Theymos is taking illegal ads from a ponzi scheme - MakeBtc.org

[OgNasty]

Theymos is accepting illegal ads from a ponzi scheme - makebtc.org.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=450959.20

It's obviously a ponzi scheme. I'm not sure what his jurisdiction is, but it is most likely illegal to have a ponzi scheme.

I pm-ed him and got no response.

If the website was labeled as gambling it would be legal in some jurisdictions. However it is not.

As he is making money from advertising the scam, he is morally and legally responsible for it.

How much BTC have you donated to keep the forum running? None? Then be happy someone is paying the bills.

[1714695322]

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[1714695322]

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[Silverspoon]

If ponzi scheme is illegal in everywhere, why are there a lot of ponzi threads on Gambling board? Either ban all ponzi threads and ads or allow them. If threads are allowed, ads should be allowed too.

There are things that people try not to do, without needing laws to specifically prohibit them.  Farting at the theater is one such thing.  Advertising Ponzis is another.  I swear, this is like arguing with a 4-year-old.

Yeah, I absolutely feel like I'm arguing with a 4 year old when I'm replying
to your endless hate posts. Nothing wrong has been done here, if you don't
like it, go somewhere else. That's how life works. Nobody is forcing you to
use a forum that's advertising something you dislike.

Lol, the "NO U!" rebuttal.  Next you'll be tying ur own shoelaces.
As tedious as this is, I'll repeat:
I use Bitcoin.
What you do on this forum affects Bitcoin.
You're fine with shitting up where you sleep, but the rest of us have to deal with the stench.

No, letting you continue your aspie doings ain't happening.  You brag about your freedomz to rape and get raped, but when "OMG surprise butsecs!" finally happens, you run whining to the media and the law.  And then shit press, new regulations, and everyone ragequits.

Latest Wired article ends on:
"Meanwhile, Bitcoin users are dealing with the bankruptcy in their own way: by creating a new currency to buy and sell rights to the lost bitcoins, should they ever be recovered." (implicit )
Followed by comments which could be tersely summed as "ROFL!"

[Vortuarackne]

There's a difference between a Ponzi; a scam disguised as a genuine investment opportunity and a gambling site using the ponzi model.

In a true ponzi the scheme collapses when the funds dry up and the owner general is never to be seen again, in a gambling game using the ponzi model, rounds are restarted when the funds dry up and things start up all over again.

There is a massive difference - that being the players are aware of the risks and potential consequences of playing. The early players of the round make money, and the later players lose out. The "skill" involved, is depositing early in every round.

Perhaps "ponzi" is the wrong word - these are ponzi-type games.

[theMiracle]

^
No.  We are asking Theymos to stop promoting Ponzi schemes on this forum.  

[apsvinet]

If ponzi scheme is illegal in everywhere, why are there a lot of ponzi threads on Gambling board? Either ban all ponzi threads and ads or allow them. If threads are allowed, ads should be allowed too.

There are things that people try not to do, without needing laws to specifically prohibit them.  Farting at the theater is one such thing.  Advertising Ponzis is another.  I swear, this is like arguing with a 4-year-old.

Yeah, I absolutely feel like I'm arguing with a 4 year old when I'm replying
to your endless hate posts. Nothing wrong has been done here, if you don't
like it, go somewhere else. That's how life works. Nobody is forcing you to
use a forum that's advertising something you dislike.

Lol, the "NO U!" rebuttal.  Next you'll be tying ur own shoelaces.
As tedious as this is, I'll repeat:
I use Bitcoin.
What you do on this forum affects Bitcoin.
You're fine with shitting up where you sleep, but the rest of us have to deal with the stench.

No, letting you continue your aspie doings ain't happening.  You brag about your freedomz to rape and get raped, but when "OMG surprise butsecs!" finally happens, you run whining to the media and the law.  And then shit press, new regulations, and everyone ragequits.

Latest Wired article ends on:
"Meanwhile, Bitcoin users are dealing with the bankruptcy in their own way: by creating a new currency to buy and sell rights to the lost bitcoins, should they ever be recovered." (implicit )
Followed by comments which could be tersely summed as "ROFL!"

