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Author Topic: BTCpay Server: A Real e-Commerce Game Changer?  (Read 319 times)
JollyGood
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July 16, 2018, 11:21:34 AM
Merited by dbshck (4), ETFbitcoin (1)
 #1

BTCPay Server: https://github.com/btcpayserver/

Could this spell the end (or be the beginning of the end) for payment processors such these:

Gateway            Acc      Fee     $2,500    $5,000    $10,000    $25,000

Bitpay               YES      1%     $25.00    $50.00    $100.00    $250.00
Bitcoinpay          YES      0.8%  $20.00    $40.00    $80.00     $200.00
Coingate            YES      1%    $25.00    $50.00    $100.00    $250.00
Coinpayments     YES      0.5% $12.50    $25.00     $50.00     $125.00
SetGetGo            NO      $1.66  $1.66     $1.66      $1.66       $1.66

So the most appealing to an ecommerce merchant from the above list would be SetGetGo simply because they charge a fixed fee of $1.66 regardless of the amount of transaction (final fee the customer pays at checkout). The problem with SetGetGo is that their pricing structure fails when merchants offer micro-payments. For example if a merchant sells an item for $1 then how can they pay $1.66 to SetGetGo as they would make a loss.

So while it might suit any ecommerce platform that have minimum amounts to checkout to use SetGetGo the margin between using Coinpayments (the lowest fixed fee from the list above at 0.5%) and SetGetGo (fixed $1.66 fee) is the breakeven point: A rate of 0.5% of $334 a customer will pay using Bitcoin at checkout is = $1.67 therefore anything above $334 makes sense to use SetGetGo. Anything below a $334 final checkout amount for customers using Bitcoin will be better to use whichever plugin works for your cart (Coinpayments at 0.5% is the lowest)

I have not carried out any research on reviews about the level of customer services and withdrawal fees for any Bitcoin merchant providers, I have only taken transaction fees in to consideration only so for further information you will have to do your own research.

Which now brings us to BTCPay Server. Is it a real game changer? First of all this is how BTCPay Server works:

(taken from a Reddit post) Think of BTCPay as a server which allows you to accept bitcoin without intermediates. The payment processors act as a server as well, but your customer's data, IP addresses go through them. Furthermore, most of the payment processors hold your crypto payments, and you’d have to withdraw it or convert it, similar to what exchanges do.

Benefits

    You are running a full node and helping the network

    You are protecting the privacy of your customers

    You’re using Bitcoin the way it’s supposed to be used, p2p, directly

    You’re avoiding fees that all payment processors have (monthly subscription/fees per transaction usually 1-2%)

    You can accept payments directly to your hardware wallet (currently integrated with Ledger very well) and you’re the immediate owner of those assets

    You can be a host and help other smaller shops accept payments through their stores

    You can accept other cryptocurrencies through BTCPay directly (Litecoin) and over 40 currencies if you enable shapeshift integration

    You will be able to accept Lightning Network payments

    Multiple merchants can have the same server and host their stores there, though this raises the issue of trust

Disadvantages

    It currently costs around 50-70$ per month (the cost varies depending on the server you’re using, it can be as low as 30$ )

    It takes a bit more time to setup and configures to fit your store needs, (took 3-4 hours for myself, I’m not particularly tech-savvy).

    You can not convert to fiat currency right away like with some payment processors, though in my personal opinion, the immediate conversion ruins the whole point of accepting bitcoin and does not increase the adoption.

How BTCPay works?

Currently, there are three basic elements of the puzzle:

    The server

    The plugin

    The wallet

You’re running your own server which has the full node running; the server is called BTCPay. Once installed it will be connected to your website subdomain. The plugin connects your server to your Woocommerce Store. In the plugin settings, you can set most of the stuff. A bit more advanced setting can be configured on the server. Your receive payments to your wallet (it’s possible to configure Ledger Nano S right out of the box).

This means that the buyer, pays directly to you in cryptocurrency and that the payment does not go anywhere else, the IP address is not leaked, the buyer data is not shared with a third party in any way. You will see the payment in your ledger wallet.

BTCPay is not the only solution to accept cryptocurrency directly, but after months of trying out, I found it the safest and the easiest to configure.

