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Author Topic: A crypto currency you can't store?  (Read 1177 times)
Ritual (OP)
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February 20, 2014, 12:50:51 PM
 #1

Hello all,

Just musing on an idea that I had while sinking a few cold ones yesterday. Not thought through to any great depth, and possibly fundamentally stupid, but here goes.... Smiley

Real currency works because it moves. Recession is when money moves more slowly, and boom is when money moves more quickly. Yes, I am aware that is far too simplistic, but nevertheless. Currency is there to be spent.

So what about a crypto currency that was based on a need to move? Coins kept in cold storage or unmoved for a certain period of time would "migrate" back to being mineable again. No more dead coins, lost wallets are not taking coins permanently out of circulation....

Value would be propped up by adoption as a real currency, which in turn would be driven by the need to move the coins on.

Stupid idea?

Rit.

PS: Oh, and I have no idea how one would go about creating a currency like this. I am no coin maker Smiley

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February 20, 2014, 12:53:37 PM
 #2

It's a different idea wheather it works or not depends but theres only one way to find out.

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February 20, 2014, 12:58:12 PM
 #3

Maybe idea is not stupid. But it wont work, as many buyers want to keep their currencies and hold for some time...

So I guess currency that you think about will not have many adopters
Ritual (OP)
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February 20, 2014, 01:08:45 PM
 #4

Yep, I hear ya. The inability to store it for long period of time would certainly deter some of the long-term speculators.

But that's also kinda the point. People holding onto Bitcoin for dear life and not spending it is what will ultimately drive the value of the coin down. If it's not being spent, it won't be adopted by vendors, making it less useful and desirable.

Only my opinion ofc Smiley

Oh, and it needs a name! Anyone got suggestions?

Rit.

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February 20, 2014, 01:18:33 PM
 #5


If you turn it on it's head then all you are suggesting is a coin with perpetual inflation.

If a coin inflates by 5% a year then by keeping money in a cold wallet for a year you are 'migrating' 5% of your coin worth back to minable coins.  Smiley
Ritual (OP)
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February 20, 2014, 01:21:16 PM
 #6

Glerant - very interesting view! I admit I am no economist, and probably don't understand very well how currency even works in the real world, so this could br utterly flawed. It's just an idea Smiley But still, could you elaborate a bit?

Rit.

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bitaxed
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February 20, 2014, 01:25:10 PM
 #7

@ritual You are a keynesian. Please, cure your kleptomania.
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February 20, 2014, 01:54:34 PM
 #8


You are confusing moving and spending money.
What is the point of moving money from an address to an other ? None.

You are talking about spending money. The best way to force people to spend money is to devalue or stabilise the value. The total opposite of Bitcoin and its clone because on long term their value increase.

Ritual (OP)
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February 20, 2014, 02:25:56 PM
 #9

@bitaxed: It appears that I am - there's a thing! Smiley Not kleptomania though! Never even heard of it before now hehe.

@superresistant: I assure you that I am NOT confusing them. I may have phrased what I wrote a bit simplistically, but I am not that naive. However, neither am I an economist, so perhaps the clarification was fair enough Smiley

And wrt to Bitcoin, while I can see what you are saying, the flaw there is that if everyone adopts the same attitude to Bitcoin - i.e. that it's value will increase over time, so HODLing is the best thing to do - then it becomes stagnant, which can only drive the value down.

I'm not trying to defend the idea or lambast Bitcoin, btw - it's just AN idea, put out there for discussion. Even if I come off looking like a total moron in the end, it's still worth it for the education if nothing else Grin

Rit.

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February 20, 2014, 02:59:53 PM
 #10

I'm pretty sure that someone already did something similar to this. Anyone remember the name of the coin?

You had to at least move your coins (possibly back into your own wallet) once per year to prove that the wallet wasn't lost. If not, your coins would disappear and go back into the general pool to be mined again or something.
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February 20, 2014, 03:05:54 PM
 #11

I'm pretty sure that someone already did something similar to this. Anyone remember the name of the coin?
You had to at least move your coins (possibly back into your own wallet) once per year to prove that the wallet wasn't lost. If not, your coins would disappear and go back into the general pool to be mined again or something.

Just create a service that move your coin automatically and that's useless.
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February 20, 2014, 03:08:07 PM
 #12

I'm pretty sure that someone already did something similar to this. Anyone remember the name of the coin?
You had to at least move your coins (possibly back into your own wallet) once per year to prove that the wallet wasn't lost. If not, your coins would disappear and go back into the general pool to be mined again or something.

Just create a service that move your coin automatically and that's useless.

Alright, accepted. That too can be worked around though.

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February 20, 2014, 03:58:50 PM
 #13

This thread actually highlights some of (finite) crypto currencies long-term economic flaws.

