Refund of Donations

[augustocroppo]

Arrogance, hypocrisy and deception.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x0e28/request_for_information_for_lawsuit_against/

[danyy]

The hipocrisy comes from other way too
. Now that the btc is worth 100x more you all want your donations back.. you are so greddy....  im nothing related to admins on this forums but im surprised to see this.. you paid 50 btcs or around, to only have a coloured custom title saying vip and thats all. End of history

[augustocroppo]

The hipocrisy comes from other way too
. Now that the btc is worth 100x more you all want your donations back.. you are so greddy....  im nothing related to admins on this forums but im surprised to see this.. you paid 50 btcs or around, to only have a coloured custom title saying vip and thats all. End of history

I am sure you cannot comprehend what are you talking about.

[danyy]

I understand that can be bad if you dond even got a subforum for that money but dont you could have made an agreement for that before the donation?? This is like if i open a lawsuit against the church of my town claiming all the donations i have made

[danyy]

The hipocrisy comes from other way too
. Now that the btc is worth 100x more you all want your donations back.. you are so greddy....  im nothing related to admins on this forums but im surprised to see this.. you paid 50 btcs or around, to only have a coloured custom title saying vip and thats all. End of history

I am sure you cannot comprehend what are you talking about.

Oh yeah you try to make this complex but this isnt.. i said all i had to say. Bye and good luck in your fight

[augustocroppo]

I understand that can be bad if you dond even got a subforum for that money but dont you could have made an agreement for that before the donation?? This is like if i open a lawsuit against the church of my town claiming all the donations i have made

It is your right to file a lawsuit against the church of your town if you think the church has been misusing the collected donations. This fall under charity fraud laws. If your church collects donations under the implied agreement to help the poor, they cannot just hold the collected amount to speculate in the financial markets. That was not the intended purpose of the donation and that is certainly not a charitable course of action. Moreover, churches are recognized as non-profit entities, so they cannot use the collected funds to generate profit.

[SaltySpitoon]

Donator's section is there, but it may not be what you expected

and the fact that this thread exist obviously means that funds are being spent on new forum software. While you may disagree with parts of those features, you cannot dispute that A. There is a donators subforum and B. Money is being spent on new forum software.

That sub forum is not what he sold us and you know it. Quit trolling. Also doing so years after the fact is negligence. There really is a valid claim for fraud here. Pretending there is not is just silly.

Am I going to sue theymos? No. But you saying his actions have been outstanding is retarded.

I removed my post as it was off topic, hoping no one would get a chance to respond to it. If we want to discuss this further, we can do it elsewhere. Just because you don't agree with me, I'm not "trolling" I just happen to be of another opinion. Saying that Donations haven't been used for what they said they would be for isn't true, people just had different expectations. Theymos didn't say, we will have new forum software on X date, he just said the money would be used for new forum software. Its been sitting unused until now, so I do believe that fulfils his obligation. The question now, is whether he spent those funds unwisely, which we hope he has not, and wont know until he addresses more questions.

[danyy]

theymos created this forum since 2009 or first quarter of 2010, when nobody believed in bitcoin and he probably spent some real cash and TIME in something that for that date could have be a total waste of resources, and now thanks to this forum many people, including me, have know more about bitcoin. probably thanks to this forum you have a part of what you have now.

[augustocroppo]

Donator's section is there, but it may not be what you expected

and the fact that this thread exist obviously means that funds are being spent on new forum software. While you may disagree with parts of those features, you cannot dispute that A. There is a donators subforum and B. Money is being spent on new forum software.

That sub forum is not what he sold us and you know it. Quit trolling. Also doing so years after the fact is negligence. There really is a valid claim for fraud here. Pretending there is not is just silly.

Am I going to sue theymos? No. But you saying his actions have been outstanding is retarded.

LoL, the d00d most likely erased his post in regret.

[augustocroppo]

theymos created this forum since 2009 or first quarter of 2010, when nobody believed in bitcoin and he probably spent some real cash and TIME in something that for that date could have be a total waste of resources, and now thanks to this forum many people, including me, have know more about bitcoin. probably thanks to this forum you have a part of what you have now.

...and thanks to what was not improved in the forum I do not have what should be part of what I have now.

[SaltySpitoon]

LoL, the d00d most likely erased his post in regret.

*Sigh* no, I erased my post to avoid this, not that it matters anyway as the last half of this thread will most likely be split from this topic now. I'll wait for someone else to do it however, I don't like messing with Meta threads, especially ones I'm involved in.