List of merchants using BTCPay

    9bravos.com

    bitcoinshirt.co

    Coincards.ca

    CryptoAsylum.com

    halongmining.com

    ludvigart.com

    ynotek.com

Useful Links

    BTCPay Website

    BTCPay Server Test page - feel free to connect your store and test it out

    BTCPay Slack

    BTCPay Github

    BTCPay on Twitter

    BTCPay on YouTube
(end of Reddit post)

On their Github is shows the following coins as being accepted alongside Bitcoin:

    BGold
    Dogecoin
    Feathercoin
    Groestlcoin
    Litecoin
    Monacoin
    Polis
    UFO

The coins are optional, QR codes are generated instantly by clicking the coin icon. I have not looked at how the ShapeShift integration works. According to the Reddit post it might seems optional but it does not seem to have an affiliate link on rollover or URL when opening ShapeShift. Personally I read so many negative reviews about ShapeShift I decided to use Changelly the few times I needed to. When clicking ShapeShift it opens a new pop up and allows customers to swap their coin to the method of payment with ease. Maybe will not look so smooth when using a mobile/cellphone with limited screen size. I am using a PC so have a larger screen to view.

BTCpay has a great looking UI and had lots going for it. According to their Github they have plugins for:

  WooCommerce
  Drupal
  Prestashop
  WHMCS

If they release plugins for Opencart, Zencart, osCommerce and Magento then basically they have the main players. With the majority of ecommerce websites running on Wordpress/Woocommerce they already have taken a huge step forward to offer a massive percentage of ecommerce traders with their already released plugin.

Have your own personal transaction fee free Bitcoin payment system by paying for an MS Azure running your node versus Using a third party payment plugin and not paying any MS Azure server fees to run your own node but instead paying transaction fees and/or withdrawal fees from your merchant. Either way you will spend money as merchants, if not in advance for the server/node then later after transactions take place.

So what are your views of innovations such as BTCPay compared with older crypto payment processors?

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Creating a Bitcoin client that fully implements the network protocol is extremely difficult. Bitcoin Core and some of its derivatives are the only known safe implementations of full nodes. Some other projects attempt to compete, but it is not recommended to use such software for anything serious. (Lightweight clients like Electrum and Bither are OK.)
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July 16, 2018, 11:45:47 AM
Merited by dbshck (2)
 #2

CheapAir dropped Coinbase as their payment processor few days ago and decided to use BTCPayServer instead so we're definitely in the right path. It's just a matter of time until open source and decentralized projects will take over in the crypto scene, centralized services will become obsolete.

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July 16, 2018, 12:31:14 PM
 #3

CheapAir dropped Coinbase as their payment processor few days ago and decided to use BTCPayServer instead so we're definitely in the right path. It's just a matter of time until open source and decentralized projects will take over in the crypto scene, centralized services will become obsolete.

CheapAir probably dropped Coinbase because of the 1% fee that Coinbase charge but that is after the first $1 million in transactions if memory serves me correct.

I tested their service, CheapAir offer Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin and Dash as methods of payment.

For Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin and Dash the QR code is genertated on https://gateway.gocoin.com

For Bitcoin the QR code is generated on: btcpayserver.cheapair.com

Seems like the team implementing the plugins are not making full use of the facility that BTCPay Server provides. Why on earth would they use two plugins, one that is effectively free (BTCPay) and the other (Gocoin) that they pay merchant fees to?

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July 16, 2018, 07:42:48 PM
Merited by dbshck (2)
 #4

In the unlikely event I were to start my own business, BTCPay Server is almost certainly the route I'd go.  Better decentralisation, fewer middlemen and potential cost saving benefits as the icing on the cake.  

I think if more people only realised this was an option available to them, the payment processors would have to start considering the long-term sustainability of their business model.  Pretty much the only benefit they have left is the instant conversion to fiat.  And if fiat does become less desirable over time as the global economy worsens, they'll have no advantage remaining.

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September 08, 2018, 06:48:09 PM
Merited by dbshck (2)
 #5

I don't think BTCPay Server will be a valid replacement for third party payment processors.
Here it is the list of my thoughts resulting from my experience with BTCPay server:

- You need to configure and deploy, maintain and monitor the server by yourself. This is not as trivial as it may sound. You need to start he wallets, connect the job to the wallet and deploy everything.

- Even pushing everything on Azure VMs, you will still incur in Microsoft to sporadically restart the VMs/Cloud services/Web apps and this would potentially generate downtime and errors during the daily payments processing.From my standpoint, this is not acceptable for a payment processor service.

- You will still need to monitor/upgrade the Wallet(s) that BTCPay is attached to manage the payment requests.

