Casascius Bitcoin POS system

[plastic.elastic]

I agree this would be OT here. Where is the thread/place to talk about this? You can't just run around discrediting other's ideas/work without be open to discuss your own on more deeply than saying: "experts are working on it".

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46366

I'll try to keep up.

How exactly do you want to convice the operators of the existing system to open up their system so you can plug-in mtgox backend?

Can you ask this again on that thread? And you'll need to clarify what you mean by "system"-- merchant side, processor side, ...?

Hey where is your Dialcoin genius?
 

[molecular]

I agree this would be OT here. Where is the thread/place to talk about this? You can't just run around discrediting other's ideas/work without be open to discuss your own on more deeply than saying: "experts are working on it".

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46366

I'll try to keep up.

How exactly do you want to convice the operators of the existing system to open up their system so you can plug-in mtgox backend?

Can you ask this again on that thread? And you'll need to clarify what you mean by "system"-- merchant side, processor side, ...?

What thread? The link you provided above is a link to _this_ thread.

[teflone]

Matthew, your rudeness and arrogance know no bounds.

The most worthwhile tip I have taken from your contribution to this thread is to make sure I never do business with DialCoin for fear of having to deal with someone like yourself.

Please start your own thread about your own POS system, in there you can abuse your fellow bitcoiners as much as you like, maybe if you call them dicks enough times they might come to their senses and bow down.

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000

I have yet to hear an idea or him actually doing something talented to help the project.  Slamming Casascius for attempting a valid POS system is not a wasted attempt,  even if it fails he'll learn what he did right and what he did wrong.

+Million

[[Tycho]]

The reader on the photo looks like a t-money PoS used in public transport and stores used throughout korea. It's based on mayfair classic smartcard

Good eye. It's T-Money used widely across Korea. I just grabbed the photo as an example. Japan uses identiical technology as well.

Similar tech is used in Hong Kong, they call it "Octopus card" and it's very convenient. Even McDonald's accepts it :)
Also, unlike usual CC POS, most merchants also offer adding funds to the card.

I like such wireless solutions, except one thing: I want there to be a button for disconnecting the card's coil so it can only be accessed when I want to, not just when it stays in my pocket.

[[Tycho]]

I like such wireless solutions, except one thing: I want there to be a button for disconnecting the card's coil so it can only be accessed when I want to, not just when it stays in my pocket.

Read up on Visa's keypad card. That pretty much is the best solution imo.

May be, but keypad cards are impossible to use with bitcoins at this moment, contrary to cheap mifare cards and equipment.

Also sadly wireless card can be used for instant payment only with the help of some online wallet service :(

[[Tycho]]

That's assuming the wallet is stored on the card. Keypad cards can work with ANY data that needs to be encrypted with a password. The encrypted data can be a password string from an exchange or e-wallet service allowing the card to be used.

You didn't get my point.

For example, with smart (encrypting, non-wireless) cards a solution for online wallet payments will cost less than $1000 including the SDK, a couple of readers and some cards. With this one can start developing and produce a complete turnkey POS.

Now, how much $$ you need to start and set up a system with that keypad card ?

[[Tycho]]

Congratulations for making it into the news :)
Looks like they think it's a new "official" firmware.

http://moneynews.ru/News/15648/

[Technomage]

Matthew N. Wright is a classic example of a geek with high level technical knowledge but non-existent social skills. The approach he uses will always cause conflict. I have a lot of experience of this from a social perspective. Respectful communication is the key to working together in any useful way, take that away and it doesn't matter one bit if his points are actually valid or not. People will not listen.

But I have to say that to me Matthew's counter to this system, if I understand it correctly, is actually worse in some ways than what Casascius is proposing. One of the main reasons that Bitcoin was created in the first place and why majority of Bitcoin users use it today is that it's a decentralized system. What Matthew is proposing requires an exchange/e-wallet to handle the transactions, which I think is totally unacceptable.

He talks about reinventing the wheel, which is funny because with Mt. Gox backing all the POS transactions we end up with a very similar setup compared to other payment methods, which include massive centralization. If this is the approach to bring Bitcoin to the mainstream, we will eventually have nothing to use for marketing that'll actually differentiate it from competing payment methods.

Even a Bit-Pay type POS payment system can be done without it requiring anything else than a functioning Internet connection and the only thing one has to rely on is the Bitcoin network. The traffic between the merchants POS system and the "Bit-Pay" servers can happen in scheduled batches, like once every hour. Bit-Pay takes the currency risk of one hour at most in that case. Unless the Bit-Pay servers are down, in which case the POS system would try again until it works. That would increase Bit-Pay's currency risk but it's their problem so it's ok.

Now correct me if I'm wrong with this. I'm trying to understand how deliberately creating a more centralized system will somehow help Bitcoin.

[casascius]

...lacking appreciation for harebrain adaptions to archaic technologies. ... The question really comes down to security. There are options that don't require going back in time to downgrade to inferior credit card processors.

