Why do people trust Locust and Tenebrix?

[Lolcust]

I'm sure many people are in my boat, and a lot of them even can't read code.

Just in case you (and some others) missed the memo - I only vaguely can read it, too With a dictionary

You can probably do better than me.

So one thing I certainly am not - I am not the guy with any ability to gain "inside info"

[ripper234]

What if Satoshi Nakamoto sold his premined coins? It would be just the same...
You can't trust anyone...

Satoshi doesn't have pre-mined coins. He only minded a tiny amount (anyone knows how much) before the entire project was made completely open source, talked about it cryptography discussion groups, etc... It's not his fault we haven't heard about it until recently.

True, he surely has a large stash, but those aren't pre-mined, not by my definition anyway. He has earned those coins.

[Lolcust]

True, he surely has a large stash, but those aren't pre-mined, not by my definition anyway. He has earned those coins.

That is argument from ethics not economics.

For a market, it doesn't matter if Satoshi mined them, conjured them through premine, or just plain got them from a fairy.

What matters from economic perspective  is that if he so desires, he can crash BTC value to nothing by selling off.

And, apparently, the BTC market cares about that just as much as TBX market cares about me, that is, it does not.


And I don't know if his stash is already on exchange or not, he didn't, as far as I know, consolidate stuff on one address so that people can track its movements (I did, because autotrack folks asked me).

P.S.:

I don't understand why this is true.

Because trader has his funds on exchange, and his grandma is first to get "TBX gunna diiiieee selll selllll!" memo.

I am unlikely to be in the first row as to the memo, and my funds aren't on the exchange (see BE), so I'm unlikely to be the first to run and even when I start running, I'll have to wait quite some time before it even becomes technically possible to sell (confirmation accumulation), thus getting beaten to exit by everyone + grandma.

Once again, you gloss over / ignore technical details

[CoinHunter]

What matters from economic perspective  is that if he so desires, he can crash BTC value to nothing by selling off.

And, apparently, the BTC market cares about that just as much as TBX market cares about me, that is, it does not.
[/b]

And I don't know if his stash is already on exchange or not, he didn't, as far as I know, consolidate stuff on one address so that people can track its movements (I did, because autotrack folks asked me).

Except Satoshi invested years of his life into the project so people have a little more faith in him doing right by the currency. You spent one afternoon with artforz and changed a few parameters, gave yourself 7 million coins and put together an automated site from a template and now think you're in the same boat as him.

You're not. Trying to draw parallels between him and you is quite ludicrous, he has some talent and gave a gift to the world, you just want to scam people and get rich.

[ripper234]

Not good enough. If you decide to really sell out, those people will just watch your dust. You can sell off everything in a split second.

Now that is just plain wrong on a factual level

Please let me know how do I magically sell coins faster than an exchange confirms incoming fund transfer (it's pretty trivial to see that stuff is not on exchange) which with 5 min/block is definitely not a split second.

No offense, but you seem to be glossing over vital technical details, hopefully unintentionally.

Well said, I stand corrected. Still:

1. Do we have proof that the pre-mined coins aren't already at an exchange of sorts? Perhaps even an exchange that will pop up later? I don't know who owns btc-e, perhaps you're the owner and those coins are there already. If not, you can start another exchange tomorrow. In this scenario, you can really sell everything off instantly.
2. Suppose the coins aren't in any exchange, and that it takes you 10 minutes to move them to an exchange. Would a significant part of TBX holders be aware and sell their holdings before you do? If their holdings aren't on an exchange, it would take them longer than you to move them. I'm not sure a 10 minute window is enough to defend against you selling off the pre-mined coins.
[/quote]

   Any particular reason not to provide such credentials?

Ever heard of Republic of Belarus?

Do enlighten me.

I can understand why Satoshi stays hidden, his idea is a real breakthrough that will collapse whole organizations (banking, paypal, etc...), so he should very well stay hidden to avoid persecution. I don't think TBX is innovative on that caliber, so even if successful, people won't hire assassins to kill you. I hope.

So... you both believe that bitcoin will destroy "classic" banking (and paypalbomination), and you think that multi-billion companies are petty enough to hire hitmen to seek vengeance upon Satoshi (an act that would only make BTC more popular, and make them somewhat less popular)?

I am afraid our worldviews diverge quite radically... And that makes finding common ground harder

I think in 10-20 years, Bitcoin could eliminate a lot of the fat in a lot of financial organizations. And that if I were the inventor of such a currency, I would want to remain very well hidden. Imagine a disgruntled bank owner that just lost 1 billion dollars over a few years "because of Bitcoin". Is it inconceivable to imagine he would try to avenge? I don't think this is plausible, mind you, but I understand why Satoshi would want to eliminate the possibility.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Easy. People hate the fact Bitcoin early adopters "got rich" or "will get rich", so they seek an alternative. SolidCoin isn't really an alternative (The IRC chat between CoinHunter and Gavin showed that to a lot of people). NameCoin isn't well developed yet. Basically TBX is the only alternative I'm aware of that has an exchange and a GUI client

So by your logic they hate system with phat first-adopters so much that they move to a system with even phatter first-adopters ?

