Bitcoin Forum
February 25, 2020, 01:55:37 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.19.0.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: How Can/Do You Store Files on a Blockchain?  (Read 632 times)
goddog
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 39

8426 2618 9F5F C7BF 22BD E814 763A 57A1 AA19 E681


View Profile
July 02, 2018, 01:00:18 PM
 #21

Now imagine using that kind of technology on other day to day transactions from buying and selling of assets (real estate, stocks) to the government's activities it will give you more transparency on your deals and their actions. Someone will input/execute the transaction and everybody can look it up in the blockchain. Just think of it as an tamper proof online ledger where once you successfully inputted a data it can never be change or altered inside the chain.
OP wanted to store a PDF, at $1000 (today) to $100,000 (last December) per MB, that's rediculously expensive to do.
What you can do, is just store the hash of the file. This proves the file existed at the moment the hash was stored, and can't be altered anymore.
Dooglus did this to store Bustabit's hash here.
opentimestamp is a good solution for proof of existence. It uses aggregation to reduce blockchain usage(spamming) in a trustless way. Thats better because a single transaction can provide PoE for  potentially infinite number or files. Of course it is a little centralized, but, it is trustless, and, if you have a lot of files to PoE you can run your own aggregation pool so you are not forced to use their default servers. Take a look at https://opentimestamps.org/ it is a very good solution.

thank you for taking time to read my post.
1582638937
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582638937

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582638937
Reply with quote  #2

1582638937
Report to moderator
1582638937
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582638937

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582638937
Reply with quote  #2

1582638937
Report to moderator
1582638937
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582638937

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582638937
Reply with quote  #2

1582638937
Report to moderator
Bitcoin Poker 3.0
The Largest Bitcoin Poker Site
Bad Beat Jackpot Available
No Limit Texas Hold'em Cash Games And Tournaments
PLAY NOW
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1582638937
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582638937

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582638937
Reply with quote  #2

1582638937
Report to moderator
1582638937
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582638937

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582638937
Reply with quote  #2

1582638937
Report to moderator
1582638937
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1582638937

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1582638937
Reply with quote  #2

1582638937
Report to moderator
cellard
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1211


View Profile
July 02, 2018, 06:55:54 PM
 #22

Hashing a file and putting it on the blockchain is as far as it's going to get to "store files on the blockchain". The actual files will never be able to be held in a blockchain. Blockchain space is a scarce resource, we have already problems fitting in transactions, imagine if people start uploading GB's worth of crap.

There was a project called freenet that attempted a decentralized network to store files there, im not sure if it died or not but that may make more sense that using a blockchain.
goddog
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 140
Merit: 39

8426 2618 9F5F C7BF 22BD E814 763A 57A1 AA19 E681


View Profile
July 02, 2018, 07:04:47 PM
 #23

There was a project called freenet that attempted a decentralized network to store files there, im not sure if it died or not but that may make more sense that using a blockchain.
Freenet is not died. It don't use the blockchain, it is a totally different approach more similar to a decentralized caching. It is very cool and there are a lot of plugins take a look at this simple guide
http://freesocial.draketo.de/index_en.html
This is tutorial is designed for anyone who wants to use Freenet primarily for anonymous and censorship-resistant social networking and truly private email.

thank you for taking time to read my post.
dafunkizdiz
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 16
Merit: 0


View Profile
July 03, 2018, 12:29:21 AM
 #24

> Blockchain is a source of truth.
> Bitcoin's blockchain is for made for recording transactions, not random messages.
> Blockchain can be used for storing other types of messages. For instance, one common use case is to do voting.
> Storing any arbitrary data on blockchain would simply not scale
wiwi24680
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 23
Merit: 0


View Profile
July 03, 2018, 07:20:24 AM
 #25

We can store files, or anything on blockchain definitely. But one you should also consider is the usage of blockchain. Why storing such a document on blockchain is good, considering its cost and its benefits are drawbacks are important too.
Crypto_Sassy
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 169
Merit: 18


View Profile
July 20, 2018, 04:07:21 AM
 #26

Look like , I am late on this discussion but I read the whole thread.