How did you determine that these technologies are archaic, or that this project constitutes "hacking" the device as you have called it earlier?  Seems to me I have seen a dozen banner ads offering credit card processing showing the Vx570 terminal just in the last couple days.  I also saw the Vx570 terminal on the desktop when I picked up tacos for lunch.  I got an ad for a company running a $209 special on the Vx570 today, refurbished.  They obviously don't compare to, say, the graphical capabilities of an XBOX 360, but they do a pretty good job of what they were made for.

You say the question really comes down to security... when the Vx570 offers an available customer smartcard reader (along with 3 hidden smartcard slots where per-merchant encryption keys can be installed) as well as physically guarded tamper-proof memory (open the case and the encryption keys vanish)... what alternative do you have in mind that does a better, more secure job, at a better price?

[casascius]

Before I get into details (and you do make some good points), the better price part bothers me because I'm not sure if you understand the price of a plastic card is all a consumer would be liable for. Are we accepting that costs can be paid by developers as an investment?

What are you talking about?  Seeing as how I'm in the business, I have probably bought more plastic cards in my lifetime than minutes you have been alive, so I probably understand, and probably don't agree with you.  If you're going to respond, why not just answer the question?

[casascius]

Plastic costs vs casascius POS installation.

Your method pushes the costs onto the implementors (merchants), mine pushes the cost to the developers as an investor. What you clearly missed was that your own question 'can you do it cheaper?' is not clear because you didn't define who in fact is footing the bill. If consumers need to pay $1 for a plastic chargable card, and the developer needs to pay $40,000 for a backend system installation, it's the same thing as if a hundred people bought casascius POSs, and that's not even scalable.

Ultimately the consumer foots the bill.  As a seasoned businessman, I'm sure you understand that.

The merchant buys the terminal and also gets charged fees by the backend, that's how the developers get paid.  Sort of how Visa and Mastercard already do this.  The merchant charges for that convenience in the price of their products as a cost of doing business - as they do now for Visa and Mastercard - only it costs a lot less over the long run.  And when they sell bitcoins with their terminal, it's a profit opportunity to them, just like when they sell money orders or gift cards or lottery tickets.

A plastic card made in bulk easily costs less than a dime, cheap enough to be an inconsequential freebie, like the napkins available with every hot dog.

Security is the only remaining non-political issue I take it?

I'm not sure there's a political issue in the first place.  This thread is titled "Casascius Bitcoin POS system", the only person complaining that it's a waste of my time (as though I'm accountable to someone) is you.  I gather that most of us are wondering WTF is wrong with you.  You're worried about letting your guard down for a little spittle, you seem the only one unaware that you're already soaked chin deep in sewage of your own making.  Stop being such an asshole.  You're a smart kid in many respects, but clearly don't understand that you have to choose between the liberty of being a complete douche, or having your opinion respected, you cannot have both.  Clearly a seasoned businessman as yourself understands how this concept applies in person.  It's not too late to change, of course.

[crawdaddy]

@casascius I have a question for you. Would I, as the customer, have to upload bitcoins to a wallet located on my smartphone to use your system?

[casascius]

@casascius I have a question for you. Would I, as the customer, have to upload bitcoins to a wallet located on my smartphone to use your system?

Nope, the bitcoins wouldn't have to be in the smartphone.  For example you could just be initiating a withdrawal from MtGox or some other website.  The system would see the incoming transaction regardless of where the coins came from.

[crawdaddy]

Having a second machine would not be too hard for most stores if it saved them a few percent on some sales. 

I doubt most merchants would want a second machine just for Bitcoin. Why spend $250 for another machine when you could just have Bitcoin capability on your cell phone for free?

It needs to be integrated or it will not be used. I understand the difficulties in doing so. Someone should be able to come up with something.

You just lease it for $10 a month. Everyone would be happy.

[slothbag]

Casascius, just wondering on the status of this project?  I am very excited by the idea but I can see the github code hasn't been updated for a couple of weeks.

Will you be continuing development or are you looking for others to run with this?  I think if we have even the most simplest of functionality, display QR code and notify when payment received, then we can start carrying these devices into shops and say "hey wanna save some money, let me plug this in and show you how".

I cant really assist with C programming, but potentially can help out with the backend server / communications.

Would a bounty for this project encourage development? To get the ball rolling, I can pledge 10btc for a working end-to-end solution

[BurtW]

Mathew,  I want to let you know I really appreciate the difference in tone between your first post to this thread (#40) and your most recent post (#94).  I think you have a lot to contribute and look forward to hearing more from you here and in other threads.

[dark_st3alth]

I could see this going somewhere, as I made this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54057.msg644784#msg644784.

The problem with RFID tags you can't just say, no you can't read my card now. It can always be read unless you like sticking a sheet of metal in pocket or wallet.

I'm not sure if this is still going, but I'd be willing to help with this, not rage and be a dick like someone in this thread.

[finway]

How's this going?

[cbeast]

I'm guessing that your working on the sweep private key function. I'm starting to like this cash card idea given that we may soon see a global financial reset. We'll need a new system that's ready to go.

[molecular]

I'm guessing that your working on the sweep private key function. I'm starting to like this cash card idea given that we may soon see a global financial reset. We'll need a new system that's ready to go.

A new system? I think we will also need new money (sound money, please).