I couldn't decipher 1 single reasonable argument out of the bunch of letters you just mashed together in that last reply.
"You brag about your freedoms to rape and get raped, but when "OMG surprise butsecs!" finally happens, you run whining to the media and the law."
What medications are you on that made you type a nonsense sentence like that?
The owner of the site is allowed to do whatever he wants with it as long as it's not illegal, which it's not.
All your arguments have been smashed to pieces and you're left here, embarrassed, having fled to a newbie account that you just created
to not lose your own reputation, jumping on others and throwing wild insults and obscenities their way.

You lost.

[apsvinet]

^
No.  We are asking Theymos to stop promoting Ponzi schemes on this forum.  

Go ahead, and once again explain to us what the difference
between a ponzi and another gambling site is, and I will,
once again, explain why you're wrong.

[theMiracle]

@apsvinet
I have never explained the difference between gambling websites and Ponzi websites, foolishly assuming I was dealing with adults.
My apologies, here you go:

A gambling website does not misrepresent itself as a form of investment, as makebtc.org, the website in question, does.
Since you can not be trusted to follow imbedded links, I'll quote some of the relevant text:

"MakeBTC's unique investment system allows you to provide yourself with future wealth!  You will earn residual bitcoin income over time as the website evolves."
(boldface added 4 extra lulz, color added because otherwise u'd miss it)

As far as your inability to "decipher a bunch of letters" -- those are called "words."
The ability to synthesize letters into words, and, in turn, derive meaning from the aforementioned, is called "reading and understanding" -- a skill set you traded in for your exciting life of huffing paint and "investing" in Ponzis.

Jeez.

[apsvinet]

@apsvinet
I have never explained the difference between gambling websites and Ponzi websites, foolishly assuming I was dealing with adults.
My apologies, here you go:

A gambling website does not misrepresent itself as a form of investment, as makebtc.org, the website in question, does.
Since you can not be trusted to follow imbedded links, I'll quote some of the relevant text:

"MakeBTC's unique investment system allows you to provide yourself with future wealth!  You will earn residual bitcoin income over time as the website evolves."
(boldface added 4 extra lulz, color added because otherwise u'd miss it)

As far as your inability to "decipher a bunch of letters" -- those are called "words."
The ability to synthesize letters into words, and, in turn, derive meaning from the aforementioned, is called "reading and understanding" -- a skill set you traded in for your exciting life of huffing paint and "investing" in Ponzis.

Jeez.

Haha, once again the miserable people who have to create newbie accounts fail to support their statements with argument, therefore directly jump to insulting anyone who claims they're wrong.
We're not ( Atleast I'm not ) discussing the website that's advertised itself, but rather ponzis in general. Gambling is when you risk your money in exchange for a chance of getting it back with an added profit. ( Ponzis, rolling dice, playing poker ).

Thanks for your input tho, I'm sure someone cares.

[theMiracle]

Look at the subject of this thread, up there^

Kids, reading is basic...

OP, original post:

Theymos is accepting illegal ads from a ponzi scheme - makebtc.org.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=450959.20
...

* If you must continue parading your boss reading skillz and your fascinating thoughts on Ponzis in general, start a new thread.  This thread, as you've just been told, is about a particular instance of the awesomeness that is Ponzi -- MakeBTC.org.

[apsvinet]

Kids, reading is basic...

OP, original post:

Theymos is accepting illegal ads from a ponzi scheme - makebtc.org.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=450959.20
...

I know what the discussion originally was about, however what I spoke about with the other newbie account when you interfered and tried to save his embarrassed face was not about makebtc.org, if you would've read the posts and understood the context, you'd know.

Remember, reading is basic.

[surfer43]

That is the "I'm not guilty because I didn't know it was against the law" argument. It's like saying "I didn't know the white powder was an illegal drug".  Good luck with that one.

And for $1000 of advertising, he could spare 1 hour to investigate it.

