State of Florida attacks Bitcoin

[Desmond.Paris]

First, read the articles at these links:

http://www.morningnewsusa.com/three-bitcoin-traders-arrested-in-florida-238060.html

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-three-arrested-in-florida-over-bitcoin-money-laundering-charges-1960172

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390782/three-bitcoin-traders-arrested-in-florida-on-money-laundering-charges

Summary of those links is that the in Florida, the state decided to go after some localbitcoin traders for money laundering after setting up a live in person exchange.

Bitcoin is not cocaine. Bitcoin is not crack. It is not cannabis. It is not stolen guns with the serial numbers filed off.

There are a variety of forces that fear technology they do not understand.
There are a variety of forces that fear any technology that breakdowns international borders and barriers.

We, the people who support bitcoin, need to come out in the defense of the guys who were arrested in Florida and support bitcoin.

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[BTCisthefuture]

Entrapment has been and always will be a common tactic amongst law enforcement in America.

If they know people wan't prostitutes they will set up fake prostitution stings , if they know people want drugs they will have undercovers selling drugs, if they know people want to launder their illegally gained funds they will set up sting ops that would attract those type of people.

I don't think this is an attack on bitcoin so much,  just another example of police going undercover and offering illegal things/services and then see who bites.

[BlueNote]

Entrapment has been and always will be a common tactic amongst law enforcement in America.

If they know people wan't prostitutes they will set up fake prostitution stings , if they know people want drugs they will have undercovers selling drugs, if they know people want to launder their illegally gained funds they will set up sting ops that would attract those type of people.

I don't think this is an attack on bitcoin so much,  just another example of police going undercover and offering illegal things/services and then see who bites.

What "illegal things" were offered by the undercover lawn enforcement orificer to the bitcoin seller? It was just an exchange of bitcoin for dollars. It's clearly just another case of flat out persecution. The only criminals here are the costumed thugs who kidnapped these men at gunpoint and locked them in cages for absolutely no justifiable reason. Those men harmed no one. There is no victim here. There is no loss and no injury and no fraud. Therefore, there is no crime.

[BADecker]

Florida is an ideal pro-dollars state. The reason is, it has lots of retirees who are on Social Security. Retire to Florida the saying used to be. And that's what thousands of elderly people have done.

The state has been living off the money those retirees spend, and neither the retirees or the state want anything to do with a form of trade that could destroy money and their way of life.

Think of it. If Bitcoin became popular, and people started using it in place of money in a big way, we could actually see a collapse of the money system. That would mean the collapse of both the resources for the retired elderly, and the state as well.

While this will not likely happen for some time, Florida is having nothing to do with it. They are "nipping it in the bud" so to speak, and trying to earn some free money off the accused, who probably won't get their money back even if the charges are dropped.

[russokai]

First, read the articles at these links:

http://www.morningnewsusa.com/three-bitcoin-traders-arrested-in-florida-238060.html

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-three-arrested-in-florida-over-bitcoin-money-laundering-charges-1960172

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390782/three-bitcoin-traders-arrested-in-florida-on-money-laundering-charges

Summary of those links is that the in Florida, the state decided to go after some localbitcoin traders for money laundering after setting up a live in person exchange.

Bitcoin is not cocaine. Bitcoin is not crack. It is not cannabis. It is not stolen guns with the serial numbers filed off.

There are a variety of forces that fear technology they do not understand.
There are a variety of forces that fear any technology that breakdowns international borders and barriers.

We, the people who support bitcoin, need to come out in the defense of the guys who were arrested in Florida and support bitcoin.

Yes they fear it and they have good reason to.

Don't expect the Powers That Be to go down without a fight.  And they will fight dirty, and they will probably win for the most part, but just keep your head down and try not to get busted like these dudes were, when doing nothing wrong.

[corebob]

Incompetent politicians and law enforcement always end up blaming the messenger.
Thats why I think bitcoin should have kept a low profile all along.

[darkmule]

I wouldn't jump to conclusions from the sparse facts in these news stories.  I'd like to see the actual complaints.  The media often gets things completely wrong.  One story, for instance, claims they're using the state equivalent of the statute used on Charlie Shrem, but doesn't actually say which statute (there are two charges in that complaint) or what part of it, or what they're actually alleging other than that people sold Bitcoin.

[BTCisthefuture]

Entrapment has been and always will be a common tactic amongst law enforcement in America.

If they know people wan't prostitutes they will set up fake prostitution stings , if they know people want drugs they will have undercovers selling drugs, if they know people want to launder their illegally gained funds they will set up sting ops that would attract those type of people.

