Lightning Network Discussion Thread

[msdjaw]

Should one have funds in his node to relay transactions? Does the total number of your node’s channels depend on your funds?

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[Rath_]

Should one have funds in his node to relay transactions?

Having funds in the node's on-chain wallet is not enough. You have to open channels to other nodes and have someone open a channel to you.

Does the total number of your node’s channels depend on your funds?

No. It's up to you with who you will open a channel. Some nodes reject channels under a certain value specified in the config.

[msdjaw]

Should one have funds in his node to relay transactions?

Having funds in the node's on-chain wallet is not enough. You have to open channels to other nodes and have someone open a channel to you.

Does the total number of your node’s channels depend on your funds?

No. It's up to you with who you will open a channel. Some nodes reject channels under a certain value specified in the config.

It’s more difficult than what it seems and as other said not in the spirit of decentralization

[Carlton Banks]

It’s more difficult than what it seems and as other said not in the spirit of decentralization

For lightning, you use your own keys, on your own wallet, on your own node. You can't get more decentralised than that

[msdjaw]

What is the minimum amount of funds you should have?

It’s more difficult than what it seems and as other said not in the spirit of decentralization

For lightning, you use your own keys, on your own wallet, on your own node. You can't get more decentralised than that

It is not truly decentralized when there are so limitations!

[Carlton Banks]

For lightning, you use your own keys, on your own wallet, on your own node. You can't get more decentralised than that

It is not truly decentralized when there are so limitations!

all cryptocurrencies need keys, wallets and nodes. It's inaccurate to call those "limitations", more like "requirements"

[ajas]

I should have been more precise with what I mean with decentralization:

I had a look at the graph of nodes and channels which would be used if I send a certain amount of satoshis to any node in the network.

Taking into account the current topology of the graph I will reach most of the nodes in 2 to 3 steps. On the other hand that means that all the paths pass the same small number of nodes and they have information and control on my payments.

OK, that would mean that - if I am concerned about my privacy - I should not use the standard routing but specify the path by myself.
Of course that has drawbacks: if I exclude any nodes with more than 50 open channels I will need of order 7 to 10 steps to reach the destination.

[Queenvio]

This lightning project is kind of cool and funny 

https://pollofeed.com

I remotely fed chickens for 1000 satoshis with almost no fees using the bitcoin lightning network. What did your Shitcoin do today? 

Realy nice idea. I also set up may node the last days.

Its now 5 days old and I have 0 forward transactions. But its ok, lets see what happend in the future.
The other reason I set it up is because I want to add it to my discord-bot where you can now "buy" a role for some satoshi. Just for fun !!

[msdjaw]

Do you make more money if you have a more expensive PC as a node rather than a simple Raspberry Pi? How does your system hardware affect your lighting node’s income?

[Queenvio]

Do you make more money if you have a more expensive PC as a node rather than a simple Raspberry Pi? How does your system hardware affect your lighting node’s income?

I dont think the hardware will effect it. Its relevant, that user use the route over your node.
Important is that your node is online 24/7

[msdjaw]

Do you make more money if you have a more expensive PC as a node rather than a simple Raspberry Pi? How does your system hardware affect your lighting node’s income?

I dont think the hardware will effect it. Its relevant, that user use the route over your node.
Important is that your node is online 24/7

It's only relevant when you have thousand active channels or you also run your server/payment processor on PI's as well where your PI's isn't powerful enough.

BTC Balance on your channel is also important, otherwise you might not have enough BTC to route a transaction.

How does your btc balance affect routing? I can’t understand. Do you need some btc to open channels?

[Rath_]

How does your btc balance affect routing? I can’t understand. Do you need some btc to open channels?

You can't open a channel without putting any coins inside of it. It would not make any sense otherwise. The more BTC you lock up in a channel, the more different payments you can route. Some people are complaining that they payments don't go through because many channels are too small (they don't have enough BTC) to route their payments. Your balance is not the only factor. Nobody is going to route a payment through you if you are not well-conneted and if your fee policy is not configured properly.

[malikusama]

As this is LN discussion thread i want to ask several questions.

If I have an active channel between me and one of my friend, after even hundred of transactions between us the blockchain will only record 2 transactions one for opening and second one is for closing the channel.

My question is if my amount left in multi-signature address of channel is 0 BTC, and i want to deposit more BTC for more transactions, will my existing channel will be closed? And should i need to reopen that channel? Or I can use my existing channel? And how many transactions will be recorded on blockchain?

[Rath_]

My question is if my amount left in multi-signature address of channel is 0 BTC, and i want to deposit more BTC for more transactions, will my existing channel will be closed? And should i need to reopen that channel? Or I can use my existing channel? And how many transactions will be recorded on blockchain?

