Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind

[Isildur23]

Mining is still possible - for coins built on top of Nxt. As far as i know Come-from-Beyond is actually almost ready with such a coin. (Lakshmi)

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[Come-from-Beyond]

Or am I getting this completely wrong, c-f-b? I know you explained this somewhere before, but I'll be honest, I did not understand it

Instant transactions work only for usual payments.

[Damelon]

I can't imagine why somebody who is selling t-shirts or anything else should be forger and nobody else.

I like the idea forging as business. But still don't undestrand why average person buying a 100000 NXT will not be able to forge.

Mining made bitcoin so famous, because people can do something for the idea at home and earn real money.

What I'm missing?

Mining reward is another obsolete part. True reward for supporting Nxt network comes from services that use Nxt. Someone owns a currency exchange and mine blocks to keep his business running. Another one owns a shop and mine blocks to keep his business running. The 3rd person owns a software company that develops programs for Nxt-based services and mine blocks to keep his business running. Selfish miners (those who mine only to earn fees) should be "removed" from the system, they r not interested in success of Nxt and only want to cash-out. If a clone appears such the people will likely jump to another ship, they add very little value to Nxt. All this doesn't mean that we should get rid of fees completely, we still need them as a countermeasure against spamming.

I like the idea, but then, I always liked the idea of "something for something".

@marek3ball: as far as I see, there is nothing stopping anyone from forging and nothing else. It will just be unprofitable compared to forging and offering services. I could set up my shop and reduce or eliminate the running costs by being able to run my shop by using my forging gains to pay for servers etc. I and many with me would like that.

As BCNext says, there still will be systems (if this gets implemented you can bet on it!) that will let you forge and just do nothing. It's that BCNext's vision for Nxt is that it won't do that. Someone will come along to clone Nxt and attract the "selfish" forgers who want to get rich by basically running a program. That isn't bad in itself, but it could be much better.

There are many people who would be willing to get in on it, so the system will filter out users by itself. Market: pure and simple.

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.

Nothing in here says Nxt (tokens) will have no value. Their value lies in the "privileges". That makes them a valued possession. Nxt (tokens) are the basis of the system and as such will be in demand. Anything else just refers to them. Their ultimate value is in the fact that they enable the use of (or more of) the Nxt ecology. I see no problems in their value. As such they would resemble red blood cells that are essential to the operation of the living body, whatever that body does.

My 2 Nxt (or whatever equivalent you prefer)

[mthcl]

Mining reward is another obsolete part. True reward for supporting Nxt network comes from services that use Nxt. Someone owns a currency exchange and mine blocks to keep his business running. Another one owns a shop and mine blocks to keep his business running. The 3rd person owns a software company that develops programs for Nxt-based services and mine blocks to keep his business running. Selfish miners (those who mine only to earn fees) should be "removed" from the system, they r not interested in success of Nxt and only want to cash-out. If a clone appears such the people will likely jump to another ship, they add very little value to Nxt. All this doesn't mean that we should get rid of fees completely, we still need them as a countermeasure against spamming.

I like the idea, but then, I always liked the idea of "something for something".

+1

Like it or not, most people are selfish. These words from BCNext mostly apply to some ideal world, not ours. IMHO.

[marek3ball]

I like the idea forging as business. But still don't undestrand why average person buying a 100000 NXT will not be able to forge.

Mining made bitcoin so famous, because people can do something for the idea at home and earn real money.

What I'm missing?

Maybe you're missing the fact there's many things you can do for the idea at home and earn value. Promotion, development, trading, third party services, etc.

It's important to start changing the mining=forging mentality, and the mining paradigm itself. It will be obsolete soon. The real new paradigm for adoption should rather be something like proof of learning, while proof of stake is a way of securing the network, not an easy buck.

Thank you for very interesting link to the proof of learning. As you can see I'm working a lot to help promote Nxt in the way I know. I would be very happy in case I could be payed by the system for my renderings.

It is Nxt in some way transforming to the POL - proof of learning system? It could be great too. Then we should stop promoting Nxt's forging on the boat in pacific with mobile phone.

I like all yours high level ideas. We shouldn't forget about average people newly interested about Nxt.

[Damelon]

Mining reward is another obsolete part. True reward for supporting Nxt network comes from services that use Nxt. Someone owns a currency exchange and mine blocks to keep his business running. Another one owns a shop and mine blocks to keep his business running. The 3rd person owns a software company that develops programs for Nxt-based services and mine blocks to keep his business running. Selfish miners (those who mine only to earn fees) should be "removed" from the system, they r not interested in success of Nxt and only want to cash-out. If a clone appears such the people will likely jump to another ship, they add very little value to Nxt. All this doesn't mean that we should get rid of fees completely, we still need them as a countermeasure against spamming.

