25


After reading your message, I have a question for you??? Have you lost a lot of money when buying bitcoin?Huh Apparently Yes, and this is called the cry of your soul that I did not have time to earn good money. I pity you. And I am sad to read such messages where a person is trying to turn the world around and make everyone guilty except himself. Or is this your way of asserting yourself???

I havent lost a penny. I just see, that this scheme is much bigger, than anything before it. Few people, who listen me, save a lot of money.
I was in a team, who brought down KairosPlanet scheme, which too milked many people empty, while authorities refused to blacklist it. So in other words: I help people, who are trying sincerely invest money to avoid scam.
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June 28, 2018, 05:45:44 PM
 #26



How excatly is Bitcoin a scam? It doesn't fit under any definition of scam. It especially doesn't fit under the definition of Ponzi or Pyramid scheme.

It does. If the core concept is not viable, its basically the same as there is no real product behind. It is assumed, that 1 transaction takes same amount of energy as household in 1 week. Its so unreasonably expensive, that it makes transactions impossible in large volume.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Just think about it and You see, Im right.

The amount of electricity consumed has nothing to do with the network throughput. Bitcoins electricity consumption has to do with security. There doesn't need to be this much electricity being used to power Bitcoin. Bitcoin would function just fine if there was half the electricity being used, or even less than that. There are just a lot of miners mining right now because of the gold rush. Bitcoins second layer, the lightning network, will completely solve Bitcoins transaction throughput. The lightning network uses a negligible amount of electricity too.

Now, this is deceptive. Bitcoin mining IS adding transaction records to the chain. I never said anything about network throughput, I said its way too energy-consuming, to be even close to reasonable. And that work will not be less energy-consuming in future, but even much more so. At the moment big share of coins are just objects of speculation and are not used in any way. This is by far the biggest scam in human history.

And with bringing in "lightning network", You mathematically drown only deeper into waters of impossibility. Same thing here, as with KairosPlanet fraud - demand, that all participating parties have to be online at same time will NOT WORK.
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June 28, 2018, 06:00:04 PM
 #27

this is good knowledge for new investor for me. thank you for sharing the value.  Smiley
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June 28, 2018, 07:09:58 PM
 #28

P.S. all of the answer is logical according to myself

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

"mining" supposed to be voluntary and the volunteer get rewarded, not for profit. Also, there's mining-pool to ensure you always get something.

Nope, mining is CLAIMED to be voluntary, but it is driven by price of BTC. People make communities and buy special equipment, to increase their mining odds. And there will NOT always be something to mine. It is confirmed, that number of released coins halves every 5 years. Thats mathematically exponential and will drop to nothing - there will be nothing left to mine.

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

This statement doesn't make sense, explain it more detail.

One primary quality of frauds is, that there is absence of real product behind deals. Now, if product is very unreasonably uneffective, its the same, as its missing at all. It is estimated, that 1 transaction of BTC takes same amount of power, than household in week. Now, thats just not viable product.

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?

Because Satoshi Nakamoto set it to 21 million and it's coincidence with biggest number of 64-bit floating point number even though there are many other speculation.
But there's no limit and you can change the production/total supply, you just need community approval.

It´s essentially the same, as Nakamoto told, there is 21 million ounces of gold to find, when it finishesh of, community decides, there is more. Both parts of last sentence are not serious.

b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.

That's the risk of truly decentralized currency, the exchange price to fiat can be manipulated easily. Also, you already answer the point.

That´s correct, if we have risky business on real product/service. Thats what I am saying: we DONT have a product behind here.

c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?

Who claim that?

Enthusiasts. There are very few privileges in BTC compared to, say Paypal. Thats not in accordance with electry consumtion.

d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?

There's plenty of explanation about asymmetric cryptography, so of course most bitcoiner already know about it.

They dont understand, that everybody uses it already. Its not an edgeof BTC.

e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Because investor don't know or don't believe the potential of Bitcoin.

Because they are smarter, than market in average.

In market btc is the first crypto currency in the world based on this crypto currency is depend on btc so you need to know what is scam and what is real so you should know the proper idea of it based on this you can’t tell like this because I think you have lack of knowledge of btc.

The whole idea is not viable. Think, how are miners going to be paid, after last coin is mined? The job of blockchaining still needs to be done and in increasing quantities only.

Isn't it obvious that miners still get paid by fees in transaction that they included in mined block?

