[EXPIRED] [BOUNTY] 1000 BTC for getting a major business to accept Bitcoin

[casascius]

I am hoping that a working Bitcoin POS project - like the one I have proposed - helps pave the way for this prototypical big business to accept bitcoin.

Right now, an executive can say "I want to accept bitcoin", but he has no practical way to do it.  His employees don't understand how bitcoins work, there's no way he can be assured they won't be destroyed or stolen, and there's no simple way for his employees to know whether they've accepted a bitcoin payment.  (loading the blockchain on the retail counter isn't typically an option)

POS would change all that.  If some small machine on the countertop could beep and spit out a receipt showing that some certain funds (with an equivalent amount shown as dollars) were received... and the clerk could CYA (cover his ass) by sticking that receipt in the register as though it were equivalent to federal reserve notes... and the boss knew that the bitcoins were safe on the block chain and only he can access them... then he might just bite.  Without that, it's just not practical yet.

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[2112]

POS would change all that.  If some small machine on the countertop could beep and spit out a receipt showing that some certain funds (with an equivalent amount shown as dollars) were received... and the clerk could CYA (cover his ass) by sticking that receipt in the register as though it were equivalent to federal reserve notes... and the boss knew that the bitcoins were safe on the block chain and only he can access them... then he might just bite.  Without that, it's just not practical yet.

I'm not sure if you are joking or never maintained auditable accounts for an enterprise.

Slips of paper in the register are for mom&pops and to protect against petty crime. To be considered serious you need to produce an audit trail on the accounting server in conformance with the GAAP. Everything else will be dismissed as too prone to the white-collar crime.

[ercolinux]

POS would change all that.  If some small machine on the countertop could beep and spit out a receipt showing that some certain funds (with an equivalent amount shown as dollars) were received... and the clerk could CYA (cover his ass) by sticking that receipt in the register as though it were equivalent to federal reserve notes... and the boss knew that the bitcoins were safe on the block chain and only he can access them... then he might just bite.  Without that, it's just not practical yet.

I'm not sure if you are joking or never maintained auditable accounts for an enterprise.

Slips of paper in the register are for mom&pops and to protect against petty crime. To be considered serious you need to produce an audit trail on the accounting server in conformance with the GAAP. Everything else will be dismissed as too prone to the white-collar crime.

Before a milion $ company can use bitcoin, as explained some posts ago by nmat, they must be widely used by smaller ones to avoid big prices fluctuaction. In this way the POS idea of Casascius can works very well.
When hundreds of small shops will use bitcoins the price will mantain more stable and so bigger shops/firms could enter the game.
Anyway a digital POS can be easily interfaced to an external software to make audit trail at near 0 cost.
But, as explained, IMHO the path to follow is

 small shops/private -> medium shops/small companies -> big shops/medium companies -> everyone

[mizerydearia]

Before a milion $ company can use bitcoin, as explained some posts ago by nmat, they must be widely used by smaller ones to avoid big prices fluctuaction. In this way the POS idea of Casascius can works very well.
When hundreds of small shops will use bitcoins the price will mantain more stable and so bigger shops/firms could enter the game.
Anyway a digital POS can be easily interfaced to an external software to make audit trail at near 0 cost.
But, as explained, IMHO the path to follow is

 small shops/private -> medium shops/small companies -> big shops/medium companies -> everyone

That's interesting to point that out.  It gives small/local businesses opportunity to establish success (in affiliation with bitcoin cryptocurrency) before large corporations/monopolies.

[P4man]

Rather than wasting your time trying to "convince" large corporations to accept something, it would be better to spend your time (and bounty) on more realistic targets and get sites or organisations to accept btc regardless of their size. Particularly sites or organisations accepting donations are a good candidate for this. Ive contacted Democracy Now and The Real News network. I have never heard back from DN, but TRNN has looked in to it, and recently told me they are likely to implement it. Do they make $100 million? No, probably not 1/10th of that,  but they do reach 10s of 1000s of viewers, many of whom might be sympathetic to an alternative currency.  Rome wasnt built in one day, but if organisations like TRNN start accepting BTC and spreading the word, thats a mighty big step in the right direction IMHO. Spamming Bestbuy or Wallmart will do nothing.

[2112]

Before a milion $ company can use bitcoin, as explained some posts ago by nmat, they must be widely used by smaller ones to avoid big prices fluctuaction.

This is just wishfull thinking. The clasic counter-example is the failed "web currency" beenz, which was used almost exclusively by huge companies. Stability is one thing. The other is fraud-resistance. The big businesses actually have money and skill to audit the source code.

You can scam a small businessman into believing that the bitcoin doesn't allow chargeback. Big businessman will hire somebody to read the code and will ask pointed questions like: what is this code doing erasing transactions and removing money from my wallet?