I don't think this is an attack on bitcoin so much,  just another example of police going undercover and offering illegal things/services and then see who bites.

What "illegal things" were offered by the undercover lawn enforcement orificer to the bitcoin seller? It was just an exchange of bitcoin for dollars. It's clearly just another case of flat out persecution. The only criminals here are the costumed thugs who kidnapped these men at gunpoint and locked them in cages for absolutely no justifiable reason. Those men harmed no one. There is no victim here. There is no loss and no injury and no fraud. Therefore, there is no crime.

You missed a key part of the story where the undercover agent told the bitcoin seller that he was going to use the bitcoins to purchase stolen credit card information.  Thats the key part in this case, and probably the only reason an arrest was/could be made.  It's one thing to exchange bitcoins for cash, it's another thing to do it when the buyer specifically tells you he intends to use the bitcoins for illegal reasons and you STILL go through with the trade.

"According to court documents, the agent told Michelhack that he wanted to use the Bitcoins to purchase stolen credit cards online. "
http://krebsonsecurity.com/2014/02/florida-targets-high-dollar-bitcoin-exchangers/


Like I said earlier, it's a legal form of entrapment and it's something law enforcements do for all sorts of illegal things.  The issue here isn't so much bitcoin , but selling bitcoin to someone who told you they would be used for a crime.

[BADecker]

Entrapment has been and always will be a common tactic amongst law enforcement in America.

If they know people wan't prostitutes they will set up fake prostitution stings , if they know people want drugs they will have undercovers selling drugs, if they know people want to launder their illegally gained funds they will set up sting ops that would attract those type of people.

I don't think this is an attack on bitcoin so much,  just another example of police going undercover and offering illegal things/services and then see who bites.

What "illegal things" were offered by the undercover lawn enforcement orificer to the bitcoin seller? It was just an exchange of bitcoin for dollars. It's clearly just another case of flat out persecution. The only criminals here are the costumed thugs who kidnapped these men at gunpoint and locked them in cages for absolutely no justifiable reason. Those men harmed no one. There is no victim here. There is no loss and no injury and no fraud. Therefore, there is no crime.

You missed a key part of the story where the undercover agent told the bitcoin seller that he was going to use the bitcoins to purchase stolen credit card information.  Thats the key part in this case, and probably the only reason an arrest was/could be made.  It's one thing to exchange bitcoins for cash, it's another thing to do it when the buyer specifically tells you he intends to use the bitcoins for illegal reasons and you STILL go through with the trade.

"According to court documents, the agent told Michelhack that he wanted to use the Bitcoins to purchase stolen credit cards online. "
http://krebsonsecurity.com/2014/02/florida-targets-high-dollar-bitcoin-exchangers/


Like I said earlier, it's a legal form of entrapment and it's something law enforcements do for all sorts of illegal things.  The issue here isn't so much bitcoin , but selling bitcoin to someone who told you they would be used for a crime.

The REAL question for us is, of course, is crime still crime if it is legal crime?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456023.msg5042254#msg5042254

[EchoingUprise]

Florida is an ideal pro-dollars state. The reason is, it has lots of retirees who are on Social Security. Retire to Florida the saying used to be. And that's what thousands of elderly people have done.

The state has been living off the money those retirees spend, and neither the retirees or the state want anything to do with a form of trade that could destroy money and their way of life.

Think of it. If Bitcoin became popular, and people started using it in place of money in a big way, we could actually see a collapse of the money system. That would mean the collapse of both the resources for the retired elderly, and the state as well.

While this will not likely happen for some time, Florida is having nothing to do with it. They are "nipping it in the bud" so to speak, and trying to earn some free money off the accused, who probably won't get their money back even if the charges are dropped.

I think your logic is a bit off, even if Florida is truly anti-bitcoin. If Bitcoin became popular, it would still be spent just like money and sales tax would still be collected at the retail level, so Florida would not make any less of their revenue. Only case where Florida would not make revenue, is if laws came down that said Bitcoin is treated as a commodity and therefore when you bought something with it, it would be more so considered a trade of one good for another and no sales tax would be collected in that case (I believe).

[DeathAndTaxes]

I wouldn't jump to conclusions from the sparse facts in these news stories.  I'd like to see the actual complaints.  The media often gets things completely wrong.  One story, for instance, claims they're using the state equivalent of the statute used on Charlie Shrem, but doesn't actually say which statute (there are two charges in that complaint) or what part of it, or what they're actually alleging other than that people sold Bitcoin.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

[BADecker]

Florida is an ideal pro-dollars state. The reason is, it has lots of retirees who are on Social Security. Retire to Florida the saying used to be. And that's what thousands of elderly people have done.