If you would like me to explain why you are wrong, you can pm me about it.

[danyy]

theymos created this forum since 2009 or first quarter of 2010, when nobody believed in bitcoin and he probably spent some real cash and TIME in something that for that date could have be a total waste of resources, and now thanks to this forum many people, including me, have know more about bitcoin. probably thanks to this forum you have a part of what you have now.

...and thanks to what was not improved in the forum I do not have what should be part of what I am now.

In the court you must have with you REAL and past facts, imaginary things wont gonna help you.

[augustocroppo]

LoL, the d00d most likely erased his post in regret.

*Sigh* no, I erased my post to avoid this, not that it matters anyway as the last half of this thread will most likely be split from this topic now. I'll wait for Theymos to do it however, I don't like messing with Meta threads.

If you would like me to explain why you are wrong, you can pm me about it.

d00d, this is called regret. Nice try, anyway. Here!, one more post to keep you busy.

[SaltySpitoon]

LoL, the d00d most likely erased his post in regret.

*Sigh* no, I erased my post to avoid this, not that it matters anyway as the last half of this thread will most likely be split from this topic now. I'll wait for Theymos to do it however, I don't like messing with Meta threads.

If you would like me to explain why you are wrong, you can pm me about it.

d00d, this is called regret. Nice try, anyway. Here!, one more post to keep you busy.

I was given the Ok to split the topic, so now that it is not going off topic, I can now post what I wanted to originally, going back to your church example.

I understand that can be bad if you dond even got a subforum for that money but dont you could have made an agreement for that before the donation?? This is like if i open a lawsuit against the church of my town claiming all the donations i have made

It is your right to file a lawsuit against the church of your town if you think the church has been misusing the collected donations. This fall under charity fraud laws. If your church collects donations under the implied agreement to help the poor, they cannot just hold the collected amount to speculate in the financial markets. That was not the intended purpose of the donation and that is certainly not a charitable course of action. Moreover, churches are recognized as non-profit entities, so they cannot use the collected funds to generate profit.

It is more like a church using donations for people who you do not agree with. The straight facts are A. You do have a Donators section, any side expectations are not Theymos' obligation. The existance of a Donator's forum fulfils that. And B. the funds would be spent on forum upgrades. The Donated Bitcoins have not been used for anything besides forum upgrades which you cannot deny. There was no agreement clause stating that Theymos had X amount of time to spend the donations or you would be entitled to them back. The coins sat until they were used for the promised purpose, you do not have the ability to say, well it wasn't done in the time I had expected, so I am entitled to a refund.

One of Goat's questions in the other thread that this was split from, is will donations be refunded? Well, maybe since the forums has enough ad revenue to support itself now, but there is no legal entitlement to a refund.

Please let me know if you think the title of the thread is appropriate, I figured that was the central issue here, but if you think of a more suitable one, it can be changed.

[SaltySpitoon]

One of Goat's questions in the other thread that this was split from, is will donations be refunded? Well, maybe since the forums has enough ad revenue to support itself now, but there is no legal entitlement to a refund.

Legal, not so sure that is black or white. Morally it is pretty black and white.

These potential refunds, this is your idea or something Theymos is thinking about doing?

No, I was referencing your original questions to Theymos, I have no idea what he is considering, but I'd imagine he will answer the questions you and others provided in the other thread when he said he will.

To make sure that I cover everything on Monday: What things exactly do you want explained?

Thank you theymos for asking this question. This suggests to me that you are interested in bringing transparency to this issue. Below is a list of question that I and a few of my friends would like answered. I do hope that others will post their questions in the thread as well so we can resolve this as much as we can on Monday.



Who is the owner of the forum?

Who is the owner of the BTC collected by the forum?

Is bitcointalk a registered not for profit?

Why do you think we needed to spend so much for software when there are free or much cheaper option available?

What special features will the forum have?

The $350,000 was just a down payment or the full amount owed? If it is not the full amount how much more could this end up costing us?

When will the software be finished?

I know you like to claim that you invested the money well and thus created more wealth for the forum, but did you not just neglect your duties and force us to use this software despite our donating more than enough to accomplish our goals? Let me point out that the forum was hacked after the time we should have had this resolved and lots of our data could have been stolen. Is our privacy worthless?

Can you tell us about the decision making process and who you consulted with to use this firm Slickage? If this was a unilateral decision why did you think it would be good to spend at least $350,000 with out telling anyone?