You are welcome to sell drugs here as long as they are legal where you are selling them. Online Gambling is illegal in a lot of places too, its up for the users not to engage in any activity that is illegal in their jurisdiction. The world is a big place with a lot of differing laws. Theymos knows that not everyone here is from the U.S, E.U, Turkmenistan, you name it. You can't lump what is legal/illegal to the entire world. If it is indeed a ponzi, and ponzis are illegal in your jurisdiction, don't partake. If you live somewhere where they don't care if you want to invest your money into a ponzi, go for it.

I don't think that's how it works. Are the servers hosted in Antarctica?  

[jambola2]

How is allowing ponzi's advertisements illegal ?
He clearly states that "Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction."

[SaltySpitoon]

That is the "I'm not guilty because I didn't know it was against the law" argument. It's like saying "I didn't know the white powder was an illegal drug".  Good luck with that one.

And for $1000 of advertising, he could spare 1 hour to investigate it.

You are welcome to sell drugs here as long as they are legal where you are selling them. Online Gambling is illegal in a lot of places too, its up for the users not to engage in any activity that is illegal in their jurisdiction. The world is a big place with a lot of differing laws. Theymos knows that not everyone here is from the U.S, E.U, Turkmenistan, you name it. You can't lump what is legal/illegal to the entire world. If it is indeed a ponzi, and ponzis are illegal in your jurisdiction, don't partake. If you live somewhere where they don't care if you want to invest your money into a ponzi, go for it.

I don't think that's how it works. Are the servers hosted in Antarctica?  

Nope, hosting is in the U.S, UK or Panama. I've heard all three tossed around. You can sell/advertise/buy things that are illegal in other countries, if you market them towards customers who live where whatever you are buying/selling isn't illegal. The site is a content neutral website that has multi national users. Theymos can't sell drugs/illegal things in the U.S himself through the forum, but individual users are allowed to do whatever is legal in their own jurisdiction.

I'm baffled by the amount of people that want to regulate what others can and can't do based on their own country's jurisdiction. If selling Beef is illegal for Indian members (in some states in India) should we ban it for the rest of the forum?

[theMiracle]

...You can sell/advertise/buy things that are illegal in other countries, if you market them towards customers who live where whatever you are buying/selling isn't illegal...

No matter how many times you repeat that, it's still as wrong as it was the first time.  Quoting to save time:

It's not clearcut, but here's a good place to start if you're simply curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_jurisdiction_in_Internet_cases_in_the_United_States
If, (as is the case with this forum), there is substantial financial exposure, obviously consult a real attorney.
In short, claims that "you can advertise anything, as long as it is legal in the seller's jurisdiction" are clearly false.
...

If you want to discuss the rationality of your argument (which has nothing to do with IRL law), your reasoning goes something like this:

You:     Your honor, though this is an English forum administered by an American person, from American soil, the advertising is aimed at MARTIANS.
Judge:  Say what?
You:     Martians, your honor.  Does Mars have a body of law regarding Ponzi schemes?
Judge:  Whata...
You:     Huh, thought not!  Well, the ads are intended for Martians, where Ponzis are perfectly legal.
Judge:  I see...  Well, that certainly puts a new spin on things... ... wirrr...  *smoke pours out of Judge's louvered vents*
You:     Checkmate! *smile triumphantly*

Is this how you think law works, Salty?

@surfer43 (below)  No, they are illegal, period.
What you are describing is some of the ways they are prosecuted.  Full text you're quoting from here: http://www.ftc.gov/public-statements/1998/05/pyramid-schemes

The scheme in question, MakeBTC.org, is also clearly misrepresenting itself as an investment:
"MakeBTC's unique investment system allows you to provide yourself with future wealth!  You will earn residual bitcoin income over time as the website evolves."

Fraudulent scheme is fraudulent.