Unfortunately, you can't refill an opened channel with an on-chain transaction. Lightning Conductor is a third party service which will send you coins over the LN for the on-chain ones and vice-versa. It's not possible to maintain a channel while it has 0 BTC on-chain. You can't even spend your channel's funds completely. Two percent of total channel balance is reserved and can't be spent.

[malikusama]

My question is if my amount left in multi-signature address of channel is 0 BTC, and i want to deposit more BTC for more transactions, will my existing channel will be closed? And should i need to reopen that channel? Or I can use my existing channel? And how many transactions will be recorded on blockchain?

Unfortunately, you can't refill an opened channel with an on-chain transaction. Lightning Conductor is a third party service which will send you coins over the LN for the on-chain ones and vice-versa. It's not possible to maintain a channel while it has 0 BTC on-chain. You can't even spend your channel's funds completely. Two percent of total channel balance is reserved and can't be spent.

Thanks for the clarification, i don't appreciate lightning network for this as i have to request or open a new channel whenever i have to refill it.   

[Carlton Banks]

My question is if my amount left in multi-signature address of channel is 0 BTC, and i want to deposit more BTC for more transactions, will my existing channel will be closed? And should i need to reopen that channel? Or I can use my existing channel? And how many transactions will be recorded on blockchain?

A future feature called "Splicing" will enable this functionality. It's a fairly new idea though, it will take a while to get implemented in Lightning software.

The idea is for both "Splice-In" (what you're asking for: adding on-chain funds to a pre-existing channel, without closing the channel), as well as "Splice-Out" (withdrawing funds from a channel using an on-chain tx, without closing the channel)

[malikusama]

My question is if my amount left in multi-signature address of channel is 0 BTC, and i want to deposit more BTC for more transactions, will my existing channel will be closed? And should i need to reopen that channel? Or I can use my existing channel? And how many transactions will be recorded on blockchain?

A future feature called "Splicing" will enable this functionality. It's a fairly new idea though, it will take a while to get implemented in Lightning software.

The idea is for both "Splice-In" (what you're asking for: adding on-chain funds to a pre-existing channel, without closing the channel), as well as "Splice-Out" (withdrawing funds from a channel using an on-chain tx, without closing the channel)

That's impressive, i was wondering that how they can ignore this feature.
I am expecting actual implementation of this feature in near future.

[Wind_FURY]

My question is if my amount left in multi-signature address of channel is 0 BTC, and i want to deposit more BTC for more transactions, will my existing channel will be closed? And should i need to reopen that channel? Or I can use my existing channel? And how many transactions will be recorded on blockchain?

A future feature called "Splicing" will enable this functionality. It's a fairly new idea though, it will take a while to get implemented in Lightning software.

The idea is for both "Splice-In" (what you're asking for: adding on-chain funds to a pre-existing channel, without closing the channel), as well as "Splice-Out" (withdrawing funds from a channel using an on-chain tx, without closing the channel)

This might not be relevant, but there's also an idea called "Channel Factories". The explanation can be quite complicated, but the short explanation is "they are payment channels that can be used to create more payment channels".

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/67158/what-are-channel-factories-and-how-do-they-work

The key feature of a regular payment channel is the ability to securely update the state (balance) of the channel many times without creating extra on-chain transactions, so the key feature of a Channel Factory is the ability to securely create and destroy new payment channels without creating extra on-chain transactions.

[Wind_FURY]

What? IOUs in Lightning? That's why there's a lot of misinformed newbies in the forum who believe, and argue that the Bitcoins in Lightning are IOUs or "pegged tokens". Because there are more misinformed people, who didn't do their research, writing about them, and publishing them.

https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/11/19/what-is-lightning-network-scalability/

Effectively, the Lightning Network operates by generating IOUs between the parties of a payment channel. Technically, no one actually owns the money held in that channel whilst it is open.

When it’s closed, all of those IOUs are settled, and the Bitcoin balances of all relevant parties are amended accordingly with the most up-to-date transaction record, ensuring their validity.

[HeRetiK]

What? IOUs in Lightning? That's why there's a lot of misinformed newbies in the forum who believe, and argue that the Bitcoins in Lightning are IOUs or "pegged tokens". Because there are more misinformed people, who didn't do their research, writing about them, and publishing them.

https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/11/19/what-is-lightning-network-scalability/

I don't think that IOUs are that bad a comparison, it's just misleading in that IOUs imply counterparty risk which LN pretty much nullifies (assuming you keep an eye on your channel for adversarial behaviour). While this simplification may lead to fundamental misunderstandings (as simplifications always do) I'm also not sure what other metaphors would be suitable to explain LN to the layman or laywoman.