Adopting a third party payment processor, all the points enlisted above are completely covered by the payment processor itself and that is not trivial. Obviously you will probably have to pay a service fee for this which depends by the processor itself.

I think instead, that what is important to consider when you chose a Bitcoin processor is what that processor really offers in terms of functionality set, fees applied, how reliable this processor is.

In the list payment processor enlisted, there are really well known processors like Bitpay, Coingate, etc, I see a processor I didn't hear about before SetGetGo. Interesting they apply a flat fee. As far as I can tell no other processors do that. The real question would be how reliable SetGetGo is.

Does anybody actually use SetGetGo for Bitcoin payments?
 
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November 21, 2018, 06:36:30 PM
 #6

Please also add Blockonomics - Pricing :1%.

We are direct to wallet/permissionless payment gateway and well known in the ecosystem

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November 21, 2018, 07:01:51 PM
 #7

I think that smaller merchants are still better off with some payment processor. Running a server with bitcoind is not cheap, especially on Azure. I guess you can find some cheap solution online for like 20$ a month but would you really trust that provider than...
On the other side, if you are larger processor with a lot of transactions each month, this will save a lot of money.
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November 21, 2018, 08:01:55 PM
 #8

SetGetGo here, we added support Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin and Dash. We also adopted KYC/AML practices and moved away from our own wallets to Bip-32/HD wallets, so money goes directly from the client's wallet to the merchant's wallet (no middleman holding your funds!).

Furthermore, we improved our fixed-fee pricing structure to be flexible and way more predictable from the merchant's perspective and yet still completely independent of the amounts being processed:

Startups - Up to 100 transactions / month - Free
Business - Up to 1,000 transactions /month - $100
Enterprise - Up to 10,000 transactions /month - $500
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November 21, 2018, 08:03:41 PM
 #9

In the unlikely event I were to start my own business, BTCPay Server is almost certainly the route I'd go.  Better decentralisation, fewer middlemen and potential cost saving benefits as the icing on the cake.  

I think if more people only realised this was an option available to them, the payment processors would have to start considering the long-term sustainability of their business model.  Pretty much the only benefit they have left is the instant conversion to fiat.  And if fiat does become less desirable over time as the global economy worsens, they'll have no advantage remaining.

Yes it seems the best way forward for those who have some tech knowledge rather than use 3rd party plugins

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January 05, 2019, 04:29:40 PM
 #10

SetGetGo here, we added support Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin and Dash. We also adopted KYC/AML practices and moved away from our own wallets to Bip-32/HD wallets, so money goes directly from the client's wallet to the merchant's wallet (no middleman holding your funds!).

Furthermore, we improved our fixed-fee pricing structure to be flexible and way more predictable from the merchant's perspective and yet still completely independent of the amounts being processed:

Startups - Up to 100 transactions / month - Free
Business - Up to 1,000 transactions /month - $100
Enterprise - Up to 10,000 transactions /month - $500


Interesting but the fact small transactions are part of the inclusive transactions package means that merchants could effectively be losing out by covering fees from their own pockets.

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January 05, 2019, 10:25:46 PM
 #11

In the unlikely event I were to start my own business, BTCPay Server is almost certainly the route I'd go.  Better decentralisation, fewer middlemen and potential cost saving benefits as the icing on the cake.  

I think if more people only realised this was an option available to them, the payment processors would have to start considering the long-term sustainability of their business model.  Pretty much the only benefit they have left is the instant conversion to fiat.  And if fiat does become less desirable over time as the global economy worsens, they'll have no advantage remaining.

Yes it seems the best way forward for those who have some tech knowledge rather than use 3rd party plugins

It's not fair to say this. Installing and supporting a product the likes of BTCPay is non-trivial. If you are a small merchant then you most likely do not have the technical expertise to do this, after all your business is your business and not maintaining BTCPay. No doubt, folks with significant technical expertise (I am assuming you are in this category) don't have a problem handling the ins and outs of running one's own node, installing BTCPay, debugging it, customizing it et cetera, but for mom & pop running a vape store it's an entirely different ballgame.
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January 05, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
 #12

SetGetGo here, we added support Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin and Dash. We also adopted KYC/AML practices and moved away from our own wallets to Bip-32/HD wallets, so money goes directly from the client's wallet to the merchant's wallet (no middleman holding your funds!).