Well, IMHO that makes no sense.

But then, IMHO, neither does first-adopter hate so there is a probability you have unique insight into that mindset.

People do not "make sense", or act logically. IMO it is probable that people will be jealous of early adopters but still would like the chance to become early adopters themselves.

Not really. Everyone buying or selling any stock or commodity is basically say that the market is wrong at the current price level. If I buy Google stocks at whatever price, it's because I think they will be worth more tomorrow ... in effect, they're worth more now to me than the market believes

Well, markets are just so designed that they inherently sorta-kinda with  current value (there are ways around, like shorting, but they still hinge on current value+agent's belief about future)

Market isn't wrong, it's just stating that current value is X. If you believe that circumstances will force it to reconsider at a later date, you can act accordingly, but at this moment, market isn't wrong - market is never really "wrong" or "right". Market simply is

I sort of agree. But I hope you agree that a person can "disagree with the market valuation". So if he disagrees, and he thinks valuation Y is "correct", then he subjectively thinks the market is "wrong". Anyway, meta point, not really on topic.

[ripper234]

+1 to this entire thread. There's always fairbrix though..

Does Fairbrix have an exchange?

[Lolcust]

What matters from economic perspective  is that if he so desires, he can crash BTC value to nothing by selling off.

And, apparently, the BTC market cares about that just as much as TBX market cares about me, that is, it does not.
[/b]

And I don't know if his stash is already on exchange or not, he didn't, as far as I know, consolidate stuff on one address so that people can track its movements (I did, because autotrack folks asked me).

Except Satoshi invested years of his life into the project so people have a little more faith in him doing right by the currency. You spent one afternoon with artforz and changed a few parameters, gave yourself 7 million coins and put together an automated site from a template and now think you're in the same boat as him.

How is your Coin Police doing ? 

You're not. Trying to draw parallels between him and you is quite ludicrous, he has some talent and gave a gift to the world, you just want to scam people and get rich

Now this is libel.

Put up some evidence, shall you ?

[CoinHunter]

Now this is libel. Put up some evidence, shall you ?

Haha libel, right. You failed to mention when you "created" TBX that there were premined coins, just like with GG. Thieves try to hide their activities, and it isn't until someone found out the truth did you "confirm it".

The irony is all your trolling and hacking activities are going to undo you and anything you support. The only sad thing here is the people who believe your lies and fairy tales.

Let's see what happens over the coming days to TBX..... and what your excuse will be.

[Lolcust]

1. Do we have proof that the pre-mined coins aren't already at an exchange of sorts? Perhaps even an exchange that will pop up later? I don't know who owns btc-e, perhaps you're the owner and those coins are there already. If not, you can start another exchange tomorrow. In this scenario, you can really sell everything off instantly.

Errr, btc-e consolidates its incomings, so it is trivial to prove my stuff is separate.

Now, owning my own exchange would require me either to engage in some serious confirmation fiddlery or other scheme that is apparent in BEX, and generally problematic when folks are watching the stash automatically. Stuff getting added to the fund gets noticed as well as stuff withdrawn.

Also, I'd need a veryhuge pet exchange to sell off any meaningful portion of fun-d.

2. Suppose the coins aren't in any exchange, and that it takes you 10 minutes to move them to an exchange.

2 confirms ?

What kind of madman runs that ?

Would a significant part of TBX holders be aware and sell their holdings before you do? If their holdings aren't on an exchange, it would take them longer than you to move them. I'm not sure a 10 minute window is enough to defend against you selling off the pre-mined coins.

Typical confirm limit for exchanges is around 5, especially since recent shenanigans.

So I am exceedingly unlikely to sell off in less than 25 minutes unless a supernatural force helps me.

Do enlighten me.

You know, since 2010, even going online without registering your MAC with govt is a major offense (not to mention fiddling with crypto without State license), and our president premines votes via "thugs v 1.0" and "Pig horde aka police state v 1.1" exploits

I think in 10-20 years, Bitcoin could eliminate a lot of the fat in a lot of financial organizations. And that if I were the inventor of such a currency, I would want to remain very well hidden. Imagine a disgruntled bank owner that just lost 1 billion dollars over a few years "because of Bitcoin". Is it inconceivable to imagine he would try to avenge? I don't think this is plausible, mind you, but I understand why Satoshi would want to eliminate the possibility.

I find both scenarios fairly fantastic

People do not "make sense", or act logically. IMO it is probable that people will be jealous of early adopters but still would like the chance to become early adopters themselves.