Big businessman also knows that a self-deluded enthusiast is completely indistinguishable from a persuasive and skilled scammer.

[casascius]

POS would change all that.  If some small machine on the countertop could beep and spit out a receipt showing that some certain funds (with an equivalent amount shown as dollars) were received... and the clerk could CYA (cover his ass) by sticking that receipt in the register as though it were equivalent to federal reserve notes... and the boss knew that the bitcoins were safe on the block chain and only he can access them... then he might just bite.  Without that, it's just not practical yet.

I'm not sure if you are joking or never maintained auditable accounts for an enterprise.

Neither.  I have also never performed heart surgery.  I'm a software engineer, not an accountant, and not a heart surgeon.

Slips of paper in the register are for mom&pops and to protect against petty crime. To be considered serious you need to produce an audit trail on the accounting server in conformance with the GAAP. Everything else will be dismissed as too prone to the white-collar crime.

Slips of paper are an example of a control.  Organizations of all sizes use them.  When I make a deposit into my bank, they want a deposit slip.  If I eat at Olive Garden, the slip I sign is their evidence supporting the tip charge against my credit card.  Neither of these organizations are what most people would call mom-n-pop.  I'm not an accountant, but I employ accountants, and at no time has any of them told me that GAAP mandates the abandonment of paper records.  Which would be pretty silly to begin with.

A good Bitcoin POS system would produce a paper record which could be used where appropriate (or disabled if not needed), and would also offer detailed records online, on the back-end website supporting the service.

[ercolinux]

Before a milion $ company can use bitcoin, as explained some posts ago by nmat, they must be widely used by smaller ones to avoid big prices fluctuaction.

This is just wishfull thinking.

Obviously: no one can tell when, if, and how many would adopt bitcoin in future. But IMO the path should pass from little-mid companies.

The clasic counter-example is the failed "web currency" beenz, which was used almost exclusively by huge companies.

beenz was totally different from bitcoin: centralized and more similar to fidelity point in his structure than to a true monetary system.

Stability is one thing. The other is fraud-resistance. The big businesses actually have money and skill to audit the source code.
You can scam a small businessman into believing that the bitcoin doesn't allow chargeback. Big businessman will hire somebody to read the code and will ask pointed questions like: what is this code doing erasing transactions and removing money from my wallet?

I don't get the point 
Bitcoin is secure enough for transactions. Online transactions and big money movements can be approved with a sufficent number of confirmation to make them absolutely non-fraudable. The code is open sourced so is readable by everyone.
Why do you think that there is a fraud risk?

Big businessman also knows that a self-deluded enthusiast is completely indistinguishable from a persuasive and skilled scammer.

Again don't get the point 

[2112]

Why do you think that there is a fraud risk?

The fraud risk is because bitcoind(.exe) doesn't produce a proper audit trail.

Various gullible or crafty code monkeys peddle modified bitcoin programs that tamper with the basic functionality of the protocol (most often related to the chain reorganization).

I'm actually very thankfull that Gavin Andresen strenously defends the code and doesn't accept the patches that would interfere with the chain reorg logic. It allows any professional to quickly dismiss idiots and crooks: just ask how their software handles chain reorganization and how they tested it.

It does really matter whether the particular bitcoin-related software was designed by an idiot or a crook. The observable end result will be the same: the smart people wont buy it.

[fimp]

sirius, would a non-profit qualify? Kiva.org seems interested.

[2112]

Neither.  I have also never performed heart surgery.  I'm a software engineer, not an accountant, and not a heart surgeon.

Yeah, this is currently a problem in the USA. Anyone can call themselves a "software engineer". Even to legally cut hair one has to obtain a proper "cosmetologist license" and show proficiency in disinfecting and delousing his tools of trade.

You should have taken at least basic accounting class before trying to sling the accounting software. Any self respecting professional will ask you questions about how you tested it. I'm thinking that you will have answers of the type: "positive energy", "only love" & "chain reorganizations will never happen, right guys?" This is very sad but common situation in the bitcoin millieu: a programmer wants to design financial software but is proud of not knowing how to do proper accounting.

I think the liability laws in the USA are generally a problem. But in your particular case they will be just what required to teach you how to design and test software for accounting.

Take a few accounting classes before you write the software. It will be cheaper for you overall.

[casascius]

Neither.  I have also never performed heart surgery.  I'm a software engineer, not an accountant, and not a heart surgeon.

You should have taken at least basic accounting class before trying to sling the accounting software. Any self respecting professional will ask you questions about how you tested it. I'm thinking that you will have answers of the type: "positive energy", "only love" & "chain reorganizations will never happen, right guys?" This is very sad but common situation in the bitcoin millieu: a programmer wants to design financial software but is proud of not knowing how to do proper accounting.