If storing file in blockchain is so expensive then all the altcoin developers are scamming by telling that there project aims to put documents in Blockchain ?
or it is feasible to create a different flavor of blockchain that is capable of storing large volume of data?
Kallisteiros
Copper Member
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 85
Merit: 48


View Profile
July 22, 2018, 11:03:28 AM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #27

If storing file in blockchain is so expensive then all the altcoin developers are scamming by telling that there project aims to put documents in Blockchain ?
Either that, or they mean something else, or they innocently believe it's possible, but haven't really tried. I always roll my eyes when a new client comes in with an idea to create a social network on blockchain, with photos and pictures and video etc.

Remember, objects in the blockchain are stored by the whole network. If you want to store some data, it must now be propagated to all thousands of full nodes and stored by them indefinitely. So the high price of doing that is justified.

Quote
or it is feasible to create a different flavor of blockchain that is capable of storing large volume of data?
Decentralized storage is better, see the projects mentioned above. You can just pay 50 people to store the file for you (much cheaper), then put a file's hash on the blockchain as a proof-of-existence, proof-of-sequence, or a pointer. Nodes interested in getting this information will ask around, and the storage providers will give them the file.

We're already suffering from enormous blockchain sizes and low throughput. Don't try to make our lives even harder. Hopefully, breakthroughs in technologies like sharding and Lightning Network will help with some of these issues.
akunate
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 27
Merit: 0


View Profile
July 25, 2018, 01:54:23 AM
 #28

sure we can store files on blockchain, but it will be very inefficient and bloated in size
it would be better to have a blockchain for storing "references" to actual file location
the file can be stored in multiple locations, and the blockchain serves as a pointer to them
I'm thinking of "napster meets blockchain", we have distributed file sharing and then blockchain to keep all valid references

I like this idea
We have a new project and it is necessary to store files on blockchain, we are not at that stage but it is good to know that we have some options Smiley
coinableS
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001



View Profile WWW
July 27, 2018, 03:40:37 AM
 #29

It's important to make the distinction between storing actual files and the ability to write 80 arbitrary bytes to the OP_RETURN. To utilize the blockchain to store a pdf would require you to create many OP_RETURN outputs containing the raw bytes.  Then when ready to fetch the file you would have to combine all the output OP_RETURN data in order and then compile the raw bytes into an actual usable PDF. It's terribly inefficient and creates outputs that can never be spent, forever littering the UTXO set.

Evil-Knievel
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1274
Merit: 1160



View Profile
July 27, 2018, 04:13:13 AM
 #30

It's important to make the distinction between storing actual files and the ability to write 80 arbitrary bytes to the OP_RETURN. To utilize the blockchain to store a pdf would require you to create many OP_RETURN outputs containing the raw bytes.  Then when ready to fetch the file you would have to combine all the output OP_RETURN data in order and then compile the raw bytes into an actual usable PDF. It's terribly inefficient and creates outputs that can never be spent, forever littering the UTXO set.

You could also store them in the 2nd and 3rd public key of a 1-of-3 multisignature output script and spend these outputs whenever you like Smiley
Ivan - WorkChain.io
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56
Merit: 0


View Profile WWW
July 27, 2018, 08:12:41 AM
 #31

Now imagine using that kind of technology on other day to day transactions from buying and selling of assets (real estate, stocks) to the government's activities it will give you more transparency on your deals and their actions. Someone will input/execute the transaction and everybody can look it up in the blockchain. Just think of it as an tamper proof online ledger where once you successfully inputted a data it can never be change or altered inside the chain.
OP wanted to store a PDF, at $1000 (today) to $100,000 (last December) per MB, that's rediculously expensive to do.
What you can do, is just store the hash of the file. This proves the file existed at the moment the hash was stored, and can't be altered anymore.
Dooglus did this to store Bustabit's hash here.