I like the idea, but then, I always liked the idea of "something for something".

+1

Like it or not, most people are selfish. These words from BCNext mostly apply to some ideal world, not ours. IMHO.

But BCNext explicitly states that clones will fix that problem, which they will. There will be room for clones that will reward the forgers who just want to forge, because there are people who want to do just that. This is what I like about the evolving world of the cryptos. The clone won't be bad, it will cater to a different niche. I say good luck to them and will mean it.

But, I am trader and merchant enough to see loads of interesting opportunities for people like me, who want to carve out a niche in Nxt, too

The upshot it also that if Nxt doesn't do this, probably someone else will make a clone who does it.

[bitcoinpaul]

Q1) When BCNext says "issued in quantities to keep their value constant", would issuing NXT Assets in fixed denominations like 1 BTC, 1 USD, etc. satisfy this? I want to fully understand what is being said and this is tricky especially if second hand and different language.

Q2) I think adding support to NXT so that it is able to see or even issue offchain transactions is the only way to extend transparency beyond NXT blockchain. Is there a way simpler than using indistinguishability obfuscator that can be used to trust offchain results from peers? Would carefully designing matched pairs of subroutines to 1) invoke and 2) verify offchain actions be adequate to create trustable transactions despite Evil Bob's best efforts?

Q3) In general, am I on the right track with NXTlayers, NXTplugins, crosschain transactions, automated gateways, NXTcash, blockchain FIFO, etc?

I'm interested in the answers.

[pandaisftw]

I can't imagine why somebody who is selling t-shirts or anything else should be forger and nobody else.

I like the idea forging as business. But still don't undestrand why average person buying a 100000 NXT will not be able to forge.

Mining made bitcoin so famous, because people can do something for the idea at home and earn real money.

What I'm missing?

I think "self-less" (not forging for profit) forging is great in many aspects:

1) Encourages people who run businesses to forge. These people actually contribute to the ecosystem. This aligns being productive with keeping the network secure.
2) PoW mining is "popular" because it is extremely selfish. Bitcoin was designed so that this selfish desire is aligned with securing the network, but I'd wager most miners could care less about bitcoin as long as they are making money. Also, since the introduction of PoS, PoW is completely obsolete (besides running turing-complete scripts, but that still works better in a PoS system where there are a lot of free computer resources).
3) You can forge with 100000 NXT, something like 1 block every 2 days? I agree that it's not profitable to do on it's own. But reading BCNext's and c-f-b posts, it is more than likely there will be coins built on-top of the NXT ecosystem. I'm sure someone will make a very profitable PoW coin.

Or am I getting this completely wrong, c-f-b? I know you explained this somewhere before, but I'll be honest, I did not understand it

Instant transactions work only for usual payments.

Ah, okay. Is this a technical limitation, or would it just be a very bad idea?

[mthcl]

Mining reward is another obsolete part. True reward for supporting Nxt network comes from services that use Nxt. Someone owns a currency exchange and mine blocks to keep his business running. Another one owns a shop and mine blocks to keep his business running. The 3rd person owns a software company that develops programs for Nxt-based services and mine blocks to keep his business running. Selfish miners (those who mine only to earn fees) should be "removed" from the system, they r not interested in success of Nxt and only want to cash-out. If a clone appears such the people will likely jump to another ship, they add very little value to Nxt. All this doesn't mean that we should get rid of fees completely, we still need them as a countermeasure against spamming.

I like the idea, but then, I always liked the idea of "something for something".

+1

Like it or not, most people are selfish. These words from BCNext mostly apply to some ideal world, not ours. IMHO.

But BCNext explicitly states that clones will fix that problem, which they will. There will be room for clones that will reward the forgers who just want to forge, because there are people who want to do just that. This is what I like about the evolving world of the cryptos. The clone won't be bad, it will cater to a different niche. I say good luck to them and will mean it.

But, I am trader and merchant enough to see loads of interesting opportunities for people like me, who want to carve out a niche in Nxt, too

The upshot it also that if Nxt doesn't do this, probably someone else will make a clone who does it.

I wanted to say that, basically, if something is not interesting for selfish people, then this something cannot become widespread, it is doomed to remain restricted to a small community. Well, I'm afraid it will not work if we say "you have to run a Nxt node for the sake of better world!"...