Oh hell, give me a break. No need to be such a jerk. If I produce something that sucks, feel free to criticize it.  But you are pre-criticizing what you think I might produce if I produced it. Are you a licensed fortune teller?  I didn't think so. So you can zip it.

[2112]

Oh hell, give me a break. No need to be such a jerk. If I produce something that sucks, feel free to criticize it.  But you are pre-criticizing what you think I might produce if I produced it. Are you a licensed fortune teller?  I didn't think so. So you can zip it.

No, I'm not a fortune teller. But I'm a sworn and licensed hunter of scammers. Thus your future product is of great interest to me. The fishy smell is alrady emanating from the blueprints. The whole haz-mat team may be required when the actual product launches.

Or you can just take an accounting class.

It is your choice.

[BurtW]

2112 is one smart guy, he seems to know everything about everything!  2112, not everyone is as smart as you are.  Most of us work in teams where each person is an expert at one thing.  Casascius admits he does not know everything about everything like you do - that is why he is forming a team to work on the project.  You have made one point:  a real POS system will need to be better than what we have now.  We all know this, so basically you have contributed exactly zero so far.

[casascius]

But I'm a sworn and licensed hunter of scammers.  Thus your future product is of great interest to me. The fishy smell is alrady emanating from the blueprints.

This is an open source project, not a personal product.  You are more than welcome to contribute your expertise to the "blueprints" at the Wiki, or fork yourself a copy of the source code at github.  It's pretty hard to scam somebody by releasing work as open source.

[evoorhees]

I doubt that any business with 100 millions USD of revenue would accept bitcoins right now. Do you realize how much a 1% shift in Bitcoin price (which happens everyday) would affect the company? Million dollar companies don't play the roulette with their revenues. Every dollar is accounted for.

It's important for people to understand that exchange rate risk has been virtually eliminated by at least one company, Bit-pay.com.  They are an ideal candidate to provide the merchant solution for any sizable business. They enable the business to receive the Bitcoins automatically converted into USD instantly.

Some might say, "well then what's the point of accepting btc at all?" And the answer of course is that this is a gradual process. We need to help companies step by step. Show them that bitcoins aren't scary. After they are used to the Bitcoin world, some will opt to keep a portion of earnings as Bitcoins. But again, this is is a gradual process.

Also, the most likely way someone can claim this bounty, is if someone has a personal/professional connection to a decision maker at a medium sized business. Who do you know? Who do they know? Set up a meeting and discuss. Describe the advantages of Bitcoins from a merchant perspective (no chargebacks, lower fees, acceptable from anyone anywhere - even Ivory Coast and Ukraine).

OP - thanks for setting up this ambitious bounty!

[2112]

It's pretty hard to scam somebody by releasing work as open source.

Actually the opposite is true. Open source makes it extremely easy to scam the unsuspecting by making subtle changes.

MKS Software NuTCRACKER is an example response to the popularity of the scams rooted in subtle modifications of the OSS. They pretty much sell their premim versions of telnet, ftp, etc. but unlike their competitors test that thoroughly.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you that forking things will cure all the problems. Finance is probably the third (after aerospace and healthcare) in terms of strict testing and liability requirements.

You are doing a lot of excellent design. But somehow you convinced yourself that willfull disregard for principles of accounting is a virtue.

[2112]

OK, this thread because of my involvement had devolved into something bad. I apologize.

I want to repeat my quote from Gavin Andresen's speech:

we don't much care if you don't approve of the software we write

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koIq58UoNfE

and about 1:25 into the clip.

Please ponder about this a little bit. All I was trying to say is the attitude like that is preventing the smart businesses from getting involved in bitcoin.

[BurtW]

Agreed, and that needs to change.  So, what we need is real software that meets all the requirements (audit, feature, safety, etc.) of the customers.  Real software that correctly addresses the block reorg issues, etc. that you brought up, whether open source or not.  We will need someone like you (2112), who obviously seems to know what sort of testing and validation is required, to help out in that area.  I have a lead for a large customer (buddy is one of the VPs) that I am working on.  I will keep everyone posted on the questions they ask me.  Even if they don't sign on it will be very interesting to go through the process and see exactly where all the roadblocks are.

[nmat]

I doubt that any business with 100 millions USD of revenue would accept bitcoins right now. Do you realize how much a 1% shift in Bitcoin price (which happens everyday) would affect the company? Million dollar companies don't play the roulette with their revenues. Every dollar is accounted for.

It's important for people to understand that exchange rate risk has been virtually eliminated by at least one company, Bit-pay.com.  They are an ideal candidate to provide the merchant solution for any sizable business. They enable the business to receive the Bitcoins automatically converted into USD instantly.

Yes, bit-pay is the only acceptable way of doing it. Proposing Bitcoin to a big company without mentioning bit-pay would never work (also, don't forget that bit-pay is limited to US only).