Its not. If one transaction takes same power, than household in week, the price would be not competitive


1. As i mentioned earlier, miners still "mine"/rewarded-by transaction fees even if the block mining reward is 0
2. Bitcoin value isn't determined by backed goods or electricity usage for mining, the value comes from people who trade bitcoin. Also, bitcoin is backed with it's asymmetric cryptography, decentralized/immutable shared database and bitcoin community itself.

a. Who knows if majority of the community think differently in future and decide to use inflationary currency again
b. Bitcoin is the product, specifically digital/electronic P2P cryptocurrency. Goods/product don't need to have physical form.
c. Then your argument is invalid
d. Maybe, but that doesn't matter since those naive people are "protected" by cryptography
e. True, but even them won't able to find bitcoin potential if they don't spend their time to do their research which most rich investor don't do

In market btc is the first crypto currency in the world based on this crypto currency is depend on btc so you need to know what is scam and what is real so you should know the proper idea of it based on this you can’t tell like this because I think you have lack of knowledge of btc.

The whole idea is not viable. Think, how are miners going to be paid, after last coin is mined? The job of blockchaining still needs to be done and in increasing quantities only.

Isn't it obvious that miners still get paid by fees in transaction that they included in mined block?

Its not. If one transaction takes same power, than household in week, the price would be not competitive


Please do your research. One transaction don't need power equal to power needed for household in a week since the electricity is actually used for PoW to make bitcoin network more secure and the cost to do 51% hashrate-attack too expensive.

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June 28, 2018, 07:23:08 PM
 #29

And the good old arguments about BTC being a fraud because there's no product behind it... No offense OP, but people who are repeating this are stuck in 20th century. At that time goods and services that weren't physical objects were extremely rare, but they did exist. For instance, electricity. You are paying for it, but you can't touch it. You might say that you have the wall sockets, which are physical, but the power can cease to travel through them at any moment and it's not up to you to decide.
I know this is not the best comparison, but it was the closest that you, old people, were to buying an intangible product back in the day.
We are in the era of Internet domains being worth a million USD. People are trading pixels for real money. They have been doing it long before BTC. Intangible product doesn't equal fraud!

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June 28, 2018, 07:35:25 PM
 #30

Answer to question 1:
Mining precious metals work exactly the same way. If Gold was easy to find, everybody would be into Gold Mining... this is why Gold is valuable.
 Gold despite being scare can be mined by anybody but you have to put in a lot of work to be successful. If you go into mining, your finds should be in proportion to the energy/effort you put into mining. Same thing is applicable to Bitcoin mining.
The creator of Bitcoin clearly understood this fact. He didn't need to copy governments fraudulent way of printing monies that aren't commensurate with their real values.
Unfortunately not a lot of people are into Bitcoin mining. I expect it to be more decentralized than Gold Mining. Small scale miners should exist in Bitcoin like they are in Gold.

Question 2:  Why is Bitcoin limited to 21million? 
To make it scarce and as limited as Gold. Gold and other precious metals are limited too.

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June 28, 2018, 07:58:04 PM
 #31

There is no mathematical or logical truth in your post. Here are the answers to your questions.

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?

Majority consensus of the users limits it. If a minority tries to change the limit, the minority is exiled.

b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.

Decentralized money removes the control over its use by any third party. Volatility can be a problem now, but it won't always be a problem (hopefully).

c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?

The blockchain removes the need for trust in a third party to manage a common pool of value. Bitcoin uses public key cryptography, but public key cryptography isn't sufficient all by itself.

d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?

Many people don't understand it, but understanding it is not necessary in order to use Bitcoin.

e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Many are skeptical, and many oppose it because their wealth and well-being are dependent on the survival of legacy currency systems. Either way, unanimous belief in the success of Bitcoin is not required for its success.

Maybe it wasnt planned so, but BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

In order for it to be a scam, someone must be the scammer. Who is the scammer?

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

It may be small, but it is not zero, even in practice. Many people earn money from mining, so it can't be zero.

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

It is not monetary fraud. Where is the fraud? People are not cheated by the concept. How can they be cheated by a concept? BTC is legit. You have provided no information at all to back up your claim.


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June 28, 2018, 08:21:30 PM
 #32

Sorry, Your answers are empty. Same as to convince the missionary, that there is no God. BTC is Yours. For others to read answers below.

There is no mathematical or logical truth in your post. Here are the answers to your questions.

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?

Majority consensus of the users limits it. If a minority tries to change the limit, the minority is exiled.

Majority didnt set cap of BTC ever released, founders of this scheme did.

b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.

Decentralized money removes the control over its use by any third party. Volatility can be a problem now, but it won't always be a problem (hopefully).

Yes, it wont be soon. End of BTC is very close. You will see it very soon. Btw, You argue with Your own first point. You promised, minority will be exiled, now You tell, third party can not touch my coin. So can You or not? Do You even understand how impossible it is, what You speak?

c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?