Furthermore, we improved our fixed-fee pricing structure to be flexible and way more predictable from the merchant's perspective and yet still completely independent of the amounts being processed:

Startups - Up to 100 transactions / month - Free
Business - Up to 1,000 transactions /month - $100
Enterprise - Up to 10,000 transactions /month - $500

Interesting but the fact small transactions are part of the inclusive transactions package means that merchants could effectively be losing out by covering fees from their own pockets.

Can you clarify what you mean here? An example or two would help me understand your point and hopefully make changes on our side to improve our offering.
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January 05, 2019, 10:48:02 PM
 #13

In the unlikely event I were to start my own business, BTCPay Server is almost certainly the route I'd go.  Better decentralisation, fewer middlemen and potential cost saving benefits as the icing on the cake.  

I think if more people only realised this was an option available to them, the payment processors would have to start considering the long-term sustainability of their business model.  Pretty much the only benefit they have left is the instant conversion to fiat.  And if fiat does become less desirable over time as the global economy worsens, they'll have no advantage remaining.

Yes it seems the best way forward for those who have some tech knowledge rather than use 3rd party plugins

It's not fair to say this. Installing and supporting a product the likes of BTCPay is non-trivial. If you are a small merchant then you most likely do not have the technical expertise to do this, after all your business is your business and not maintaining BTCPay. No doubt, folks with significant technical expertise (I am assuming you are in this category) don't have a problem handling the ins and outs of running one's own node, installing BTCPay, debugging it, customizing it et cetera, but for mom & pop running a vape store it's an entirely different ballgame.

This is not exactly true. I worked with BTCPay last week just to try it out, and you don't have to manage anything. Its designed to be a drop-in replacement for Bitpay, so any services working with Bitpay (ecommerce plugins, APIs etc) will also work with BTCPay.
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January 06, 2019, 01:14:31 PM
 #14

In the unlikely event I were to start my own business, BTCPay Server is almost certainly the route I'd go.  Better decentralisation, fewer middlemen and potential cost saving benefits as the icing on the cake.  

I think if more people only realised this was an option available to them, the payment processors would have to start considering the long-term sustainability of their business model.  Pretty much the only benefit they have left is the instant conversion to fiat.  And if fiat does become less desirable over time as the global economy worsens, they'll have no advantage remaining.

Yes it seems the best way forward for those who have some tech knowledge rather than use 3rd party plugins

It's not fair to say this. Installing and supporting a product the likes of BTCPay is non-trivial. If you are a small merchant then you most likely do not have the technical expertise to do this, after all your business is your business and not maintaining BTCPay. No doubt, folks with significant technical expertise (I am assuming you are in this category) don't have a problem handling the ins and outs of running one's own node, installing BTCPay, debugging it, customizing it et cetera, but for mom & pop running a vape store it's an entirely different ballgame.

But for anyone who is prepared to learn, they'll save some money by cutting out the middleman.  I see why you feel the need to defend your business model, but at the end of the day, there is a cost for utilising your service.  You have to maintain a profit margin and that profit comes directly from your customers paying you to do something they could be doing themselves.

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January 07, 2019, 01:21:28 AM
 #15

It's definitely interesting, and I'll be staring/bookmarking this for future clients (as I have had this requested in the past).
I don't know if it's going to spell the end for services like BitPay; just simply because I know there's a huge sense of security when it comes to having a service hosted for you vs. you hosting it yourself; along with the fact a developer would most likely have to be hired to set this up.

Like others have mentioned, for the business owners who are willing to learn, it's definitely worth it.

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JollyGood
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January 07, 2019, 01:37:49 AM
 #16

SetGetGo here, we added support Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin and Dash. We also adopted KYC/AML practices and moved away from our own wallets to Bip-32/HD wallets, so money goes directly from the client's wallet to the merchant's wallet (no middleman holding your funds!).

Furthermore, we improved our fixed-fee pricing structure to be flexible and way more predictable from the merchant's perspective and yet still completely independent of the amounts being processed:

Startups - Up to 100 transactions / month - Free
Business - Up to 1,000 transactions /month - $100
Enterprise - Up to 10,000 transactions /month - $500

Interesting but the fact small transactions are part of the inclusive transactions package means that merchants could effectively be losing out by covering fees from their own pockets.

Can you clarify what you mean here? An example or two would help me understand your point and hopefully make changes on our side to improve our offering.

I mean if a merchant had 1001 transactions a month which were mini-payments that accumulated to be worth less than $500 but they ended up paying as a loss.