The state has been living off the money those retirees spend, and neither the retirees or the state want anything to do with a form of trade that could destroy money and their way of life.

Think of it. If Bitcoin became popular, and people started using it in place of money in a big way, we could actually see a collapse of the money system. That would mean the collapse of both the resources for the retired elderly, and the state as well.

While this will not likely happen for some time, Florida is having nothing to do with it. They are "nipping it in the bud" so to speak, and trying to earn some free money off the accused, who probably won't get their money back even if the charges are dropped.

I think your logic is a bit off, even if Florida is truly anti-bitcoin. If Bitcoin became popular, it would still be spent just like money and sales tax would still be collected at the retail level, so Florida would not make any less of their revenue. Only case where Florida would not make revenue, is if laws came down that said Bitcoin is treated as a commodity and therefore when you bought something with it, it would be more so considered a trade of one good for another and no sales tax would be collected in that case (I believe).

What you say is true. However, the use of Bitcoin, being decentralized, would cause such an increase of hard-to-track under-the-table activity, that if it were in widespread use, Bitcoin could change the whole appearance of money movement and trading. It might even cause the PEOPLE to review how they are being misrepresented by all the government officials, none of which obeys his/her oath of office. Nobody who is satisfied with things the way they are wants that.

[BADecker]

I wouldn't jump to conclusions from the sparse facts in these news stories.  I'd like to see the actual complaints.  The media often gets things completely wrong.  One story, for instance, claims they're using the state equivalent of the statute used on Charlie Shrem, but doesn't actually say which statute (there are two charges in that complaint) or what part of it, or what they're actually alleging other than that people sold Bitcoin.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

Let's not jump to conclusions. But let's also examine a whole bunch of things going on behind the scenes. Government doesn't want to make any more ripples - and certainly no waves - in the thinking of the people than they have to.

When you look at how fast Bitcoin has come into somewhat popular use, you can see that anything that government does regarding it will start to cause a stir. And this is good. Government needs to be examined with a microscope. Why? Because if government were good, if money were acting rightly for people, Bitcoin wouldn't have become as popular as it has as fast as it has.

[MicroGuy]

You missed a key part of the story where the undercover agent told the bitcoin seller that he was going to use the bitcoins to purchase stolen credit card information.  That's the key part in this case, and probably the only reason an arrest was/could be made.

This is an interesting point and one that I missed the first time I read the story.

[Perspicacity]

You missed a key part of the story where the undercover agent told the bitcoin seller that he was going to use the bitcoins to purchase stolen credit card information.  That's the key part in this case, and probably the only reason an arrest was/could be made.

This is an interesting point and one that I missed the first time I read the story.

Well, ok, but so what?  If I go to a hardware store and tell the clerk that I'm buying this drill bit so that I can drill holes in my neighbor's tires, is the clerk somehow criminally responsible for selling me the drill bit?  The clerk sold me a tool, and how I use it is my responsibility, not his.

I'm going to love watching how the State of Florida tries to base a prosecution on this nonsense.

But yes, I know...we're talking about Florida...Nick Navarro still working there?  ;o)

[DannyHamilton]

If I go to a hardware store and tell the clerk that I'm buying this drill bit so that I can drill holes in my neighbor's tires, is the clerk somehow criminally responsible for selling me the drill bit?

If the clerk knows/believes that you are actually planning on using the drill bit to commit a crime? Then yes.

[jongameson]

If I go to a hardware store and tell the clerk that I'm buying this drill bit so that I can drill holes in my neighbor's tires, is the clerk somehow criminally responsible for selling me the drill bit?

If the clerk knows/believes that you are actually planning on using the drill bit to commit a crime? Then yes.

make crimes illegal and people will stop doing that

[shawshankinmate37927]

I wouldn't jump to conclusions from the sparse facts in these news stories.  I'd like to see the actual complaints.  The media often gets things completely wrong.  One story, for instance, claims they're using the state equivalent of the statute used on Charlie Shrem, but doesn't actually say which statute (there are two charges in that complaint) or what part of it, or what they're actually alleging other than that people sold Bitcoin.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808113/Def-Espinoza

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205808118/Def-Reid

"MICHELHACK'S PHONE NUMBER WAS INCLUDED IN THE POSTING BUT REDACTED IN THIS AFFIDAVIT."

But then they fail to redact his address and phone number from the first page of the affidavit.  How nice.

[leopard2]

Those men harmed no one. There is no victim here. There is no loss and no injury and no fraud. Therefore, there is no crime.

If the law worked like that we would be in paradise and 90% of the henchmen jobless.  

[DrBitcoin]

Crazy stuff.  Attack what is new. BTC