Also, I think that saying "there is a clone that would do what you want" is strategically not good  

[pandaisftw]

I like the idea forging as business. But still don't undestrand why average person buying a 100000 NXT will not be able to forge.

Mining made bitcoin so famous, because people can do something for the idea at home and earn real money.

What I'm missing?

Maybe you're missing the fact there's many things you can do for the idea at home and earn value. Promotion, development, trading, third party services, etc.

It's important to start changing the mining=forging mentality, and the mining paradigm itself. It will be obsolete soon. The real new paradigm for adoption should rather be something like proof of learning, while proof of stake is a way of securing the network, not an easy buck.

Thank you for very interesting link to the proof of learning. As you can see I'm working a lot to help promote Nxt in the way I know. I would be very happy in case I could be payed by the system for my renderings.

It is Nxt in some way transforming to the POL - proof of learning system? It could be great too. Then we should stop promoting Nxt's forging on the boat in pacific with mobile phone.

I like all yours high level ideas. We shouldn't forget about average people newly interested about Nxt.

I have been working on shifting our focus to bring in doers who have the talent and willpower to contribute to the NXT ecosystem. NXT is an innovator's platform, so I feel that we should be showing that side more. I am currently working with Anon136 on writing a letter, on behalf of the NXT community, that will appeal to businessmen and academics, because these are the people who will bring NXT to the top. Average users will come in time when the ecosystem is more established.

[msin]

Nxt could have a special kind of asset backed by fixed amount of NXT.

But if we aren't supposed to "trade NXT" then that wouldn't have any value then would it?

The point is that we are NOT supposed to do anything, it's up to the community how to develop Nxt further.

I think it is best for NXT to have multiple purposes.

1 - As a store of value because of it's scarcity.

2 - As an intermediate currency between IOUs issued on the asset exchange.

IMO, of all things, NXT - as the base unit - is like gold. It backs up everything in the system because everything can be traded for it, the supply is constant, and its value (within the NXT ecosystem) is guaranteed by the protocol. EDIT: Plus, it makes sense, people don't use gold as currency (anymore) but it still has huge store of value.

And holy shit, why is NXT still tied to BTC... maybe we should contact coinbase to do USD/NXT pair

I can't tell you how many times I've emailed coinbase to add Nxt.

[Damelon]

Mining reward is another obsolete part. True reward for supporting Nxt network comes from services that use Nxt. Someone owns a currency exchange and mine blocks to keep his business running. Another one owns a shop and mine blocks to keep his business running. The 3rd person owns a software company that develops programs for Nxt-based services and mine blocks to keep his business running. Selfish miners (those who mine only to earn fees) should be "removed" from the system, they r not interested in success of Nxt and only want to cash-out. If a clone appears such the people will likely jump to another ship, they add very little value to Nxt. All this doesn't mean that we should get rid of fees completely, we still need them as a countermeasure against spamming.

I like the idea, but then, I always liked the idea of "something for something".

+1

Like it or not, most people are selfish. These words from BCNext mostly apply to some ideal world, not ours. IMHO.

But BCNext explicitly states that clones will fix that problem, which they will. There will be room for clones that will reward the forgers who just want to forge, because there are people who want to do just that. This is what I like about the evolving world of the cryptos. The clone won't be bad, it will cater to a different niche. I say good luck to them and will mean it.

But, I am trader and merchant enough to see loads of interesting opportunities for people like me, who want to carve out a niche in Nxt, too

The upshot it also that if Nxt doesn't do this, probably someone else will make a clone who does it.

I wanted to say that, basically, if something is not interesting for selfish people, then this something cannot become widespread, it is doomed to remain restricted to a small community. Well, I'm afraid it will not work if we say "you have to run a Nxt node for the sake of better world!"...

Also, I think that saying "there is a clone that would do what you want" is strategically not good  

Just read the "Proof-of-Learning" article, where "learning" is a bit of a misnomer, but this is already a way of getting a huge adoption. I disagree that even with the "idealistic" setup, it will be restricted. People will play with the "rules".
If you go by the "Proof-of-Learning" model, you could still get huge returns on just running memes. 

People will find ways to monetise with the least amount of work anyway.

But I get your point. I am just trying to not let go of mine

[pandaisftw]

Nxt could have a special kind of asset backed by fixed amount of NXT.

But if we aren't supposed to "trade NXT" then that wouldn't have any value then would it?

The point is that we are NOT supposed to do anything, it's up to the community how to develop Nxt further.

I think it is best for NXT to have multiple purposes.

1 - As a store of value because of it's scarcity.

2 - As an intermediate currency between IOUs issued on the asset exchange.