Well, like I said, you might have an insight into a unique mindset. I just find that...far fetched as far as hypotheses go.

I sort of agree. But I hope you agree that a person can "disagree with the market valuation". So if he disagrees, and he thinks valuation Y is "correct", then he subjectively thinks the market is "wrong". Anyway, meta point, not really on topic.

Mkay

[Lolcust]

Now this is libel. Put up some evidence, shall you ?

  You failed to mention when you "created" TBX that there were premined coins, just like with GG. Thieves try to hide their activities, and it isn't until someone found out the truth did you "confirm it".

LOL, I stated the existence of "protecshun fun-d" from moment 0, so your pathetic speculations are pathetic.

The irony is all your trolling and hacking activities are going to undo you and anything you support.

"My" hacking?

Boy, that's quite flattering.

Also, a guy who steals electricity from miners by taking away coins generated by their efforts for "protection phun-d" is in no position to lecture anyone on ethics, due to being a petty electricity thief

At least my fund was made via my electricity, for which I paid.

[kano]

What matters from economic perspective  is that if he so desires, he can crash BTC value to nothing by selling off.

And, apparently, the BTC market cares about that just as much as TBX market cares about me, that is, it does not.
[/b]

And I don't know if his stash is already on exchange or not, he didn't, as far as I know, consolidate stuff on one address so that people can track its movements (I did, because autotrack folks asked me).

Except Satoshi invested years of his life into the project so people have a little more faith in him doing right by the currency. You spent one afternoon with artforz and changed a few parameters, gave yourself 7 million coins and put together an automated site from a template and now think you're in the same boat as him.

You're not. Trying to draw parallels between him and you is quite ludicrous, he has some talent and gave a gift to the world, you just want to scam people and get rich.

Um ... that's exactly what you did with SC1.0
Although I do agree with the comments, you happen to be making them about yourself also ...
(which is why I don't trust SC2.0 - people don't change)

[bulanula]

7.7 million is too much coins IMHO.

[Lolcust]

7.7 million is too much coins IMHO.

You said 10% of max possible coinage is okay.

Tenebrix has no mining-limit, so max coinage is above 136 billions.

I am well within the limits you have arbitrarily ordained in your comments in TBX main thread.

[ripper234]

7.7 million is too much coins IMHO.

You said 10% of max possible coinage is okay.

Tenebrix has no mining-limit, so max coinage is above 136 billions.

I am well within the limits you have arbitrarily ordained in your comments in TBX main thread.

I don't think the max coinage is relevant. If you'll dump your coins in three months, you will cause a permanent crash in TBX, so nobody will care what max coinage TBX may or may not have.

[Lolcust]

7.7 million is too much coins IMHO.

You said 10% of max possible coinage is okay.

Tenebrix has no mining-limit, so max coinage is above 136 billions.

I am well within the limits you have arbitrarily ordained in your comments in TBX main thread.

I don't think the max coinage is relevant. If you'll dump your coins in three months, you will cause a permanent crash in TBX, so nobody will care what max coinage TBX may or may not have.

Nah, bulanula specifically said that 10% of all possible coins is fine with him in adjacent thread. He doesn't like them smarty mathematications that much 

P.S.:
And we've been through market-crash argument.

Any market I care to think of has agents who could crash it at a press of a button. Including BTC.

The market cares not.

Neither should anyone.

[Spacy]

7.7 million is too much coins IMHO.

You said 10% of max possible coinage is okay.

Tenebrix has no mining-limit, so max coinage is above 136 billions.

I am well within the limits you have arbitrarily ordained in your comments in TBX main thread.

You really think someone will still mine TBX in 100 year from now? 

[Lolcust]

7.7 million is too much coins IMHO.

You said 10% of max possible coinage is okay.

Tenebrix has no mining-limit, so max coinage is above 136 billions.

I am well within the limits you have arbitrarily ordained in your comments in TBX main thread.

You really think someone will still mine TBX in 100 year from now? 

Why not ?

Stranger things happen with markets all the time.

[bulanula]

7.7 million is too much coins IMHO.

You said 10% of max possible coinage is okay.

Tenebrix has no mining-limit, so max coinage is above 136 billions.

I am well within the limits you have arbitrarily ordained in your comments in TBX main thread.

You really think someone will still mine TBX in 100 year from now? 

Why not ?

Stranger things happen with markets all the time.

Yeah sure !

[k9quaint]

The first botnet that realizes they can take whatever they want from Tenebrix will solve the problem of Lolcust having 7.7 million coins.

[Lolcust]

The first botnet that realizes they can take whatever they want from Tenebrix will solve the problem of Lolcust having 7.7 million coins.

That problem, game theory has solved already.

I complimented it with classic lock-ins just in case