The blockchain removes the need for trust in a third party to manage a common pool of value. Bitcoin uses public key cryptography, but public key cryptography isn't sufficient all by itself.

You know nothing about basics of cryptography and computing, right?

d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?

Many people don't understand it, but understanding it is not necessary in order to use Bitcoin.

Indeed. To "invest" into something, thats highly volatile and You have no clue about, what is it... Ingenious.

e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Many are skeptical, and many oppose it because their wealth and well-being are dependent on the survival of legacy currency systems. Either way, unanimous belief in the success of Bitcoin is not required for its success.

Nope, they would not mind to earn 1000% ROI, their well-being would be very high:) They just understand it is very likely a scam.

Maybe it wasnt planned so, but BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

In order for it to be a scam, someone must be the scammer. Who is the scammer?

Thats an easy answer. As in every scam - early enthusiasts. Bitcoin was first released 10 years ago, right? Despite that 81% of BTC is already released during 10 years! Now the fun part! 19% remaining will be released during next 20 years! Purest scam ever!!

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

It may be small, but it is not zero, even in practice. Many people earn money from mining, so it can't be zero.

A bit bad language usage here. Its not zero mathematically, its collective ROI is zero! That means, the moment You start mining, You can not assume mathematically, that ROI of mining itself will be positive.

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

It is not monetary fraud. Where is the fraud? People are not cheated by the concept. How can they be cheated by a concept? BTC is legit. You have provided no information at all to back up your claim.

Fraud is there: people are promised UFO technology, a revolution in money transfers. It will not work, because its impossible!! I provided no information??? I have told You all facts and calculations, all You do, is trying to convince me, Im wrong. Math is not wrong. Can You read graphs? Look any at those, that even You dont deny! For example release frequency of coins! What are the miners going to be paid with until 2040 if 81% of coins are at early scammers already? THINK!


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June 28, 2018, 08:23:42 PM
 #33

I havent lost a penny. I just see, that this scheme is much bigger, than anything before it. Few people, who listen me, save a lot of money.
I was in a team, who brought down KairosPlanet scheme, which too milked many people empty, while authorities refused to blacklist it. So in other words: I help people, who are trying sincerely invest money to avoid scam.

If you are truly trying to help people, then I suggest that you stop labeling Bitcoin as a scam. It isn't a scam, and you are diminishing your credibility by claiming that it is.

I believe that most people up to now have been investing in Bitcoin for the wrong reasons, and I believe that they will probably lose money as a result (if they haven't already). The problem is not Bitcoin. IMHO, the real problem is all of the misinformation promoted by ignorant people. The solution therefore not to attack Bitcoin, but to correct the misinformation with accurate and correct information whenever you can.

Even though I disagree with you, I support your efforts. Claiming that Bitcoin is a scam with unspecified or poorly supported reasons is no better than all of the other misinformation out there. You can do better.

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June 28, 2018, 08:26:45 PM
 #34

I was expecting hard math and logic supported by corroborating data analysis

I got noob nonsense that meant nothing.

/thread

these kind of threads need to be on junior discussion boards not the main boards.





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Marlo Stanfield
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June 28, 2018, 08:34:51 PM
 #35

I think "HYIP cartel" are using Bitcoin for their 200% to 400% profit per month HYIP programs/ponzis since Bitcoin is anonymous and unregulated.

HYIP programs pay high profits for 2 to 3 years and then they shut down.

I highly doubt that. It's not anonymous, and why would some small time scammers be able to control a global market in the hundreds of billions of dollars? Maybe they use BTC to take payments or whatever, but it's a complete non-issue for Bitcoin itself.
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June 28, 2018, 08:48:56 PM
 #36

I was expecting hard math and logic supported by corroborating data analysis

I got noob nonsense that meant nothing.

/thread

these kind of threads need to be on junior discussion boards not the main boards.

Where's the point in that, if You don't understand even simple sentences.

If 17 million coins are released until now and 4 million will be released during 24 years, its a pyramid. Not my fault, You are unable to understand it.
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June 28, 2018, 08:49:34 PM
 #37

Majority didnt set cap of BTC ever released, founders of this scheme did.

The majority maintains the cap. If the majority wants to change it they can, but it is unlikely that they ever will because there is no benefit.

Yes, it wont be soon. End of BTC is very close. You will see it very soon. Btw, You argue with Your own first point. You promised, minority will be exiled, now You tell, third party can not touch my coin. So can You or not? Do You even understand how impossible it is, what You speak?