[surfer43]

To set the record straight, Ponzi Schemes / Pyramid Schemes are only illegal in the United States of America if they are prosecuted under the following pretences:

The U.S. Department of Justice, in collaboration with investigative agencies like the FBI and the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, prosecutes pyramid schemes criminally for mail fraud, securities fraud, tax fraud, and money laundering.(8)

State officials independently file cases in state court, often under specific state laws that prohibit pyramids. California defines pyramids as "endless chains" and prohibits them under its laws against illegal lotteries.(9) In a slightly different vein, Illinois classifies pyramid schemes as criminal acts of deception directed against property.(10) Some states like Georgia prohibit pyramid schemes under a statutory framework that regulates business opportunities and multilevel marketing.(11)

At the Commission, we bring cases against pyramid schemes under the FTC Act, which broadly prohibits "unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce."(12) That Act allows the Commission to file suit in federal court and seek a variety of equitable remedies, including injunctive relief, a freeze over the defendants' assets, a receivership over the defendants' business, and redress or restitution for consumers.

So as we can see, the non-deceptive ponzi schemes on this forum are generally only illegal in the U.S. under anti-gambling laws.

[nrd525]

>>Theymos can't sell drugs/illegal things in the U.S himself through the forum, but individual users are allowed to do whatever is legal in their own jurisdiction.

I'm guessing there are some US laws against this.  Probably some anti-terrorism ones (otherwise users could sell each other weapons of massive destruction that are legal in their area / or donate money to Hezbollah).

I'm guessing there is a list of products that it isn't legal to advertise for sale on US based websites even if they are legal in other countries. I'm guessing this list would include drugs and possibly heavy weapons.

[nrd525]

Btcweb.com stopped hosting makebtc.org on my request.

[roslinpl]

Theymos is accepting illegal ads from a ponzi scheme - makebtc.org.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=450959.20

It's obviously a ponzi scheme. I'm not sure what his jurisdiction is, but it is most likely illegal to have a ponzi scheme.

I pm-ed him and got no response.

If the website was labeled as gambling it would be legal in some jurisdictions. However it is not.

As he is making money from advertising the scam, he is morally and legally responsible for it.

How much BTC have you donated to keep the forum running? None? Then be happy someone is paying the bills.

Indeed anyway I can't see anything wrong with this....
He is selling ad space... so what?

[apsvinet]

...You can sell/advertise/buy things that are illegal in other countries, if you market them towards customers who live where whatever you are buying/selling isn't illegal...

No matter how many times you repeat that, it's still as wrong as it was the first time.  Quoting to save time:

It's not clearcut, but here's a good place to start if you're simply curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_jurisdiction_in_Internet_cases_in_the_United_States
If, (as is the case with this forum), there is substantial financial exposure, obviously consult a real attorney.
In short, claims that "you can advertise anything, as long as it is legal in the seller's jurisdiction" are clearly false.
...

If you want to discuss the rationality of your argument (which has nothing to do with IRL law), your reasoning goes something like this:

You:     Your honor, though this is an English forum administered by an American person, from American soil, the advertising is aimed at MARTIANS.
Judge:  Say what?
You:     Martians, your honor.  Does Mars have a body of law regarding Ponzi schemes?
Judge:  Whata...
You:     Huh, thought not!  Well, the ads are intended for Martians, where Ponzis are perfectly legal.
Judge:  I see...  Well, that certainly puts a new spin on things... ... wirrr...  *smoke pours out of Judge's louvered vents*
You:     Checkmate! *smile triumphantly*

Is this how you think law works, Salty?

@surfer43 (below)  No, they are illegal, period.
What you are describing is some of the ways they are prosecuted.  Full text you're quoting from here: http://www.ftc.gov/public-statements/1998/05/pyramid-schemes

The scheme in question, MakeBTC.org, is also clearly misrepresenting itself as an investment:
"MakeBTC's unique investment system allows you to provide yourself with future wealth!  You will earn residual bitcoin income over time as the website evolves."

Fraudulent scheme is fraudulent.

You absolute idiot.

Nobody stated that you could advertise anything you wanted as long as it was legal in whatever country you were DIRECTING the ads towards, which is what your made up stupid scenario is implying.
Get your facts straight and stop putting words in people's mouths.
You've already lost, give up.

[theMiracle]

@apsvinet:  Your spergy antics are becoming unbearable.  if you don't stop spamming this instant and delete your posts, I'm calling your parents.
You have been warned, young lady