0.0001 BTC x 1001 transactions = 0.1001 BTC

0.1001 BTC = $380 today

SetGetGo charge for 1001 transaction at 0.0001 BTC = $500

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eckmar
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January 08, 2019, 05:05:13 PM
 #17

It's definitely interesting, and I'll be staring/bookmarking this for future clients (as I have had this requested in the past).
I don't know if it's going to spell the end for services like BitPay; just simply because I know there's a huge sense of security when it comes to having a service hosted for you vs. you hosting it yourself; along with the fact a developer would most likely have to be hired to set this up.

Like others have mentioned, for the business owners who are willing to learn, it's definitely worth it.

Guys, you don't need to learn anything/pay anyone. If you don't want to bother at all, BTCPay also has Azure 1-click Deploy (Costs are about 15-20EUR per month, after fully deployed). Now tell me thats not more affordable than any provider. For 20EUR a month, no installation process (Simple click of a button) you can process as many transactions as you want with same compatibility as BitPay's API !
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January 08, 2019, 05:07:37 PM
 #18

It's definitely interesting, and I'll be staring/bookmarking this for future clients (as I have had this requested in the past).
I don't know if it's going to spell the end for services like BitPay; just simply because I know there's a huge sense of security when it comes to having a service hosted for you vs. you hosting it yourself; along with the fact a developer would most likely have to be hired to set this up.

Like others have mentioned, for the business owners who are willing to learn, it's definitely worth it.

Guys, you don't need to learn anything/pay anyone. If you don't want to bother at all, BTCPay also has Azure 1-click Deploy (Costs are about 15-20EUR per month, after fully deployed). Now tell me thats not more affordable than any provider. For 20EUR a month, no installation process (Simple click of a button) you can process as many transactions as you want with same compatibility as BitPay's API !

Would this handle automatic updates as well? Because they would at least have to understand basic operation/maintenance of it once installed if not.

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eckmar
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January 08, 2019, 08:30:52 PM
 #19

It's definitely interesting, and I'll be staring/bookmarking this for future clients (as I have had this requested in the past).
I don't know if it's going to spell the end for services like BitPay; just simply because I know there's a huge sense of security when it comes to having a service hosted for you vs. you hosting it yourself; along with the fact a developer would most likely have to be hired to set this up.

Like others have mentioned, for the business owners who are willing to learn, it's definitely worth it.

Guys, you don't need to learn anything/pay anyone. If you don't want to bother at all, BTCPay also has Azure 1-click Deploy (Costs are about 15-20EUR per month, after fully deployed). Now tell me thats not more affordable than any provider. For 20EUR a month, no installation process (Simple click of a button) you can process as many transactions as you want with same compatibility as BitPay's API !

Would this handle automatic updates as well? Because they would at least have to understand basic operation/maintenance of it once installed if not.

I don't think there are automatic updates (why would you let anyone push files on your server anyway ?), but I assume that everyone is capable of copy/pasting files from github...
g-uid
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January 17, 2019, 06:13:12 PM
 #20

SetGetGo here, we added support Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin and Dash. We also adopted KYC/AML practices and moved away from our own wallets to Bip-32/HD wallets, so money goes directly from the client's wallet to the merchant's wallet (no middleman holding your funds!).

Furthermore, we improved our fixed-fee pricing structure to be flexible and way more predictable from the merchant's perspective and yet still completely independent of the amounts being processed:

Startups - Up to 100 transactions / month - Free
Business - Up to 1,000 transactions /month - $100
Enterprise - Up to 10,000 transactions /month - $500

Interesting but the fact small transactions are part of the inclusive transactions package means that merchants could effectively be losing out by covering fees from their own pockets.

Can you clarify what you mean here? An example or two would help me understand your point and hopefully make changes on our side to improve our offering.

I mean if a merchant had 1001 transactions a month which were mini-payments that accumulated to be worth less than $500 but they ended up paying as a loss.

0.0001 BTC x 1001 transactions = 0.1001 BTC

0.1001 BTC = $380 today

SetGetGo charge for 1001 transaction at 0.0001 BTC = $500

Your scenario is purely theoretical, see average transaction volume on BTC network:

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionvalue.html

That said, if the scenario you have conjured becomes the norm then we will facilitate it in a manner where our clients needs are satisfied (as we have done time and again in the past).

Very much appreciate the ideas though, thanks!
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