Refund of Donations

[SaltySpitoon]

(...)

TL;DR

No matter what you say, the case is pretty clear: donations were collected and not used for the intended purpose.

List what donations have been used on. Hopefully short enough for you.

[augustocroppo]

I am a Lawyer, and you can be sure that theymos DOES NOT have the OBLIGATION to prove on what he have spent DONATIONS he received without any kind of agreement (digital or paper).

And now is really the end of this history.

d00d, here this means almost nothing. Anyone can present itself as lawyer. This argument from authority is just bullshit. If you think non-profit entities do not have any obligation to prove how their spend funds you are delusional.

[augustocroppo]

(...)

TL;DR

No matter what you say, the case is pretty clear: donations were collected and not used for the intended purpose.

List what donations have been used on. Hopefully short enough for you.

List? What list?

Most likely the donations where not spent at all. I am sure the costs to run the forum has been covered by advertisement revenue.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I am a Lawyer, and you can be sure that theymos DOES NOT have the OBLIGATION to prove on what he have spent DONATIONS he received without any kind of agreement (digital or paper).

So verbal agreements are never binding.  I think that omission speaks well to your "lawyer" credentials.  Also isn't it unethical to provide legal counsel without a lawyer, client agreement?

[SaltySpitoon]

List? What list?

Most likely the donations where not spent at all. I am sure the costs to run the forum has been covered by advertisement revenue.

(...)

TL;DR

No matter what you say, the case is pretty clear: donations were collected and not used for the intended purpose.

What is your example of the donations not being used for their intended purpose?

[augustocroppo]

List? What list?

Most likely the donations where not spent at all. I am sure the costs to run the forum has been covered by advertisement revenue.

(...)

TL;DR

No matter what you say, the case is pretty clear: donations were collected and not used for the intended purpose.

What is your example of the donations not being used for their intended purpose?

d00d, it is sunday evening here. I am having fun and I am not in the mood to discuss "example of the donations not being used for their intended purpose".

 

I relaxing listening some drum&bass, not up to long and tedious intellectual debates that will not change the present situation.

[SaltySpitoon]

List? What list?

Most likely the donations where not spent at all. I am sure the costs to run the forum has been covered by advertisement revenue.

(...)

TL;DR

No matter what you say, the case is pretty clear: donations were collected and not used for the intended purpose.

What is your example of the donations not being used for their intended purpose?

d00d, it is sunday evening here. I am having fun and I am not in the mood to discuss "example of the donations not being used for their intended purpose".

 

I relaxing listening some drum&bass, not up to long and tedious intellectual debates that will not change the present situation.

Alright, well you can get back to me on that. Its a fairly simple question, and you have opinions which you think are valid and you aren't willing to back up. But, like I said, you are welcome to get back to me as soon as something pops into your head. I wouldn't want to interfer with your Sunday evening.

[SaltySpitoon]

I think you are asking the wrong questions. The question should be how was the money used to do what theymos said it would be used for. No one is questioning that he just the money sit for years doing nothing and neglecting his duties.

The donations are being spent on a $350,000 Forum upgrade that we are all now aware of. My point is, it is your opinion that he was neglecting his duties. There was never any explicit timeframe on when a new forum would be created. I would be a lot more upset if he spent $100,000 on new forum upgrades last year, and they sucked.

[SaltySpitoon]

Prepare to be highly disappointed in one years time.

And if what you say is true, about Theymos not being competent do to this a year ago he should have made that public knowledge before accepting donations.

I hope you are not right, but I suppose we will see. I don't have the highest expectations at the moment, but at the same time, we have very few details, so I'm mostly withholding judgement until there is more information to work with.

I didn't say Theymos wasn't competent a year ago, I was using that as an example to say that Theymos has been holding out for an opportunity at better forum software from a competant firm. Perhaps he has finally found one. There was never any promise that there would be new forum software in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2025. He just said that he was going to collect donations and place ads to collect money for hosting expenses and forum upgrades. He is now spending money on forum upgrades. Just because you disagree with his time frame choice doesn't mean he wasn't within his right both legally and morally to have waited until now for a good opportunity to get the forum upgraded.

[theymos]

I cannot conceive of any case in which I would return donations. The forum is not a bank that holds money for years before returning it (after a substantial value increase).

After the forum software project is taken care of and I'm sure that the money is really not needed, I may allow donators to assign their donation to some Bitcoin-accepting non-profit organization. If I do this, it will only be possible for a one-time period of a few months. Otherwise, donated funds would be worthless because donators could at any time remove their donations from the forum's control.

contracts do not have to be "physHical" to be valid. and no.... he has to use the money for what he said he would.

First: Where did I say that I would use all of the donated funds for any particular project? When you donated, the Donate page said something like, "Donations will mostly be used for forum software development." The Donate topic made no mention of forum software. At various points I said things like "I intend to get forum software created soon," which was true at the time, but I never said that I definitely would do it soon.

Second: I am using the money for forum software development, so your complaint is ridiculous. It is not ridiculous (though IMO incorrect) to criticize exactly how I'm spending forum money toward achieving this goal, but you donated knowing that I alone was responsible for managing donated funds without any oversight except such oversight that I create. The Donate page has always said, "Donated funds are managed by theymos."

I admit that it was never particularly my plan to wait years before spending donated funds (though my belief in Bitcoin's long-term value influenced my conservative spending), but this ended up creating loads of money for the forum, so I don't feel too bad about it.