I think this is solid answer, IPFS is one of the examples.
Its great that it works even today and you can see great community there.
Evil-Knievel
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1274
Merit: 1160



View Profile
July 27, 2018, 08:57:37 AM
 #32

I think this is solid answer, IPFS is one of the examples.
Its great that it works even today and you can see great community there.

Sorry, but that is just not entirely true.

First of all, storing a hash is not storing the file. The OP specifically asked for storing a file and not just recording it's existence. What if someone wants to store a file that will be there even if all his computer equipment is destroyed?

Also, you can save all those files on the Blockchain fairly cheaply - no 100,000$ needed.

1 MB data can be split up on 8192 1-of-3 transactions using 2*64 byte from the second and third public key.

I am not sure how much overhead comes with each of those ... let's say it's 300 byte per transaction to calculate easier. That would make the 8192 transactions a total size of 2,4MB including overhead. Currently, 0.00001 BTC/kB is enough to get your TX confirmed. That would be 0.024576 BTC to store your 1 MB file incl. overhead.

That is 195.90 USD, not 100,000.00!
akunate
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 27
Merit: 0


View Profile
July 27, 2018, 02:26:51 PM
 #33

I think this is solid answer, IPFS is one of the examples.
Its great that it works even today and you can see great community there.

Sorry, but that is just not entirely true.

First of all, storing a hash is not storing the file. The OP specifically asked for storing a file and not just recording it's existence. What if someone wants to store a file that will be there even if all his computer equipment is destroyed?

Also, you can save all those files on the Blockchain fairly cheaply - no 100,000$ needed.

1 MB data can be split up on 8192 1-of-3 transactions using 2*64 byte from the second and third public key.

I am not sure how much overhead comes with each of those ... let's say it's 300 byte per transaction to calculate easier. That would make the 8192 transactions a total size of 2,4MB including overhead. Currently, 0.00001 BTC/kB is enough to get your TX confirmed. That would be 0.024576 BTC to store your 1 MB file incl. overhead.

That is 195.90 USD, not 100,000.00!

We are trying to run a project which every member will have about 500mb or 1gb files. Is it possible to store on blockchain?
or can you give some advice how to store every big files of members anonymously?
time2.coffee
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 36
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 17, 2018, 09:14:33 AM
 #34

We know blockchain is not only limited to cryptocurrencies. But how exactly do you store files, say a one page pdf, in a blockchain? Especially without using any third-party services like IPFS.
Are you asking about how to abuse the blockchain? lol.
You should not!

Abuse? Clearly you should read more. File storage is one of the best usecase for blockchain, and there's already a lot of sites/services that provides it.

As mentioned here - I have heard of Sia and Storj, but what are the best usecases/approach services for storing files ?
TheArchaeologist
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84
Merit: 94

Learn from the Past!


View Profile WWW
August 17, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
Last edit: August 17, 2018, 04:41:51 PM by TheArchaeologist
 #35

Quote
As mentioned here - I have heard of Sia and Storj, but what are the best usecases/approach services for storing files ?
SIA and Storj do NOT store any files in a blockchain themselves. That wouldn't make any sense since it would mean all nodes should have a copy of every single file. Which in turn would mean the blockchain itself could become Petabytes big. Instead, they store smart contracts on a blockchain which describes an agreement between a hoster and a party who needs to store files. Just to be sure files will be stored redundantly on a couple of hosters.