IMO, of all things, NXT - as the base unit - is like gold. It backs up everything in the system because everything can be traded for it, the supply is constant, and its value (within the NXT ecosystem) is guaranteed by the protocol. EDIT: Plus, it makes sense, people don't use gold as currency (anymore) but it still has huge store of value.

And holy shit, why is NXT still tied to BTC... maybe we should contact coinbase to do USD/NXT pair

I can't tell you how many times I've emailed coinbase to add Nxt.

I really hate having to go through BTC first via coinbase, because I have to wait 4 days before I get my BTC and then transfer them into NXT. During that time, prices tend to move

Does coinbase have some kind of petition form? I'm surprised they still deal only in BTC.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Ah, okay. Is this a technical limitation, or would it just be a very bad idea?

BCNext was talking about payments only - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0

[mthcl]

Just read the "Proof-of-Learning" article, where "learning" is a bit of a misnomer, but this is already a way of getting a huge adoption. I disagree that even with the "idealistic" setup, it will be restricted. People will play with the "rules".
If you go by the "Proof-of-Learning" model, you could still get huge returns on just running memes.  

Thanks for the link! But I doubt that such a thing could really work - too many abuse possibilities...

Also, this

If say 1,000 different humans read the published content to completion, then the content now has proof-of-value. At that point the content creator gets issued 50 tokens.

would mean that (almost) all scientists (and, certainly, all mathematicians) are doomed in such a system  

[bitcoinpaul]

I have been working on shifting our focus to bring in doers who have the talent and willpower to contribute to the NXT ecosystem. NXT is an innovator's platform, so I feel that we should be showing that side more. I am currently working with Anon136 on writing a letter, on behalf of the NXT community, that will appeal to businessmen and academics, because these are the people who will bring NXT to the top. Average users will come in time when the ecosystem is more established.

+1

[msin]

I really hate having to go through BTC first via coinbase, because I have to wait 4 days before I get my BTC and then transfer them into NXT. During that time, prices tend to move

Does coinbase have some kind of petition form? I'm surprised they still deal only in BTC.

http://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/emails/new

In regards to Part 2 of Transparent Mining.  I personally think it's essential that coins are built on top of Nxt.  Otherwise, we are no different than BTC or new POS clones. We can create a huge market all of which relies on Nxt as the infrastructure.  I would also go so far as to propose that any new Nxtcoin is required to send 10000Nxt to genesis at time of creation.  Thus we are reducing supply of Nxt while adding value since Nxt would be required for creation of Nxtcoin.  All Nxtcoins would start with the same value (10k Nxt) Would also be great because individuals can fund raise Nxt in order to create a new Nxtcoin.  Nxt would become immensely valuable with that model and eventually all Nxt could be replaced with Nxtcoins.  

[sepehr]

But it is not fair!

What r u talking about? Nxt offers the most fair way.

It's more fair if we pay the transaction fees directly to server operators.

Do u think there'll be better security if forgers'll get nothing for their job? I don't think so. There'd be forgers competition for fees and best possible decision to secure network (protected public node with wide bandwidth and skilled operator cost some resourses).

Remember, forging - way to secure system. Only then, may be, business itself.

Exactly. Leave forging the way it is. Competition is good.

Can you please explain what job a forger doing other that unlocking his client and leaving the software open?
But the network is not just these nodes! the network needs servers that is now working by donation! IMHO that is not fair!
Just my opinion!

I'm personally may open a client to forge, but why should I arrange several servers/ VPS around the world to Handle the network? Just because I'm a Nxt holder? Just because donations?

That is not enough for long term plan!

[coretechs]

Owning NXT is somewhat like owning shares in a virtual public company.  The shares were issued all at once, but they happen to be coins that are traded on crypto markets, which is nice because they are accessible to anyone.  They function as both shares and as the resource used in the network itself.

The forging fees are not attractive right now as an incentive for profit because there is no real activity yet.  To me, forging fees are more of a programmatic "dividend" that is built into the shares.  You are only paid this dividend if you show up to shareholder meetings (run a client with an unlocked account)(run a node).

[sherpico77]

Same here. I,m running 3 24/7 nodes weeks ago. Motivation is not forging rewards, is Nxt and his concept.

I think that the idea of reducing the fees by a factor of 10 or 100 is likely to pretty much completely get rid of the "mining mentality" (and will increase the # of transactions made) although one does need to be careful perhaps not to do this too soon as currently the "forging reward" is one of the main factors motivating people to run nodes.

My VPS Node has been running since the DDos war and my motivation is not forging rewards....my motivation is to keep Nxt running...period.