You have a Donator section and a special icon. The details of the Donator section were never specified. In fact, I always phrased these perks like this: "If you become a Donator/VIP, then you get access to these perks." Notice that I do not promise that the perks will last forever; only that you will, for a time, receive them.

[augustocroppo]

I cannot conceive of any case in which I would return donations. The forum is not a bank that holds money for years before returning it (after a substantial value increase).

LoL.

If the forum is not a bank, why did you not spent the funds? You literally used the funds to speculate against a potential increase of the BTC value. You have been babbling about that in the last few days. You collected donations and literally behaved like a bank, but of course, only for your own gain. This is charity fraud in case you do not know. You cannot just collect donations for a cause, refuse to spend the donations for the cause, and then later babble that "the forum is not a bank that holds money for years". That is exactly what you are doing, d00d! You have been retaining the funds as speculative financial instrument to generate profits.

[augustocroppo]

After the forum software project is taken care of and I'm sure that the money is really not needed, I may allow donators to assign their donation to some Bitcoin-accepting non-profit organization. If I do this, it will only be possible for a one-time period of a few months. Otherwise, donated funds would be worthless because donators could at any time remove their donations from the forum's control.

No, d00d, no! The remedy is to reimburse the exactly amount to every donator/VIP under request. The donations were provided to you improve the forum, not you donate money to other charities. Donation of donated funds are not going to remedy the situation.

[augustocroppo]

First: Where did I say that I would use all of the donated funds for any particular project? When you donated, the Donate page said something like, "Donations will mostly be used for forum software development." The Donate topic made no mention of forum software. At various points I said things like "I intend to get forum software created soon," which was true at the time, but I never said that I definitely would do it soon.

Second: I am using the money for forum software development, so your complaint is ridiculous. It is not ridiculous (though IMO incorrect) to criticize exactly how I'm spending forum money toward achieving this goal, but you donated knowing that I alone was responsible for managing donated funds without any oversight except such oversight that I create. The Donate page has always said, "Donated funds are managed by theymos."

I admit that it was never particularly my plan to wait years before spending donated funds (though my belief in Bitcoin's long-term value influenced my conservative spending), but this ended up creating loads of money for the forum, so I don't feel too bad about it.

You have a Donator section and a special icon. The details of the Donator section were never specified. In fact, I always phrased these perks like this: "If you become a Donator/VIP, then you get access to these perks." Notice that I do not promise that the perks will last forever; only that you will, for a time, receive them.

d00d, cut the chit chat. Where is the evidence to back up your claims?

[SaltySpitoon]

First: Where did I say that I would use all of the donated funds for any particular project? When you donated, the Donate page said something like, "Donations will mostly be used for forum software development." The Donate topic made no mention of forum software. At various points I said things like "I intend to get forum software created soon," which was true at the time, but I never said that I definitely would do it soon.

Second: I am using the money for forum software development, so your complaint is ridiculous. It is not ridiculous (though IMO incorrect) to criticize exactly how I'm spending forum money toward achieving this goal, but you donated knowing that I alone was responsible for managing donated funds without any oversight except such oversight that I create. The Donate page has always said, "Donated funds are managed by theymos."

I admit that it was never particularly my plan to wait years before spending donated funds (though my belief in Bitcoin's long-term value influenced my conservative spending), but this ended up creating loads of money for the forum, so I don't feel too bad about it.

You have a Donator section and a special icon. The details of the Donator section were never specified. In fact, I always phrased these perks like this: "If you become a Donator/VIP, then you get access to these perks." Notice that I do not promise that the perks will last forever; only that you will, for a time, receive them.

d00d, cut the chit chat. Where is the evidence to back up your claims.

*Cough cough* keep in mind Theymos gave the donator's section a bit of information that was a piece of the whole that was to be made public on Monday. I'd assume you will get your evidence on Monday.

How is your evening?

[augustocroppo]

*Cough cough* keep in mind Theymos gave the donator's section a bit of information that was a piece of the whole that was to be made public on Monday. I'd assume you will get your evidence on Monday.

How is your evening?

It is fine, thank you for the interest.

[User705]

Why not allow the sale and transfer of Donator / VIP tags so people who are dissatisfied can sell them?

[augustocroppo]

Why not allow the sale and transfer of Donator / VIP tags so people who are dissatisfied can sell them?

You mean sell the account? Fine, I do for 50 BTC for you. Deal?

[User705]

Why not allow the sale and transfer of Donator / VIP tags so people who are dissatisfied can sell them?

You mean sell the account? Fine, I do for 50 BTC for you. Deal?

No.  How much was 50BTC worth when you donated it?  I might be willing to pay that amount or maybe more then that to give you a nice profit.

[augustocroppo]

Why not allow the sale and transfer of Donator / VIP tags so people who are dissatisfied can sell them?

You mean sell the account? Fine, I do for 50 BTC for you. Deal?

No.  How much was 50BTC worth when you donated it?

It worth 50 BTC. Deal?

[User705]

Why not allow the sale and transfer of Donator / VIP tags so people who are dissatisfied can sell them?

You mean sell the account? Fine, I do for 50 BTC for you. Deal?

No.  How much was 50BTC worth when you donated it?

It worth 50 BTC. Deal?

Already answered that.  Nice redirect btw.  Clearly this has nothing to do with XBT being worth much more now.  It's obvious it's just the principles of truth and justice for you here.