I'm not enough confident about Storj to say there are good use cases but I know for sure SIA is an absolute no go at the moment for a couple of reasons:
  • Storage is limited to 5TB and below 2TB it's way too expensive
  • Smallest size for a file is 40MB, which means you pay for 40MB even if you store a file of a couple of bytes. Backing up a lot of small files is a no-go area
  • You can only restore your files from a computer where you uploaded them from. So if the HDD fails you can't even restore your own "backup"
  • Development team is a bunch of kids who have no idea what they are doing.
Kprawn
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1862
Merit: 1068


View Profile
August 17, 2018, 04:01:16 PM
 #36

Can you imagine what the Blockchain size would be, if you stored large files on it? Nope, I would rather use a cloud storage

site and then link a URL in the Blockchain to that file. Yes, it will only store the file until the cloud storage site close down, but

you can always move the file when that happens and then re-link the new URL with a new transaction on the Blockchain.  Roll Eyes

THE FIRST DECENTRALIZED & PLAYER-OWNED CASINO
.EARNBET..EARN BITCOIN: DIVIDENDS
FOR-LIFETIME & MUCH MORE.
. BET WITH: BTCETHEOSLTCBCHWAXXRPBNB
.JOIN US: GITLABTWITTERTELEGRAM
r1s2g3
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 658
Merit: 388


I am alive but in hibernation.


View Profile
August 17, 2018, 07:51:20 PM
 #37

I think this is solid answer, IPFS is one of the examples.
Its great that it works even today and you can see great community there.


That is 195.90 USD, not 100,000.00!

ok no $1000 or $100K
Do you think still $195 for an MB is a cheap option?  What about if you need to store a GB then.
It is better to use the technology that is intended for the purpose. Storage is getting cheaper and faster day by day but it is not true for the blockchain.

I am alive
time2.coffee
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 36
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 18, 2018, 07:39:19 AM
 #38

Quote
As mentioned here - I have heard of Sia and Storj, but what are the best usecases/approach services for storing files ?
SIA and Storj do NOT store any files in a blockchain themselves. That wouldn't make any sense since it would mean all nodes should have a copy of every single file. Which in turn would mean the blockchain itself could become Petabytes big. Instead, they store smart contracts on a blockchain which describes an agreement between a hoster and a party who needs to store files. Just to be sure files will be stored redundantly on a couple of hosters.

I'm not enough confident about Storj to say there are good use cases but I know for sure SIA is an absolute no go at the moment for a couple of reasons:
  • Storage is limited to 5TB and below 2TB it's way too expensive
  • Smallest size for a file is 40MB, which means you pay for 40MB even if you store a file of a couple of bytes. Backing up a lot of small files is a no-go area
  • You can only restore your files from a computer where you uploaded them from. So if the HDD fails you can't even restore your own "backup"
  • Development team is a bunch of kids who have no idea what they are doing.


Thank you for explaining. I am sure Storj team has some plan in mind on their way, but it is not perfect for the moment. If we presume SSD capacities grow exponentially - I think in some near future file storage is possible on a blockchain.
jatin729
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 728
Merit: 108

Ambassador at Fetch.AI


View Profile WWW
August 19, 2018, 09:04:16 AM
 #39

I don't know about Storing file on blockchain but i wanna add one thing in this as we know blockchain is super secure why not some one invented a drive or memory space which is encrypted by blockchain and works like same as wallet works on private key. It can be more secure feature to store your files because no can access yours files without private key.
Steamtyme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924
Merit: 1655


Exchange Bitcoin quickly-https://blockchain.com.do


View Profile WWW
August 26, 2018, 01:40:46 AM
 #40

I fully admit I'm out of my depth, when it comes to the nuances of file sizes and blockchain capabilities. After reading through this though, it seems to me that 99% of the real world applications people want to adapt blockchain technology for are doomed to fail. That in the end it's original purpose of operating as a ledger for currency/asset exchange is viable.

Some of the ideas i had been curious about where, medical records being stored and accessed in this manner. I've heard pitches of governements trying to use it for census data, or taxation purposes. On top of the original file size it would need to have the option to update/ad further information creating larger file sizes.

Is the only possible workaround for these projects to have the Data encrypted or stored separately, and have the blockchain and it's respective ledger work as a Key in the access/decryption of that information.

Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!