How are you sure Wangbus is able to accomplish this task? Have you seen any work that he is done, and if so can that work be made public?

Why does his company not have a website? Has he ever done any projects before?

Do you have a legal contract with Wangbus and if you do would you be willing to make it public?

Are you getting a kick back from this operation or do you hold any interest in his company?

Because of the cost of this software how much taxes will you be paying the US Govt?

It has been clear that the forum was able to bring in more than enough money by selling adds. Since you did not use our donations in a timely fashion would you be willing to refund us our money? If not please tell us why.

If you will not refund out money will you let us donate it to a charity of our pick? If not why?

If you will demand to keep all of the fund what will you use them for? Do you see this as your personal money?

Would you be willing to set up a non profit to distribute the funds of the forum in two directions, one supporting the BTC community by helping start ups and the other to charity work that is promoting BTC?

Did slickage accept BTC or fiat? Can we see the transaction in the blockchain?



From malevolent

1) Was the $350k paid in advance or is it going to be paid in smaller chunks as progress on the new forum is being made?

2) Could you outline/clarify your responsibilities and obligations regarding the management of the forum funds so that there are no doubts about it?
3) Any plans for implementing some sort of a 2FA in the new forum? (this is especially important for people conducting trades over the forum)

4) What do you think about creating new boards or subdomains for altcoins for a recurring (monthly or quarterly) fee? They could even be excluded from the main forum's statistics, and have their own rules and policies (only retaining a few obvious such as no linking to SR-type onion sites or no trades of goods which are illegal in the buyer's or in the seller's country).



Off topic, as a person what other interests do you have in real life.

Thank you and I look forward to these answers.

[danyy]

One of Goat's questions in the other thread that this was split from, is will donations be refunded? Well, maybe since the forums has enough ad revenue to support itself now, but there is no legal entitlement to a refund.

Legal, not so sure that is black or white. Morally it is pretty black and white.

These potential refunds, this is your idea or something Theymos is thinking about doing?

Exactly, you dont have a physhical agreement or a contract , and because of that, theymos could have spent the bitcoins on wahtever he wanted on the forum.

[SaltySpitoon]

One of Goat's questions in the other thread that this was split from, is will donations be refunded? Well, maybe since the forums has enough ad revenue to support itself now, but there is no legal entitlement to a refund.

Legal, not so sure that is black or white. Morally it is pretty black and white.

These potential refunds, this is your idea or something Theymos is thinking about doing?

Exactly, you dont have a physhical agreement or a contract , and because of that, theymos could have spent the bitcoins on wahtever he wanted on the forum.

If I am correct, Goat is under the impression that Theymos SHOULD return the donations, as a moral obligation as he stated in the post above. Agusto is under the assumption he HAS TO return the donations.

[danyy]

I am a Lawyer, and you can be sure that theymos DOES NOT have the OBLIGATION to prove on what he have spent DONATIONS he received without any kind of agreement (digital or paper).

And now is really the end of this history.

[SaltySpitoon]

contracts do not have to be "physHical" to be valid. and no.... he has to use the money for what he said he would.

taking donations and speeding it on hookers and blow would not be legal. this would be called fraud.

I am indeed aware of this, techically, Theymos' only verbal contract was that donator's money would be used on forum upgrades. Donations were indeed not spent on anything except forum upgrades which you might consider overdue, but that should be irrelevant legally and morally. I know your hookers and blow example wasn't literal, but the funds were not spent on hookers, blow, personal expenses, etc.

I cannot give my opinion as to whether Theymos is morally obligated to refund donations, as morals are very variable from person to person. I can only respond to legally liable to refund donations, of which he is not. Will he refund donations, I have no idea, I'm assuming he will address it as well as your and other's other questions. I don't blame him for not discussing his possible ideas with anyone, as they seem to get leaked ASAP.

I am a Lawyer, and you can be sure that theymos DOES NOT have the OBLIGATION to prove on what he have spent DONATIONS he received without any kind of agreement (digital or paper).

And now is really the end of this history.

Regardless of if that is true or not, which pretty heavily relies on how the forum is registered (I don't want to disclose any details because I'm not personally sure) he has proved what the donations he recieved have been spent on. That comes in the form of donation money not leaving the forum's funds for the last two years, and the impending announcement of new forum software. Had he not told anyone about any of it until Monday when he said he would release the info to the public, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[augustocroppo]

(...)

TL;DR

No matter what you say, the case is pretty clear: donations were collected and not used for the intended purpose.