For example, in the case of Bitcoin, once all 21 million Bitcoins are in circulation the process of diminishing availability is in fact inevitable.

Most agree that this actually makes the remaining supply of Bitcoins even more valuable for a time i.e. rarity vs scarcity etc. and that you can still ofc spend 0.00001 of a Bitcoin etc.

However, this does eventually become an issue: "You cannot trade in diminishing intangibility", well you can, although not at an ever increasing level of 'value'.

When something finite isn't being produced anymore, eventually their will be nothing left. Fact.

Ironically, it is in fact the finite nature of Bitcoin that actually gives it most of its intrinsic value in the first place.

Yes we can't.  Cheesy

...

I'm pretty sure that someone already did something similar to this. Anyone remember the name of the coin?

You had to at least move your coins (possibly back into your own wallet) once per year to prove that the wallet wasn't lost. If not, your coins would disappear and go back into the general pool to be mined again or something.

I have also given much thought to this long-term 'problem' and looked at ways to try and avoid this situation without effecting this finite value.

We humans actually cause most of the diminishing availability issues; we loose our wallet passwords, we leave our laptops on the subway, we leave 0.00000001 transaction in wallets that we abandon because they are 'worthless' (which all add up eventually) and sadly we also die, sometimes unexpectedly and without leaving a last will and testament etc., ...

The solution ?

See: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/04/google-death-a-tool-to-take-care-of-your-gmail-when-youre-gone/274934/

"Google has now rolled out a technological solution, a euphemistically titled "Inactive Account Manager" tool ("Control what happens to your account when you stop using Google," the company says, i.e. die)."

This is where the best solution is probably found. A wallet should contain a slider where its owner selects a period of time that determines if coins from the balance have not been spent within X duration and then automatically 'will' the balance to X specified address.

It would also be possible to do this against coin age i.e. something similar to a proof-of-stake mechanism - we can call this a Proof-of-Transaction

Again, if coins have not been spent from the balance within X number of years then the balance would be automatically spent (perhaps distributed as transaction fees over time) and would therefore go back to the miners and back into active circulation. The 'default' value could be set at 100 years.

This is actually very difficult to implement as it is vulnerable to something similar to a time travel attack on the blockchain, as well as numerous other factors.

  Smiley

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Ritual (OP)
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February 20, 2014, 05:05:50 PM
 #14

wow, great post...nice to see one of the heavy hitters weighing into my humble discussion Smiley

Yeah, I agree - the blockchain idea in it's current form couldn't handle this type of implementation - it's too close to reversing a transaction. The slider idea is a damn good one though...it could just be implemented as an automated transaction I suppose. However, the downside is that everyone would automatically set it to 10 thousand years or something :/ I guess the way around that is to make the maximum length of time rather small (comparatively). Of course then people would simply make auto-systems to get around that too...which I guess you could solve with a system which enforces interactivity (a captcha would be an over-simplistic example).

Sorry for Tolkien-esque sentence above. Musing out loud.

Times like this I wish I was a cryptographer/coder genius. I'm sure the idea has merit...

Any input appreciated! Including "You're an idiot, Ritual" (which I now know is going to pop up in a post within 30 seconds Tongue)

Rit.

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February 20, 2014, 05:09:18 PM
 #15

There is already demurrage, but that just destroys them instead of making them mineable again. Basically backwards Proof of Stake

Ritual (OP)
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February 20, 2014, 05:15:23 PM
 #16

Just read a little on demurrage. Interesting!

I'd favour a return of the "dead" coins to the supply though. It makes mining viable for a very long time, and mining validates the transactions, so it seems like it would add some long-term interest for the treasure hunters.

I think it'd also help with the coin being adopted, as the perceived disadvantage of not being an early adopter would be much less severe.

Definitely learning by the seat of my pants today, probably picking almost everything up wrong, but this topic is the most interesting conversation I've had all month Tongue

Rit.

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February 20, 2014, 06:41:41 PM
 #17

So is anyone working on a coin of this type? Seems like it would be a fairly big project - definitely more than cloning another scrypt coin.

If so, I would like to be involved Smiley I am no coder or technician, but I can write - might be of some use for docs or tech copy.

Rit.

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February 20, 2014, 07:56:36 PM
 #18

Errr. Ever heard of freicoin
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February 20, 2014, 08:06:05 PM
 #19

So you're just now becoming aware of a basic topic in the economics of currencies after thinking that you had invented it independently but you'd still like to go forward on making your own anyway? Do you understand why that's not a good idea?

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February 20, 2014, 08:20:48 PM
 #20


If you turn it on it's head then all you are suggesting is a coin with perpetual inflation.

If a coin inflates by 5% a year then by keeping money in a cold wallet for a year you are 'migrating' 5% of your coin worth back to minable coins.  Smiley


inflation is not realy good for a coin. sure it is natural, bot not when percents goes up...
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