You might be right. Bitcoin could crash at any time. I give it a 30% chance of total failure.

Anyway, the minority chain might be exiled, but they still have their coins (on both chains).

You know nothing about basics of cryptography and computing, right?

I actually know quite a bit. It has been my profession for 30 years.

Indeed. To "invest" into something, thats highly volatile and You have no clue about, what is it... Ingenious.

You seem to believe that anything that is a poor investment is a scam. I don't agree.

Nope, they would not mind to earn 1000% ROI, their well-being would be very high:) They just understand it is very likely a scam.

They are misinformed. Being wealthy doesn't automatically make you well-informed about everything.

Thats an easy answer. As in every scam - early enthusiasts. Bitcoin was first released 10 years ago, right? Despite that 81% of BTC is already released during 10 years! Now the fun part! 19% remaining will be released during next 20 years! Purest scam ever!!

You equate Bitcoin with a pyramid scheme and I have to agree that it has some of the same characteristics, but all investments are like that. Name a successful company in which the earliest investors haven't done better than later investors. Do you believe that Microsoft or Google or Amazon or Netflix or Apple are scams simply because the early investors ignored the doubters and made a ton of money?

A bit bad language usage here. Its not zero mathematically, its collective ROI is zero! That means, the moment You start mining, You can not assume mathematically, that ROI of mining itself will be positive.

The ROI is not 0. It may be close to 0, but it is not 0. You can assume that it is greater than 0 because if it were not, then nobody would mine.

Fraud is there: people are promised UFO technology, a revolution in money transfers. It will not work, because its impossible!! I provided no information??? I have told You all facts and calculations, all You do, is trying to convince me, Im wrong. Math is not wrong. Can You read graphs? Look any at those, that even You dont deny! For example release frequency of coins! What are the miners going to be paid with until 2040 if 81% of coins are at early scammers already? THINK!

You have provided no facts, just exaggerated claims and opinions.

Buy bitcoins with cash from somebody near you: LocalBitcoins
Buy stuff on Amazon at a discount with bitcoins: Purse.io
Join an anti-signature campaign: DannyHamilton's ignore list
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June 28, 2018, 08:54:56 PM
 #38

I was expecting hard math and logic supported by corroborating data analysis

I got noob nonsense that meant nothing.

/thread

these kind of threads need to be on junior discussion boards not the main boards.

Where's the point in that, if You don't understand even simple sentences.

If 17 million coins are released until now and 4 million will be released during 24 years, its a pyramid. Not my fault, You are unable to understand it.

LOL

That is your logical proof with supporting math for the fact bitcoin will fail?

Let me apply some statistical analysis........ = dohh = duh

The only sentences I don't understand are yours it woulds seem.





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June 28, 2018, 08:56:01 PM
 #39

Answer to question 1:
Mining precious metals work exactly the same way. If Gold was easy to find, everybody would be into Gold Mining... this is why Gold is valuable.
 Gold despite being scare can be mined by anybody but you have to put in a lot of work to be successful. If you go into mining, your finds should be in proportion to the energy/effort you put into mining. Same thing is applicable to Bitcoin mining.
The creator of Bitcoin clearly understood this fact. He didn't need to copy governments fraudulent way of printing monies that aren't commensurate with their real values.
Unfortunately not a lot of people are into Bitcoin mining. I expect it to be more decentralized than Gold Mining. Small scale miners should exist in Bitcoin like they are in Gold.

Question 2:  Why is Bitcoin limited to 21million? 
To make it scarce and as limited as Gold. Gold and other precious metals are limited too.


Mining gold works exactly same way? Nakamoto writes everyone, how much gold there is to mine and how much gold of that limited pool will be found each period of time? Oh please!
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June 28, 2018, 09:04:26 PM
 #40

Those who want to believe in BTC at all cost, should avoid this topic.
You must have balls of an idiot to come to the Bitcoin Forum to post this? Anyway, the topic title is interesting so I choose to continue ahead with a narrow mind.

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?
It's not pure luck. It is how the system is designed. Why can't you suggest a better way of handling it? If you think you can solve the problems of bitcoin, you're free to create your own shit? What's stopping you?

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.
You seem like some from r/btc now. Those are the typical idiots who think that way without any logical explanations.

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?
b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.
c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?
d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?
e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?
a) Call that a lucky number? If it wasn't limited, would it have any value? Do company shares are unlimited in supply ?
b) Hyperinflation never occur in the stock market?
c) Irrelevant
d) Most of us do? As long as you know how the system works, you don't have to understand every core file of it.Abstraction!
e) They might be? How would you know?


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